Random Packer News & Notes

[hitnhope]

Just now, pgwingman said:

 

As far as the huge holes on the roster, I've said it before and I'll say it again. It is just dang hard to manage a roster when you never pick in the top 10 and pick 20th-30th in 80% of your drafts. 

Yet other GM's manage to do a better job of it consistently.   Our front office/Coaching staff is extremely over rated.   TT in his last couple years started the problems and Gute has really been no better.   The acceptance of unacceptable performance by our leadership is the root of the problem.  ST cost us a number of runs toward a SB.  Defense has been below par and it is simply accepted.

Last year Detroit was the worst defense in the league the first half of the 2022 season.   They fired their defensive coordinator and finished the year strong.  They didn't accept the bad results and were accountable, we aren't accountable.   The difference between an organization on the rise versus an organization on the fall.

[hitnhope]

5 minutes ago, Ham Sammich said:

This just isn't true. Either the 2020 or '21 teams were good enough to win it all. Rodgers, himself, wasn't good enough to cross the finish line. 

BS.   You can't lay all of the blame at the feet of the league MVP.  You can't have it both ways.   

We still rolled out poor ST that cost us in 1 year, and will still put a defense on the field that simply is not SB winning caliber.   

Your narrative here is convenient but the type of thinking that leads to teams continuously coming up short.

[Packerraymond]

9 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

BS.   You can't lay all of the blame at the feet of the league MVP.  You can't have it both ways.   

We still rolled out poor ST that cost us in 1 year, and will still put a defense on the field that simply is not SB winning caliber.   

Your narrative here is convenient but the type of thinking that leads to teams continuously coming up short.

He wasn't an MVP in the playoffs, he was good in 2020, but not great, and pretty damn poor in 2021. Regular season MVP's are irrelevant in the playoffs. 

[pgwingman]

5 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

Yet other GM's manage to do a better job of it consistently.   Our front office/Coaching staff is extremely over rated.   TT in his last couple years started the problems and Gute has really been no better.   The acceptance of unacceptable performance by our leadership is the root of the problem.  ST cost us a number of runs toward a SB.  Defense has been below par and it is simply accepted.

Last year Detroit was the worst defense in the league the first half of the 2022 season.   They fired their defensive coordinator and finished the year strong.  They didn't accept the bad results and were accountable, we aren't accountable.   The difference between an organization on the rise versus an organization on the fall.

So there isn't good data on this, but maybe i'll lock myself in a cave in and write a dissertation about how difficult it is for teams who manage rosters in the 20s of the draft. But I'd like to know which teams do it better than us. I'd say we're in the bottom tier of draft assets over the last 5-10 years. In that group with us would be the Pats, Chiefs, Steelers, Ravens. Do those teams manage better than us? Maybe, but part of that is based on Brady and Mahomes taking discounts in pay.

 

Regarding the Lions D, it's amazing how much better it got once the 2nd overall draft selection started playing great. Is that because he got a new defensive coordinator or because he just just found his stride in the NFL?

 

[packfanfb]

In other words...

[Striker]

19 minutes ago, pgwingman said:

So there isn't good data on this, but maybe i'll lock myself in a cave in and write a dissertation about how difficult it is for teams who manage rosters in the 20s of the draft. But I'd like to know which teams do it better than us. I'd say we're in the bottom tier of draft assets over the last 5-10 years. In that group with us would be the Pats, Chiefs, Steelers, Ravens. Do those teams manage better than us? Maybe, but part of that is based on Brady and Mahomes taking discounts in pay.

 

Regarding the Lions D, it's amazing how much better it got once the 2nd overall draft selection started playing great. Is that because he got a new defensive coordinator or because he just just found his stride in the NFL?

 

Don't bother. I've gone down this road before with that poster's own handpicked list of "the grass is greener" GMs that proved the points/criticisms brought up were flawed *at best* and it still didn't sink in.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Striker

[Leader]

 

[hitnhope]

30 minutes ago, pgwingman said:

 

 

Regarding the Lions D, it's amazing how much better it got once the 2nd overall draft selection started playing great. Is that because he got a new defensive coordinator or because he just just found his stride in the NFL?

 

They went from the worst defense in the league to top 5-10 defense all based on the improvement of 1 player?   That is the improvement rather than approach brought in by a new coordinator?  Really - I can't agree.

[Striker]

34 minutes ago, pgwingman said:

So there isn't good data on this, but maybe i'll lock myself in a cave in and write a dissertation about how difficult it is for teams who manage rosters in the 20s of the draft. But I'd like to know which teams do it better than us. I'd say we're in the bottom tier of draft assets over the last 5-10 years. In that group with us would be the Pats, Chiefs, Steelers, Ravens. Do those teams manage better than us? Maybe, but part of that is based on Brady and Mahomes taking discounts in pay.

 

Regarding the Lions D, it's amazing how much better it got once the 2nd overall draft selection started playing great. Is that because he got a new defensive coordinator or because he just just found his stride in the NFL?

 

Also, one other point to add to what you mentioned re: the Lions D. They fired their passing game coordinator and their D backs coach, not their defensive coordinator. After that point?

https://www.mlive.com/lions/2023/01/detroit-lions-2022-review-defensive-line-shows-promise-through-many-bumps.html

Quote

DVOA rankings had Detroit’s run defense ranked 20th and its pass defense 23rd in Weeks 10 through 18. That’s not great, but it’s better than the 25th (run defense) and 30th (pass defense) rankings they registered in the first nine weeks

They're off to a hot start this season, but they've also played some bad offenses and have run into the exact same problem vs. good ones. If the opposing team can block the pass rush, the Lions secondary falls apart. Lucky for Detroit, only the Cowboys and maybe the Vikings and Chargers have halfway competent OLs. Otherwise they can feast on a bunch of weak teams...until the playoffs.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Striker

[Striker]

1 hour ago, hitnhope said:

Problem is that Gute didn't pull off any positive scenario.  We didn't win with Rodgers, and now that he is gone, we are flat out a bad team on both sides of the ball.   We have consistently had huge holes in our roster under his guidance.

I've argued this point a million times, but we'll try a million and one.

Almost all teams have holes. Even the Super Bowl winners. You just hope your positions of strength cover for them. Detroit's secondary is middling at best. Their pass rush covers for it, until it doesn't. The 49ers have depth issues at OL and their QB is still a work in progress. The talent at the skill positions and defense covers for that, until it doesn't. The Bills rely on the greatness of Josh Allen to cover for their OL and a turnover happy defense to cover for their tendency to give up big plays. Which is great until it isn't.

Last year's Kansas City offense was very similar to the 2020 Packers in terms of build. One All-Pro receiving weapon and a bunch of guys at the other positions. Including literally one of the guys Packer fans complained about. A good defense in the divisional and conference rounds and the greatness of Mahomes carried the day.

[hitnhope]

16 minutes ago, Striker said:

Don't bother. I've gone down this road before with that poster's own handpicked list of "the grass is greener" GMs that proved the points/criticisms brought up were flawed *at best* and it still didn't sink in.

Yet my predictions more often than not have wound up true and the Packers have gradually declined under the leadership you defend.  To use your words - Your past information was flawed *at best* yet it didn't sink in with you.

 

4 minutes ago, Striker said:

Also, one other point to add to what you mentioned re: the Lions D. They fired their passing game coordinator and their D backs coach, not their defensive coordinator. After that point?

https://www.mlive.com/lions/2023/01/detroit-lions-2022-review-defensive-line-shows-promise-through-many-bumps.html

Ignore the stairstep improvement that has been realized again this year?  

Where were they before the coaching changes in 2022 before firing Pleasant?

Last:  points per game , 1st downs allowed per game, yards per pass attempt, Red zone TD percentage, 3rd down conversion rate,.

30th of 32 teams in rushing yards per game allowed, rushing yards per carry, passing yards allowed per game, take aways.

Per your argument All of this change was purely due to the development of 1 player and nothing to do with coaching.  Sorry that I find that argument implausible.

You presented fact to show an argument that simply isn't rational because you don't like my posts calling out Packer leadership.  

As to teams that are performing better long term there are a number.   KC, Seattle, Pittsburgh, SF, Philly, Buffalo.  I know we didn't agree on a number of these, but they are definitely better teams than the Packers of 2023   

If your GM and coaching staffs are middle of the road your team winds up middle of the road.  Unfortunately, we have middle of the road leadership in GB and fans don't want to see or believe it.

 

[hitnhope]

1 minute ago, Striker said:

I've argued this point a million times, but we'll try a million and one.

Almost all teams have holes. Even the Super Bowl winners. You just hope your positions of strength cover for them. Detroit's secondary is middling at best. Their pass rush covers for it, until it doesn't. The 49ers have depth issues at OL and their QB is still a work in progress. The talent at the skill positions and defense covers for that, until it doesn't. The Bills rely on the greatness of Josh Allen to cover for their OL and a turnover happy defense to cover for their tendency to give up big plays. Which is great until it isn't.

Last year's Kansas City offense was very similar to the 2020 Packers in terms of build. One All-Pro receiving weapon and a bunch of guys at the other positions. Including literally one of the guys Packer fans complained about. A good defense in the divisional and conference rounds and the greatness of Mahomes carried the day.

I agree with every point you made here.   But they didn't have special teams performing at league worst levels.    The only team on your list that won a SB is KC.  They have a much stronger defense and special teams that allowed them to overcome.    

We expected our offense to cover all of the many warts.  It couldn't, and then the fan base blamed the offense for the problem rather than fixing the issues with ST or defense.

[Packerraymond]

34 minutes ago, Leader said:

 

@packfanfb

[Striker]

5 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

Yet my predictions more often than not have wound up true and the Packers have gradually declined under the leadership you defend.  To use your words - Your past information was flawed *at best* yet it didn't sink in with you.

How so? As we've covered, your own list of GMs who all would have been fired for the exact same things your criticize Gute for. Also, there's nothing impressive about predicting a team slumping because if you bang that drum every year, you'll be right at some point.

Anyone paying attention knew this (and even last year) would be a down year to some degree. They're the youngest team in the league, over a third of the salary cap is going to players not on the team/not playing right now, they have a garbage DC, a number of their best players have missed significant time, and they've seen regression at the QB position (both Rodgers last year and Love this year). It's akin to predicting that the first two years under Thompson would be rough, when everyone could see a reload/rebuild happening.

Quote

Ignore the stairstep improvement that has been realized again this year?  

Where were they before the coaching changes in 2022 before firing Pleasant?

Last:  points per game , 1st downs allowed per game, yards per pass attempt, Red zone TD percentage, 3rd down conversion rate,.

30th of 32 teams in rushing yards per game allowed, rushing yards per carry, passing yards allowed per game, take aways.

Per your argument All of this change was purely due to the development of 1 player and nothing to do with coaching.  Sorry that I find that argument implausible.

So, first, keep your arguments straight. My argument was not that 1 player made a difference. But it's also not that the sudden firing fixed things between middle of 2022 and end of year or that it could even be considered fixed now. They were still a well below average defense. But it helps when your schedule goes from:

-Eagles, Vikings, Seahawks, Patriots, Cowboys, Dolphins 

to

-Packers, Bears, Giants, Bills (who they allowed an injured Allen to run/pass all over them), Jets, Panthers (who they allowed 320 yards rushing against).

This year, they've stifled KC (who had no Kelce and were still trying to make Toney a thing), Atlanta, Green Bay, Tampa Bay, and Carolina. They've given up big yards and points to Seattle and Baltimore. 

I give them credit for locking down the bad teams. But they still are showing major problems with any above average/good offense.

Quote

You presented fact to show an argument that simply isn't rational because you don't like my posts calling out Packer leadership.  

As to teams that are performing better long term there are a number.   KC, Seattle, Pittsburgh, SF, Philly, Buffalo.  I know we didn't agree on a number of these, but they are definitely better teams than the Packers of 2023   

If your GM and coaching staffs are middle of the road your team winds up middle of the road.  Unfortunately, we have middle of the road leadership in GB and fans don't want to see or believe it.

Yes, one usually presents facts when trying to make a point. There are plenty of reasons to criticize Gute. The problem is the ones you stick with are wildly inconsistent with your view of the league and GMs you have praised. 

KC has a generational QB who may actually be the GOAT when all is said and done and is only 28. Their GM inherited both of their best weapons on offense AND the coach. And his team won a Super Bowl with the exact type of personnel you criticize Gute for.

Seattle has had an OL that has let them down consistently, struggled to find a replacement for Lynch, and hasn't made the NFCG since 2014.

Pittsburgh has missed the playoffs 5 times since their Super Bowl loss to the Packers (which is one worse than the Packers), have made one AFCG appearance (where they got blown out), and have otherwise found new and hilarious ways to collapse while struggling to replace Roethlisberger and field a competent O and D at the same time.

The 49ers under Lynch have missed the playoffs 3 times (including twice in his first two seasons), have had four top 10 picks (one that he "inherited" from the previous GM), have lost the Super Bowl once, and made the NFCG and lost two other times.

The Eagles are closer, with two Super Bowl appearances, one win, and two missed playoffs under Roseman's tenure as sole GM. Of course, they also went 7-9 and 4-11-1 under him and he's gotten two shots at head coaches now.

Buffalo has also had a pretty clean run. Though one could point out that they have failed to put a great OL around Allen and their defense has imploded three straight years now. And now they may be hitting their slump.

[pgwingman]

29 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

As to teams that are performing better long term there are a number.   KC, Seattle, Pittsburgh, SF, Philly, Buffalo.  I know we didn't agree on a number of these, but they are definitely better teams than the Packers of 2023   

I'll agree with that list, and even add the Ravens and Pats. That still puts us 9th/32 teams. If you told me Gute is a top 10 GM over the last ten years, I'd agree.

As I've said a few posts back, I also think a few of the GMs ahead of Gute deserve an asterisk. Howie Roseman turned Carson freaking Wentz into like 3 first round picks. Patriots and Chiefs had QBs playing below market value. Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Buffalo haven't played in a Super Bowl this decade, so I'm not even sure you can say they're definitively better at roster management than we are. 

So by that metric, I'm still calling Gute a top 5-6 GM in the league, tied with Pitt, Bal, Buff.