TheVillain112 Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 On 9/5/2017 at 7:35 PM, Calibucsfan said: congrats its such a great documentary. watch it if you get a chance, you should at least understand why you're eating vegan I watched 'What the health', and I agree it's worth watching. I probably still won't go full veggie/vegan but most of the way there. One thing I didn't like about the documentary though, is that they didn't touch on the affects of eating meat in moderation enough. Just mentioned it briefly but didn't really provide any hard evidence one way or the other. Wife also mentioned that she liked 'Forks over Knives' another netflix documentary. Said it was better than 'What the health'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 12 hours ago, bigjohnson2009 said: I would imagine cutting all meat, fish, eggs and cheese and replacing it with vegan substitutes that have sufficient protein and such would be healthier on your heart by far, so IMO a good vegan diet >>> good regular diet. cheese? yes. meat, fish and eggs? (assuming they are high quality versions) not a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Small Town Values Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 On 07/08/2017 at 10:07 AM, 11sanchez11 said: I'm here eating some beef tacos and looking at some chick's post about her veganism and factory farming and all that jazz. I like these types of discussion so let's talk about it. Are you a vegan? Should we all be vegans? Maybe just a higher % of the population being vegan is ok? Is factory farming terrible? Health benefits/cons? Is hunting an acceptable way to not be a vegan? Environmental factors? Pretty sure this is all forum safe. Civil discussion preferably. How did I miss this thread? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm 98% Vegan / 2% Vegetarian (Coming up a year). I occasionally stray into vegetarian territory for 2 things - Regular Chocolate / Regular Cheese (Mainly on Pizza) ... I'll be honest, vegan chocolate & cheese kinda sucks (But, I'm trying to drop the final 2%). Reason: Environmental - Doing my part to reduce agriculture + over-farming, & over-fishing. Hopefully it will contribute to a healthier planet. My Main Issue - There are too many people in the world to keep consuming meat at the rate we do, without serious environmental consequences. Yes, I believe the heavy demand for meat often leads to cruelty. Time is money after all. Hunting is ok imo (I'm not a sentient being driven vegan), if it fits within a system. Problem is in most cases the population is too big for this to be viable. Yes, I do believe animals have intelligence & feelings. But if humans actively contributed to a healthy ecosystem with their hunting, I'd have no issue with it, we are animals ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11sanchez11 Posted September 8, 2017 Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, incognito_man said: cheese? yes. meat, fish and eggs? (assuming they are high quality versions) not a chance. Fish, seafood (there is a particular kind that I can't think of the name rn, perhaps mollusks?), and eggs are supposed to be some of the healthier foods from what I heard. Then organs are to also supposed to be extremely healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats#1 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Marc MacGyver said: How did I miss this thread? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm 98% Vegan / 2% Vegetarian (Coming up a year). I occasionally stray into vegetarian territory for 2 things - Regular Chocolate / Regular Cheese (Mainly on Pizza) ... I'll be honest, vegan chocolate & cheese kinda sucks (But, I'm trying to drop the final 2%). Reason: Environmental - Doing my part to reduce agriculture + over-farming, & over-fishing. Hopefully it will contribute to a healthier planet. My Main Issue - There are too many people in the world to keep consuming meat at the rate we do, without serious environmental consequences. Yes, I believe the heavy demand for meat often leads to cruelty. Time is money after all. Hunting is ok imo (I'm not a sentient being driven vegan), if it fits within a system. Problem is in most cases the population is too big for this to be viable. Yes, I do believe animals have intelligence & feelings. But if humans actively contributed to a healthy ecosystem with their hunting, I'd have no issue with it, we are animals ourselves. This is the correct way to go about explaining why you are vegan/vegetarian....not "If you eat meat/dairy you might as well smoke 3 packs a day and inject yourself with cancer!" Meat production/consumption is the largest producer of green house gases in the world I believe...IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles101 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 7 hours ago, Marc MacGyver said: How did I miss this thread? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm 98% Vegan / 2% Vegetarian (Coming up a year). I occasionally stray into vegetarian territory for 2 things - Regular Chocolate / Regular Cheese (Mainly on Pizza) ... I'll be honest, vegan chocolate & cheese kinda sucks (But, I'm trying to drop the final 2%). Reason: Environmental - Doing my part to reduce agriculture + over-farming, & over-fishing. Hopefully it will contribute to a healthier planet. My Main Issue - There are too many people in the world to keep consuming meat at the rate we do, without serious environmental consequences. Yes, I believe the heavy demand for meat often leads to cruelty. Time is money after all. Hunting is ok imo (I'm not a sentient being driven vegan), if it fits within a system. Problem is in most cases the population is too big for this to be viable. Yes, I do believe animals have intelligence & feelings. But if humans actively contributed to a healthy ecosystem with their hunting, I'd have no issue with it, we are animals ourselves. How factory farms treat animals is absolutely disgusting, no doubt about it. Find a meat auction near you and you my vomit if your not used to it. Ive seen cows with legs covered in puss from infections measuring a foot across that gets sold. Calves that have broken legs beat with sticks to get them in the pen (with the mad cow disease law they cant carry it). Cows live up to their belly in poop. Lagoons of pig poop sprayed across areas that enter the water way. Chickens left in barns that have no light. Etc. its a horrific system. The environmental damage is off the charts. Cows take up massive room and no way to remove the build up off poop. Then the massive land clearly to produce food for them. Fishing that wipes out species and destroys sea environments. The whole system is barbaric. I try my best to live off the land but there just isnt enough for everyone to do it. Cities are cancer pn the world. They wont change how we produce food because a combination of people bot liking sustainable food ie vegetables and insicts and the city having no way to produce for itself. Im saving up now for a homestead but there expensive if you need to live near civilization for work. I only buy chicken because my wife wont live without it and coyotes have devastated the rabbit population. But thats something city people cant do. It would be amzing if people switched to a small meat portion diet. I know people that buy a full cow for a 4 person family and run through it in less then a year. Thats just insane. I get one deer a year (try for two but bucks are sly little dogs) and it last most of the year with my 4 and its not even half the meat. Even gardening is impossible for city people. I have a small small small garden and i produce enough for a half year of vegatables and fruit. Anyone who owns an acre can can live off the land for the most part but most people choose not to. Then again city people dont have that choice and need barbaric practices to sustain it. Hopefully we move away from a huge pile of meat with a small portion of anything else but i doubt it. People like meat naturally. Getting meat if we were wild creatures would rarely happen so we have a natural drive to get it when we can, same with sugar. So now that it is readily available people just destroy it and it happens to every culture. Once it's available cheap it becomes a staple in meals. But humans have changed before and I believe we will change again. home gardens are on the rise, ethical animal husbandry is on the rise, homesteading is creeping back up and if it keeps trending up we should start seeing things change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnson2009 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 8 hours ago, incognito_man said: cheese? yes. meat, fish and eggs? (assuming they are high quality versions) not a chance. The average american consumes a high quality version of meat, fish and eggs about 0% of the time at least here in the city. Hence my opinion. I don't even have a place in Toledo I know I can trust with meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles101 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, bigjohnson2009 said: The average american consumes a high quality version of meat, fish and eggs about 0% of the time at least here in the city. Hence my opinion. I don't even have a place in Toledo I know I can trust with meat. How do you figure most people get a high quality animal product? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohnson2009 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 34 minutes ago, eagles101 said: How do you figure most people get a high quality animal product? I don't I said almost nobody in the city does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles101 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 14 minutes ago, bigjohnson2009 said: I don't I said almost nobody in the city does. Ahhh miss read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats#1 Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Best way to go about finding high quality meat is survey your local butcher shops and ask about where they get their meat from. If you aren't satisfied with the information they give you, there are companies that let you purchase all natural grass fed/free range meat and poultry that is freeze dried and delivered to you. It's expensive, but honestly, when you are talking about your health, and the fact that your cell phone bill could probably cover most of the difference in cost, it's completely worth it to find other less important financial "wants" to sacrifice in place of good quality food. If you have farmers markets near you as well they can be knowledgeable on where to get good meat as well. Sometimes they work with other farms/meat providers to supply customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Small Town Values Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 18 hours ago, Pats#1 said: This is the correct way to go about explaining why you are vegan/vegetarian....not "If you eat meat/dairy you might as well smoke 3 packs a day and inject yourself with cancer!" Meat production/consumption is the largest producer of green house gases in the world I believe...IIRC. Agreed... There is far too much extremism that infects various world issues these days. Vegans who spout garbage about cancer & attack people who eat healthy balanced diets, or compare meat consumption as if it's the equivalent to supporting the holocaust, aren't helping the cause at all, in fact they only make it worse. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ 12 hours ago, eagles101 said: How factory farms treat animals is absolutely disgusting, no doubt about it. Find a meat auction near you and you my vomit if your not used to it. Ive seen cows with legs covered in puss from infections measuring a foot across that gets sold. Calves that have broken legs beat with sticks to get them in the pen (with the mad cow disease law they cant carry it). Cows live up to their belly in poop. Lagoons of pig poop sprayed across areas that enter the water way. Chickens left in barns that have no light. Etc. its a horrific system. The environmental damage is off the charts. Cows take up massive room and no way to remove the build up off poop. Then the massive land clearly to produce food for them. Fishing that wipes out species and destroys sea environments. The whole system is barbaric. I try my best to live off the land but there just isnt enough for everyone to do it. Cities are cancer pn the world. They wont change how we produce food because a combination of people bot liking sustainable food ie vegetables and insicts and the city having no way to produce for itself. Im saving up now for a homestead but there expensive if you need to live near civilization for work. I only buy chicken because my wife wont live without it and coyotes have devastated the rabbit population. But thats something city people cant do. It would be amzing if people switched to a small meat portion diet. I know people that buy a full cow for a 4 person family and run through it in less then a year. Thats just insane. I get one deer a year (try for two but bucks are sly little dogs) and it last most of the year with my 4 and its not even half the meat. Even gardening is impossible for city people. I have a small small small garden and i produce enough for a half year of vegatables and fruit. Anyone who owns an acre can can live off the land for the most part but most people choose not to. Then again city people dont have that choice and need barbaric practices to sustain it. Hopefully we move away from a huge pile of meat with a small portion of anything else but i doubt it. People like meat naturally. Getting meat if we were wild creatures would rarely happen so we have a natural drive to get it when we can, same with sugar. So now that it is readily available people just destroy it and it happens to every culture. Once it's available cheap it becomes a staple in meals. But humans have changed before and I believe we will change again. home gardens are on the rise, ethical animal husbandry is on the rise, homesteading is creeping back up and if it keeps trending up we should start seeing things change. Very similar to my way of thinking. I live in the city, so that's why I believe it's important to make the decision to go vegan, vegetarian, or at least reduce your meat consumption in an effort to lessen the impact on the environment. But if I lived off the land, I would probably live very differently. ~~~ They've been considering the idea of growing produce in cities for some time now, but few have seemed to follow through & put the idea into effect. (Green skyscrapers) (Here an article from 2012) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2255494/The-plant-skyscrapers-Giant-greenhouses-city-centres-herald-new-age-farming.html Be interesting to see if in the near future they start dedicating space in cities to food production. I remember reading somewhere that Taiwan was already doing something like this, & I think they do it in Cuba too (Regular flat gardens, not the skyscraper greenhouse type, but still in the city). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scar988 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 On 9/7/2017 at 1:50 PM, TheVillain112 said: I watched 'What the health', and I agree it's worth watching. I probably still won't go full veggie/vegan but most of the way there. One thing I didn't like about the documentary though, is that they didn't touch on the affects of eating meat in moderation enough. Just mentioned it briefly but didn't really provide any hard evidence one way or the other. Wife also mentioned that she liked 'Forks over Knives' another netflix documentary. Said it was better than 'What the health'... What the health is full of bunk science. Not actual real science. Closer to a mockumentary than a true documentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVillain112 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 27 minutes ago, scar988 said: What the health is full of bunk science. Not actual real science. Closer to a mockumentary than a true documentary. Yeah, I didn't believe the hard sell of going full vegan. Also stories like the switch to veggie for that one person which cured all her alignments in like 2 weeks. Never believe any of that stuff. That said what specific science would you say was fake in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scar988 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 43 minutes ago, TheVillain112 said: Yeah, I didn't believe the hard sell of going full vegan. Also stories like the switch to veggie for that one person which cured all her alignments in like 2 weeks. Never believe any of that stuff. That said what specific science would you say was fake in it? Pretty much the entire thing. https://www.eater.com/2017/8/7/16107678/scientists-criticize-aggressively-pro-vegan-documentary-what-the-health https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-health-a-movie-with-an-agenda/ https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/7/25/16018658/what-the-health-documentary-review-vegan-diet These are the best articles to read that go into it. Just awful research as a whole. And it doesn't pass the sniff test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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