mcmurtry86 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Starless said: The Pats' M.O. all year has been to play mediocre defense for a majority of the game and then clamp down at crucial moments. Not sure if they can keep getting away with it. Pretty much this. They are not a good 1st half D, nor do they really create big game changing turnovers (Harmon's INT vs Pittsburgh being the exception) The key for the Eagles is to chew clock and put up 20 in the first half. You can't waste the opportunities they will definitely have on their first few drives. Knowing the Pats offense, they won't wake up until the first half 2 minute warning. So it is very likely IMO that if the Pats win, they will need a 14+ point comeback in the 2nd half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 5 hours ago, Starless said: The Pats' M.O. all year has been to play mediocre defense for a majority of the game and then clamp down at crucial moments. Not sure if they can keep getting away with it. Adjustments are second to none. They have an initial game plan and then adjust as the game progresses. You also don't become the #1 scoring over the course of the season by playing mediocre. That's a ridiculous statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I'm well aware that people don't pay much attention to defenses these days and it's blatantly obvious with the statements I've seen in this thread. Fanboys would rather spank it to their dreamy QB's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmurtry86 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 5 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said: Adjustments are second to none. They have an initial game plan and then adjust as the game progresses. You also don't become the #1 scoring over the course of the season by playing mediocre. That's a ridiculous statement. Neither of these teams was the #1 scoring D so... not sure what you're talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmurtry86 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 5 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said: I'm well aware that people don't pay much attention to defenses these days and it's blatantly obvious with the statements I've seen in this thread. Fanboys would rather spank it to their dreamy QB's. Plenty of people pay attention to defense which is why so many people though the Jaguars would beat New England and why many are picking the Eagles to beat New England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonu62882 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 10 hours ago, Starless said: The Pats' M.O. all year has been to play mediocre defense for a majority of the game and then clamp down at crucial moments. Not sure if they can keep getting away with it. If that's the case, you don't want the Eagles getting an early lead and jumping ahead 'cause it can and will typically get ugly as you saw many times this season including with the #1 D, the Vikings. The only thing that I can see making it a little more difficult to do is because of Tom Brady putting up a fight. But, it will be tough if say we go up 14-0 or 21-0 right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 20 minutes ago, mcmurtry86 said: Neither of these teams was the #1 scoring D so... not sure what you're talking about NE is notorious for midseason adjustments, and NE has had the #1 scoring D since week 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmurtry86 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, Carmen Cygni said: NE is notorious for midseason adjustments, and NE has had the #1 scoring D since week 6. You don't need to explain the Patriots to me. It's a mediocre D. They're 2nd worst in run D - that didn't improve except when they could completely sell out to stop the run. They're below average in covering TE's and RB's. They don't create takeaways (first time in Belichick's history with the Pats they have gone 4 straight games without a takeaway). The LB's are all mediocre (Van Noy, Flowers) or outright bad (Roberts, Harris though he doesn't dress). There isn't much talent along the line other than Flowers. Since week 6 they're largely played mediocre QB's (or worse) or one dimensional teams. The list of offenses - Atlanta (during their struggling phase), San Diego, Denver, Oakland, Miami, Buffalo, Miami (got shredded by Cutler), Pittsburgh (without Antonio Brown), Buffalo, Jets, Tennessee, Jaguars - isn't exactly an all star lineup. It's a smart D. A well coached D. A defense with some good pieces (Flowers, Gilmore, McCourty). But it's a mediocre defense that can't get off the field enough on third down. A defense that has relied upon other teams doing stupid things. A defense which has no big play ability or playmakers. A defense that absolutely cannot stop the run unless it completely stacks the box. Mediocre + a few lucky breaks (Pittsburgh non-catch/stupidity with fake spike, Jets fumble through the endzone etc) + crappy offensive opponents = #1 in scoring. Other than the most delusional Pats fan, no rational person should be claiming this is anything other than a mediocre defense. Because, having watched every single snap this unit has played this year, I can assure you that's a very marginal D that matches up very poorly with the Eagles. Stats are not predictive. And without context "#1 scoring D" means nothing. Just like them being the #31 scoring D the first few weeks means nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 16 minutes ago, mcmurtry86 said: You don't need to explain the Patriots to me. It's a mediocre D. They're 2nd worst in run D - that didn't improve except when they could completely sell out to stop the run. They're below average in covering TE's and RB's. They don't create takeaways (first time in Belichick's history with the Pats they have gone 4 straight games without a takeaway). The LB's are all mediocre (Van Noy, Flowers) or outright bad (Roberts, Harris though he doesn't dress). There isn't much talent along the line other than Flowers. WTF are you talking about? They were 2nd in the league, only to the Vikings, allowing just 6 rushing TDs all year. Yards given up doesn't mean anything under a bend but don't break defensive philosophy. That's a textbook example of it right there. Quote Since week 6 they're largely played mediocre QB's (or worse) or one dimensional teams. The list of offenses - Atlanta (during their struggling phase), San Diego, Denver, Oakland, Miami, Buffalo, Miami (got shredded by Cutler), Pittsburgh (without Antonio Brown), Buffalo, Jets, Tennessee, Jaguars - isn't exactly an all star lineup. Garbage argument. You can only control who you are scheduled to play and they did it very well. Quote It's a smart D. A well coached D. A defense with some good pieces (Flowers, Gilmore, McCourty). But it's a mediocre defense that can't get off the field enough on third down. A defense that has relied upon other teams doing stupid things. A defense which has no big play ability or playmakers. A defense that absolutely cannot stop the run unless it completely stacks the box. Bingo, you're getting it now. Again, bend but don't break and they led the NFL in scoring defense since week 6. The whole point is to force the offense into executing a high number of plays, which is more unlikely and thus you force them into mistakes. Quote Mediocre + a few lucky breaks (Pittsburgh non-catch/stupidity with fake spike, Jets fumble through the endzone etc) + crappy offensive opponents = #1 in scoring. Other than the most delusional Pats fan, no rational person should be claiming this is anything other than a mediocre defense. Because, having watched every single snap this unit has played this year, I can assure you that's a very marginal D that matches up very poorly with the Eagles. Stats are not predictive. And without context "#1 scoring D" means nothing. Just like them being the #31 scoring D the first few weeks means nothing. I wouldn't admit that if I were you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats#1 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 2 hours ago, jonu62882 said: If that's the case, you don't want the Eagles getting an early lead and jumping ahead 'cause it can and will typically get ugly as you saw many times this season including with the #1 D, the Vikings. The only thing that I can see making it a little more difficult to do is because of Tom Brady putting up a fight. But, it will be tough if say we go up 14-0 or 21-0 right away. I mean, isn't that obvious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats#1 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Carmen Cygni said: WTF are you talking about? They were 2nd in the league, only to the Vikings, allowing just 6 rushing TDs all year. Yards given up doesn't mean anything under a bend but don't break defensive philosophy. That's a textbook example of it right there New England Rushing defense is 31st in the league in yards per carry. 1 hour ago, Carmen Cygni said: Garbage argument. You can only control who you are scheduled to play and they did it very well Are you serious? So you are saying that competition faced shouldn't be taken into account when discussing stats? Really? Context means everything with stats, and the Patriots average Offensive Opponent Ranking this season was 18.7, below average. 1 hour ago, Carmen Cygni said: Bingo, you're getting it now. Again, bend but don't break and they led the NFL in scoring defense since week 6. The whole point is to force the offense into executing a high number of plays, which is more unlikely and thus you force them into mistakes. Ummm, what? Defenses want to get off the field as quickly as possible. 1 hour ago, Carmen Cygni said: I wouldn't admit that if I were you. Murts is one of the best posters on this entire forum, he presented his argument with actual context and supporting evidence. You replied by cherry picking a single running statistic, saying the level of competition has no bearing on context of stats (it does), made up some ridiculous statement about defenses wanting the opponents offense to be on the field a lot, and ad hominem crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 19 minutes ago, Pats#1 said: New England Rushing defense is 31st in the league in yards per carry. Doesn't matter when you only allow 6 rushing TDs all year long. This upholds their defensive philosophy. 19 minutes ago, Pats#1 said: Are you serious? So you are saying that competition faced shouldn't be taken into account when discussing stats? Really? Absolutely. SoS means nothing. You play your schedule and focus on what you can control. Nothing else matters. 19 minutes ago, Pats#1 said: Defenses want to get off the field as quickly as possible. "By playing a conservative defensive style and forcing an opposing offense to make relatively more plays to drive down the field, that offense has more chances to make a mistake like allow a sack, commit a turnover, make an errant throw or drop a pass, etc." . . "Going one step further, we found that, in seasons for which the Patriots were particularly good and / or lucky at producing turnovers, the points / yards discrepancies are particularly strong. Even after accounting for these two effects, however, there does seem to be some aspect of the Patriots’ defenses that finds a way to preferentially prevent points more so than yards, relative to that of other NFL teams. This preference could arise from, say, a focus on good tackling, or adeptness at limiting big plays. A more diverse data set could perhaps address these and other possibilities, but for now, let’s simply ascribe it to a BbDB philosophy. " http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/teams-nfl/afc-east/new-england-patriots/2017/02/01/new-england-patriots-bend-dont-break-defense-myth-reality/ You don't even understand the simple principles of your own damn team. Embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats#1 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 49 minutes ago, Carmen Cygni said: Doesn't matter when you only allow 6 rushing TDs all year long. This upholds their defensive philosophy. Average Opponent Offensive Rushing TD Per Game ranking....18.3, below average. You also realize that teams can pass for TDs as well correct? New England Patriots Defense Passing TD allowed per game ranking.....20th, below average. 49 minutes ago, Carmen Cygni said: Absolutely. SoS means nothing. You play your schedule and focus on what you can control. Nothing else matters. When talking about the actual level of ability and ranking a player/teams performance against other players/teams, context means everything. Comparing teams in a vacuum (like you are), when they play different schedules, goes against every bit of common sense. 49 minutes ago, Carmen Cygni said: You don't even understand the simple principles of your own damn team. Embarrassing. Let's break this down... First McMurtry talked about how the New England defense couldn't get off the field on third down 3 hours ago, mcmurtry86 said: It's a smart D. A well coached D. A defense with some good pieces (Flowers, Gilmore, McCourty). But it's a mediocre defense that can't get off the field enough on third down. A defense that has relied upon other teams doing stupid things. A defense which has no big play ability or playmakers. A defense that absolutely cannot stop the run unless it completely stacks the box. You responded by saying "the whole point" is to force the offense into executing a high number of plays... 3 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said: Bingo, you're getting it now. Again, bend but don't break and they led the NFL in scoring defense since week 6. The whole point is to force the offense into executing a high number of plays, which is more unlikely and thus you force them into mistakes. 1.) You responding to Murts statement that New England's 3rd down defense is awful (it is), by saying the defense wants the offense to execute more plays, making it seem like the defense not stopping the offense on 3rd downs is what they want....it isn't. 2.) Your dislike of context in all things really hinders your arguments. Unfortunately, I read the quotes in their entirety, and not just the tiny bolded snippets you wanted pointed out. The first quote specifically says "to drive down the field" right after your bolded statement, adding that almighty context to the bolded. You didn't add any context in your statement, you simply said "the whole point is to force the offense into executing a high number of plays" as a counter argument to Murts saying that New England couldn't get off the field on 3rd down. And what's really embarrassing is DM'ing someone swearing at them and telling them to go "whack off" to their Tom Brady poster (lol), because you're upset that someone disagrees with you and can actually back it up with stats and context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonu62882 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Pats#1 said: I mean, isn't that obvious? Not against most teams...We've seen leads choked against your team. If I heard correctly, Brady has even trailed in every SB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats#1 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 7 minutes ago, jonu62882 said: Not against most teams...We've seen leads choked against your team. If I heard correctly, Brady has even trailed in every SB. Being down 14-21 points at any time in the NFL is bad news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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