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whodatworm23

Saints trade up for Marcus Davenport

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I felt this topic deserved its own post…


THE TRADE
The Saints traded their 1st and early 5th rounder this year and their 1st rounder in 2019 for the 14th overall pick, Marcus Davenport DE.

THE COST
Make no mistake about it… the Saints overpaid here at what equates to about a 2nd rounder in value as far as draft capital goes. Had this trade been made for a quarterback most wouldn’t consider this an overpayment but since it was for a positional player it will be more scrutinized. 

THE PLAYER
Many who are upset over the selection is either unfamiliar with the prospect or had there hearts set on a quarterback. The fact remains that Marcus Davenport (while raw) possesses elite game changing pass rush potential in the form of a Demarcus Ware or Julius Peppers. Davenport is an athletic freak at 6’6” and 265 lbs he was my 10th overall prospect in this draft despite not being anywhere near the player he can be. Too many people hear the term “raw” and get nervous and then they see the small school aspect of it and that doesn’t make things any better. People automatically assume that Davenport is a “boom or bust” prospect when that couldn’t be further from the truth. Davenports floor is pretty high in my opinion… at worst I see him becoming a Ziggy Ansah type player in the NFL with his ceiling being that of a Demarcus Ware / Julius Peppers type. 

THE POSITION
Yes, Marcus Davenport isn’t a quarterback… yes, the Saints traded two 1st round picks to acquire him. In the NFL these days the quarterback position is second to none when it comes to importance to building a team. Well, guess what’s #2 on that list… EDGE RUSHER! Having a player like Davenport with his athletic traits coming off the edge is basically a prerequisite in having a great defense in the NFL these days. For as great as Cam Jordan is, he is no where near the athlete that Davenport is but the combination of the two will give the Saints a fearsome pass rush for once. 

MY TAKE
Edge rushers with Marcus Davenports physical traits and athleticism are rare commodities in the NFL and they cost a premium and that’s what the Saints paid to land him. Not for one second do I believe this was a desperation move as we have seen for years that the Saints can be extremely picky when it comes to the edge rushers. They finally identified the prospect they viewed as a major impact player and future elite pass rusher in the league and they made a bold move to go up and get him. I value elite edge rushers with Davenports size and traits as highly as quarterbacks in today’s NFL so the compensation doesn’t bother me. I love the fit and pairing of Davenports elite athleticism and length across from Jordan’s power and all around skill set. This pick made the entire defense better as Davenport will cause a ripple effect across the unit and make everyone better. Jordan will be better with a bookend of Davenports ability, Rankins will see far less double teams inside and now this young talented Saints secondary has a front seven that will put much more pressure on opposing quarterbacks. Would I have liked to see the Saints address the quarterback position… sure but I’ve been clamoring for this team to find a true bookend edge rusher across from Jordan for years so the last thing imma do now is criticize them when they finally find that guy. What I’m focusing on instead is the unlimited upside of a prospect that will be as good as he wants to be and could be the final piece in getting the Saints back to the Super Bowl. 

WHODAT 

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You know who I can see looking at Jordan and Davenport? the same types of rushers we had with Rickey Jackson and Pat Swilling. I'm not comparing the talents, but the skillsets. I think that is how these two will play out. Jordan dominating from his end, and Davenport with the speed and ability to run down those trying to get away from JordanxD

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I saw somewhere that Davenport was the 3rd best pass rusher according to PFF last year behind Chubb and Bosa, so I guess there is that.  I'm being neutral on this pick and not jumping out of my seat like last year with our amazing 1st round that we had.

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Posted (edited)

When I heard rumors the Saints were looking trade up I thought it was for a QB. When they actually traded up and gave up that type of compensation I thought it was for Lamar Jackson. The Saints wanted to take a QB last year but that QB didn’t fall to them. Jackson would’ve been perfect for the Saints system and learning from Brees for the next handful of years.

While Davenport has a high ceiling, when it’s all said and done him might be at best the 4th best pass rusher in this draft. I like Chubb, Landry is underrated in this draft (still on the board btw), and Key has the potential to be great (some red flags that has him still on the board). Davenport better be a franchise changing player to justify this move. He better be better mentioned in the same breath as Donald, a healthy Watt, Miller. Guys that are have or will get paid QB type money because they are more than deserving because they wreck offenses by themselves weekly. If Davenport is that guy then this move was worth it. Two years from now we better be saying Davenport is the best pass rusher on the Saints (not even close) and one of the best pass rushers in the NFL.

Take it from me. Robert Quinn came in 2011 and was the best pass rusher over the former 2nd overall pick Chris Long. Quinn should’ve won defensive player of the year in 2013, but finished 2nd behind Robert Mathis. Quinn had 19 sacks, 2 fumbles recovers and a td that season made the pro bowl and was first team all-pro in his 3rd season in the NFL. A year later in 2014 the Rams draft Aaron Donald and got rid of Chris Long. People were still saying Quinn was the best pass rusher. That changed in 2015 when the spotlight shined on Donald and he dominated. He became the best pass rusher on the Rams. In 2016 many people started saying Donald was one the best pass rushers in the NFL and as we stand today in 2018, just about everyone says Donald is by far the best pass rusher in the NFL and he just won defensive player of the year, been to pro bowls each of his four seasons and three straight first team all-pro honors. So again Davenport need to be that in order to justify the Saints giving up all that they did to get him.

Edited by stl4life07

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27 minutes ago, stl4life07 said:

Jackson would’ve been perfect for the Saints system and learning from Brees for the next handful of years.

We would’ve had to change our system for Jackson, every team would have. Not sure he’s a “perfect fit” in that regard and that why he fell to 32

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I was coming around on the move last until I saw how far Lamar fell.

We could’ve had Jackson, kept our first next year and 5th this year as well

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12 minutes ago, stl4life07 said:

When I heard rumors the Saints were looking trade up I thought it was for a QB. When they actually traded up and gave up that type of compensation I thought it was for Lamar Jackson. The Saints wanted to take a QB last year but that QB didn’t fall to them. Jackson would’ve been perfect for the Saints system and learning from Brees for the next handful of years.

While Davenport has a high ceiling, when it’s all said and done him might be at best the 4th best pass rusher in this draft. I like Chubb, Landry is underrated in this draft (still on the board btw), and Key has the potential to be great (some red flags that has him still on the board). Davenport better be a franchise changing player to justify this move. He better be better mentioned in the same breath as Donald, a healthy Watt, Miller. Guys that are have or will get paid QB type money because they are more than deserving because they wreck offenses by themselves weekly. If Davenport is that guy then this move was worth it. Two years from now we better be saying Davenport is the best pass rusher on the Saints (not even close) and one of the best pass rushers in the NFL.

Take it from me. Robert Quinn came in 2011 and was the best pass rusher over the former 2nd overall pick Chris Long. Quinn should’ve won defensive player of the year in 2013, but finished 2nd behind Robert Mathis. Quinn had 19 sacks, 2 fumbles recovers and a td that season made the pro bowl and was first team all-pro in his 3rd season in the NFL. A year later in 2014 the Rams draft Aaron Donald and got rid of Chris Long. People were still saying Quinn was the best pass rusher. That changed in 2015 when the spotlight shined on Donald and he dominated. He became the best pass rusher on the Rams. In 2016 many people started saying Donald was one the best pass rushers in the NFL and as we stand today in 2018, just about everyone says Donald is by far the best pass rusher in the NFL and he just won defensive player of the year, been to pro bowls each of his four seasons and three straight first team all-pro honors. So again Davenport need to be that in order to justify the Saints giving up all that they did to get him.

I dont agree with this assessment and here's why... This talk that Davenport must develop into this all world player for this trade to be worth it or for this trafe not to be looked at as ridiculous is absurd to me. 

 

In 2012 the Saints traded their 2nd round pick and a future 1st round pick to move up and take Mark Ingram. Ingram has since developed into a solid player and leader for us but it took a while for him to become that. Still, most Saints fans would agree that landing Ingram was still a smart move especially considering the circumstances of that draft at the time.

 

Not counting some unforseen circumstance in 2018, the Saints likley traded away the 27th overall pick and a late 1st rounder (25th and beyond) in 2019 along with a mid 5th rounder. Heres an example of how having picks dosent always work to your advantage... In 2015 the Saints coveted Clemson pass rusher Vic Beasley and had a deal on the table to move up to the 6th pick and get him. The cost would have been the Saints 13th pick, 31st pick and 44th pick that year. The Saints felt the price was to steep so they balked. Beasley ended up going to the HATED rival Falcons where hes been a thorn in our side since as a big time NFL edge rusher while we ended up with LG Andrus Peat, LB Stephone Anthony and DE Hau'Oli Kikaha with the picks we refused to trade. While Peat has carved out a future as a promising LG after busting at RT, Anthony has already been traded (for the 5th rounder sent to Green Bay in the Davenport trade) and Kikaha will likley also soon be shipped out of town.

 

The point is just because you come away with the most draft assets in a trade does not mean that you automatically win that trade. Dont believe me, ask Browns fans if they would like to give back all the players they got with the picks they recieved for trading away Juilo Jones or Carson Wentz.

 

The NFL draft is a crap shoot so whem you happen to have a strong convection on a player I would always side with your instincts and make the move to get him. For the last 3 years the Saints have sat back and watched as the pass rushers they coveted were plucked off the board before they could get him... They werent gonna let that happen with Davenport.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, whodatworm23 said:

I dont agree with this assessment and here's why... This talk that Davenport must develop into this all world player for this trade to be worth it or for this trafe not to be looked at as ridiculous is absurd to me. 

 

In 2012 the Saints traded their 2nd round pick and a future 1st round pick to move up and take Mark Ingram. Ingram has since developed into a solid player and leader for us but it took a while for him to become that. Still, most Saints fans would agree that landing Ingram was still a smart move especially considering the circumstances of that draft at the time.

 

Not counting some unforseen circumstance in 2018, the Saints likley traded away the 27th overall pick and a late 1st rounder (25th and beyond) in 2019 along with a mid 5th rounder. Heres an example of how having picks dosent always work to your advantage... In 2015 the Saints coveted Clemson pass rusher Vic Beasley and had a deal on the table to move up to the 6th pick and get him. The cost would have been the Saints 13th pick, 31st pick and 44th pick that year. The Saints felt the price was to steep so they balked. Beasley ended up going to the HATED rival Falcons where hes been a thorn in our side since as a big time NFL edge rusher while we ended up with LG Andrus Peat, LB Stephone Anthony and DE Hau'Oli Kikaha with the picks we refused to trade. While Peat has carved out a future as a promising LG after busting at RT, Anthony has already been traded (for the 5th rounder sent to Green Bay in the Davenport trade) and Kikaha will likley also soon be shipped out of town.

 

The point is just because you come away with the most draft assets in a trade does not mean that you automatically win that trade. Dont believe me, ask Browns fans if they would like to give back all the players they got with the picks they recieved for trading away Juilo Jones or Carson Wentz.

 

The NFL draft is a crap shoot so whem you happen to have a strong convection on a player I would always side with your instincts and make the move to get him. For the last 3 years the Saints have sat back and watched as the pass rushers they coveted were plucked off the board before they could get him... They werent gonna let that happen with Davenport.

You are forgetting one thing. The Saints had a 1st round pick that year. They took Jordan then they traded back into the 1st round to get Ingram. The Saints only had one 1st round pick this year and no  2nd round pick. Plus can we agree Ingram chances to make a bigger impact on the Saints are greater than Davenport? Ingram scores tds that helps win football games. The offense can be structured around him because the Saints literally shipped out Graham years ago stating that they want to run the ball more. They recognize Brees is aging and they probably don’t want to throw the ball 40+ times a game anymore.

The one thing I will say is it’s hard to find a big guy who can rush the passer. Like the Rams in 2014 it was rumored tried to trade back into the 1st round targeting OG/O Zach Martin. They more than likely would’ve had to give up their 2015 1st round pick which turned out to be 10th overall and the OROY and OPOY Todd Gurley. Yes the Rams would’ve been criticized if they gave up a future 1st to get an interior lineman even if it’s all-pro Martin but the Rams already had two 1st round picks that year in which they took OT Greg Robinson which most believed he was a blue chip player but ended up busting and DT Aaron Donald which most passed on due to him being undersized but now is the best pass rusher in the NFL.

So again I can kinda understand a little bit it if the Saints had multiple 1st round picks but even then I’d still feel like the Saints are pushing all their chips for a non-quarterback who I feel like can’t just be a solid player. Like if the Saints was going to give up a future 1st round pick, why not trade up with the Browns at 4 and take Bradley Chubb? In 2011 the Falcons traded their 27th overall pick, plus 2nd round, 4th round, and 2012 4th round picks to the Browns to move up to 6th overall to get Julio Jones. The Saints could’ve swung for the fences if they were going to give up a future 1st round pick by taking trying to go get Chubb. 

Edited by stl4life07

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22 minutes ago, domepatrol91 said:

We would’ve had to change our system for Jackson, every team would have. Not sure he’s a “perfect fit” in that regard and that why he fell to 32

If I’m not mistaken, I thought I heard Payton loved Jackson. I also thought the Saints wanted Watson last year had he fell to them. I think Jackson would’ve been perfect for the Saints because the system they run, I trust Payton to put Jackson in the right situations to succeed plus he will be learning from Brees for a few seasons.

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Trust the Brass in this one folks.

We were in talks of getting Mahomes last year and would've sacrificed the need to get a CB to take him. The fact that we didn't go for Jackson, should show how meticulous this Front Office is to make sure we bring in the right players.

I've heard that next year is a weak QB class as well. So instead of reaching for a coin flip, we took the BPA for us.this group isn't just looking for 6-12 months ahead. They are looking 2-3 years ahead.

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2 minutes ago, stl4life07 said:

You are forgetting one thing. The Saints had a 1st round pick that year. They took Jordan then they traded back into the 1st round to get Ingram. The Saints only had one 1st round pick this year and no  2nd round pick. Plus can we agree Ingram chances to make a bigger impact on the Saints are greater than Davenport? Ingram scores tds that helps win football games. The offense can be structured around him because the Saints literally shipped out Graham years ago stating that they want to run the ball more. They recognize Brees is aging and they probably don’t want to throw the ball 40+ times a game anymore.

The one thing I will say is it’s hard to find a big guy who can rush the passer. Like the Rams in 2014 it was rumored tried to trade back into the 1st round targeting OG/O Zach Martin. They more than likely would’ve had to give up their 2015 1st round pick which turned out to be 10th overall and the OPOY Todd Gurley. Yes the Rams would’ve been criticized if they gave up a future 1st to get an interior lineman even if it’s all-pro Martin but the Rams already had two 1st round picks that year in which they took OT Greg Robinson which most believed he was a blue chip player but ended up busting and DT Aaron Donald which most passed on due to him being undersized but now is the best pass rusher in the NFL.

So again I can kinda understand a little bit it if the Saints had multiple 1st round picks but even then I’d still feel like the Saints are pushing all their chips for a non-quarterback who I feel like can’t just be a solid player. Like if the Saints was going to give up a future 1st round pick, why not trade up with the Browns at 4 and take Bradley Chubb? In 2011 the Falcons traded their 27th overall pick, plus 2nd round, 4th round, and 2012 4th round picks to the Browns to move up to 6th overall to get Julio Jones. The Saints could’ve swung for the fences if they were going to give up a future 1st round pick by taking trying to go get Chubb. 

You are right that trade for Mark Ingram effectively only cost the Saints a 2nd round pick as they drafted a 1st round talent 1 year earlier than they otherwise could've.  You are also right that this trade up did cost a lot more by actually costing us an additional 1st and 5th round pick, since the #27 pick was the one we would've used on a player instead this year.  Now the value is that of a franchise changing player, but I don't think it has to be someone that can outshine Jordan, who was a legit contender for DPOY this year, but I do think Davenport needs to develop into a 10 sack/yr guy minimum for it to be worth what we gave up for him.

The Graham trade had more to do with injuries, bigger needs elsewhere, and the Saints ability to find offensive weapons due to Brees being a god.  We got one of the best centers in the NFL when healthy and a 1st round pick for Graham which was phenomenal value.  Now the Saints are also in a situation after this offseason where they are in a position to contend for a SB for 2 more years before Brees is done.  They've improved at linebacker and safety in FA, added another big TE and WR to help Brees who doesn't have the arm to consistent throw the deep ball which some of our WRs were better suited for last year, and still had a big need at DE across from Jordan although Okafor was resigned.  This pick even if he is just a rotational guy at first could still provide 8+ sacks much like Mark Anderson did for the Bears early on in his career before becoming a fulltime DE.  Getting someone that can consistently provide pressure along with Jordan will improve our defense vastly which will in turn allow us to not rely on Brees in the passing game as much as the games last year where he had to throw a lot and win the game was followed by a down game.

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I’ll also add too that this move to get Davenport ties the Saints hands that in a sense if Davenport is just an ok player at best, the Saints have to keep him past his rookie deal just because of what they invested to get him. It’s going to be harder to move on from him. As Ingram was mentioned, I believe his first 5 seasons wasn’t all that good (he did sorta break out in 2015) but the Saints still signed him to a deal after his contract was up partly due to how much they did give up to get him in the draft. It’s easier to cut bait with someone when you didn’t give up much if not anything to get him. But it did work out though as Ingram past 3 seasons have been his best seasons of his career.

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5 minutes ago, Raves said:

You are right that trade for Mark Ingram effectively only cost the Saints a 2nd round pick as they drafted a 1st round talent 1 year earlier than they otherwise could've.  You are also right that this trade up did cost a lot more by actually costing us an additional 1st and 5th round pick, since the #27 pick was the one we would've used on a player instead this year.  Now the value is that of a franchise changing player, but I don't think it has to be someone that can outshine Jordan, who was a legit contender for DPOY this year, but I do think Davenport needs to develop into a 10 sack/yr guy minimum for it to be worth what we gave up for him.

The Graham trade had more to do with injuries, bigger needs elsewhere, and the Saints ability to find offensive weapons due to Brees being a god.  We got one of the best centers in the NFL when healthy and a 1st round pick for Graham which was phenomenal value.  Now the Saints are also in a situation after this offseason where they are in a position to contend for a SB for 2 more years before Brees is done.  They've improved at linebacker and safety in FA, added another big TE and WR to help Brees who doesn't have the arm to consistent throw the deep ball which some of our WRs were better suited for last year, and still had a big need at DE across from Jordan although Okafor was resigned.  This pick even if he is just a rotational guy at first could still provide 8+ sacks much like Mark Anderson did for the Bears early on in his career before becoming a fulltime DE.  Getting someone that can consistently provide pressure along with Jordan will improve our defense vastly which will in turn allow us to not rely on Brees in the passing game as much as the games last year where he had to throw a lot and win the game was followed by a down game.

If Davenport develops into a 10 sack per year guy and a difference maker in or front seven the trade will be viewed as a win for us... If he dosent then it will be a loss. Either way the Saints are swingimg for the fences with 2-3 years left with Brees and I cant fault them for that.

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3 minutes ago, stl4life07 said:

I’ll also add too that this move to get Davenport ties the Saints hands that in a sense if Davenport is just an ok player at best, the Saints have to keep him past his rookie deal just because of what they invested to get him. It’s going to be harder to move on from him. As Ingram was mentioned, I believe his first 5 seasons wasn’t all that good (he did sorta break out in 2015) but the Saints still signed him to a deal after his contract was up partly due to how much they did give up to get him in the draft. It’s easier to cut bait with someone when you didn’t give up much if not anything to get him. But it did work out though as Ingram past 3 seasons have been his best seasons of his career.

you are obviously unfamiliar with how Loomis and Payton operate... We traded Graham in his prime for a center and a 1st round pick, a first round pick they already traded away for a 5th rounder because he was a bust.

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6 minutes ago, Raves said:

You are right that trade for Mark Ingram effectively only cost the Saints a 2nd round pick as they drafted a 1st round talent 1 year earlier than they otherwise could've.  You are also right that this trade up did cost a lot more by actually costing us an additional 1st and 5th round pick, since the #27 pick was the one we would've used on a player instead this year.  Now the value is that of a franchise changing player, but I don't think it has to be someone that can outshine Jordan, who was a legit contender for DPOY this year, but I do think Davenport needs to develop into a 10 sack/yr guy minimum for it to be worth what we gave up for him.

The Graham trade had more to do with injuries, bigger needs elsewhere, and the Saints ability to find offensive weapons due to Brees being a god.  We got one of the best centers in the NFL when healthy and a 1st round pick for Graham which was phenomenal value.  Now the Saints are also in a situation after this offseason where they are in a position to contend for a SB for 2 more years before Brees is done.  They've improved at linebacker and safety in FA, added another big TE and WR to help Brees who doesn't have the arm to consistent throw the deep ball which some of our WRs were better suited for last year, and still had a big need at DE across from Jordan although Okafor was resigned.  This pick even if he is just a rotational guy at first could still provide 8+ sacks much like Mark Anderson did for the Bears early on in his career before becoming a fulltime DE.  Getting someone that can consistently provide pressure along with Jordan will improve our defense vastly which will in turn allow us to not rely on Brees in the passing game as much as the games last year where he had to throw a lot and win the game was followed by a down game.

I personally think Davenport can outshine Jordan. As I mentioned Donald came in 2014, a year after Quinn had 19 sacks, 2 fumble recovers, 1 td, made the pro bowl and first team all-pro, and finished 2nd in the DPOY behind Robert Mathis. Didn’t take long for Donald to be the best pass rusher on the Rams and how he is the best pass rusher in the NFL. I like Jordan and think he is very very good but the bar has be set high for Davenport. Nobody makes this type of move if they didn’t expect greatness from the player. Again I like Davenport potential, but in order to justify this move he can’t be the 2nd best player on his defense. Maybe even team once Brees retires. 

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