Mind Character

This is the "This" post of the season.. A lot of people keep saying things like, " we can't possibly run the ball more because Nick Chubb leads the league in touches" forgetting completely that the running game is about total rushing attempts from team ball carriers and can include a second and/or third or more players. The stat that really speaks to the issues of our run game utilization on offense is that we are 17th (317) in rushing attempts per game despite having the leading Rusher in the league. The top 10 teams are in the 390s to 470s and that amount is over and above what one might think might conflate the numbers like the team having a better defense and overall team giving them the opportunity to pound the clock and run late game. That context explains some but not the statistically significant drastic difference. With Kareem Hunt in the fold, he can be getting so many more rushing attempt touches along with his passing targets. We could be the two-headed running back threat. In analytics, when you lead an efficiency category (Nick Chubb) the goal is to increase sample size. Ultimately, it's not about how many rushes but when we are running the ball. We're still calling the game in ways that over the course of the last 2 weeks even in critical redzone moments we're opting to pass. Kareem Hunt needs more Rushing touches and so does Nick Chubb. We have the OLine personnel to run that 49ers movement edge zone game that can beat people up. Play-action off that for the win.

When the Head Coach is the Offensive Coordinator and the Offense struggles, players begin to not only lose faith in the offensive coordinator but also the Head Coach. This is especially true in the case of first year Head Coaches or first full year OCs. Early and consistent success is vital for the team and offense to believe in the program. If you're a defender and you hear the Head Coach talking about this or that, but you know the offense doesn't help you out ... it can be tough to buy-in fully. That's even more so the case as an offensive player. No one on the outside or in the football believes in this offense right now. It's up to Freddie to get buy-in from Odell and the rest of the players and sustain belief for better days ahead. A lot of us don't see better days ahead with Freddie at the helm. Some of do. If we can't see it in Freddie, imagine what the players think. They look around and see some of the greats in the game and they're wondering why they can't get it done. We have a crisis with 2 coaches right now imo. 1.) Ryan Lindley who is the QB coach and the Assistant play-caller on game-days with Monken up in the booth. Everyone knows Lindley is Freddie's guy and Lindley curries favor with Baker. Lindley clashed with Landry the week prior and Odell and Higgins this past week. 2.) Freddie the OC. Somehow someway Freddie and Lindley have to renew hope for better days with the players with the players knowing that they have to be active participants in the teams rescue.

I'm just on guard man. It's just with this organization .. the momentum on things accelerates at a brake neck speed and I'm afraid that we'll create a self-fullfilling prophecy with fans and media making it that toxic environment that makes it easier for player to say "F-it get me out of this toxic place." Not accusing you or anyone on here, but in general our fans turn on players so quick especially the real or perceived "injured, underperforming type" fans say terrible things to those players and the media heightens the toxic environment with their sh*t negativity questions and their sh*t articles. Before you know it, the bolder of negativity is moving down the hill and the negativity entity that is cleveland sports media-fandom will help manifest bad outcomes. I saw people posting places about how Odell quit against Cincy by leaving the field after that vertical route because Tiki Barber said he sat on the bench in frustration after that route. Those takes disregard what anyone that plays football knows that when a player has a hamstring or core muscle injury and they run a hard deep vertical they come out the next play instead of running back to down field to get the next play off on time and put more strain. That's basic high school football injury management. I've seen it with cleveland fandom since I can remember football. We love to turn on players with injuries that don't perform at a high level for a wide variety of reasons even when they are putting it all out there. We're 1 Odell drop and more rumors away from people turning on him. Odell like Baker is tuned into the media environment and what people say about him. I just hope we can keep our environment around this situation s good as it can be. Situations like this would be perfect for a savvy veteran like Mike Tomlin, John Harbaugh, or Sean Payton. They'd make sure nothing becomes of this. No one on the outside or in the football believes in this offense right now. It's up to Freddie to get buy-in from Odell and the rest of the players and sustain belief for better days ahead.

Mark man.. don't take the fun out of internet banter discussion by saying stuff like "my bad" man.. it's no worries and will always be all good ... Post an insulting, satirical, or randomly entertaining gif...a picture of a super model followed by a blurred middle finger... or crap on my post or something... I agree in that if he's going to be a malcontent it would be better to seek a trade in the offseason as long as we get impact player value in return.

Indeed. imo it takes the passing for the offense to flow.

The past week Kendall Lamm was an improvement over Chris Hubbard and our OLine held up really well but still the offense couldn't flow

Yeah, I agree that you don't want to keep a player that is going to be a problem and that we need to base our attack off the run-game. However, I think it's a misnomer that Odell is a stat hunter or that he cares about stats more than anything. I think ultimately Odell is like most elite WRs this game has seen or any other elite talent and that is they want to feel maximized and want to feel like their ability is being actualized. Our passing game and our overall offense is a mess right now. We all know that. We all see that. We all have a feeling its potential is not being actualized. If we feel that from the outside, so do the players but more so. It's frustrating for us; frustrating for them more so. If we do trade him, it can't be trading him for trading sake. Whatever pick and/or players we get have to be impact players at impact position (Left/Right Tackle, Pass Rusher, CB) with cost control. That's all im saying.

OJ Howard has been a bottom 2 starting TE by all metrics especially so as a run blocker's in the league this year; almost as bad in the passing game. All this is happening while he's healthy and in a Bruce Arians scheme. Our offense is a Bruce Arians scheme variant. Howard's rookie year he was the worst starting TE by all major analytics metrics; this year he's the bottom 2; and last year his higher grade was driven by a 5 out of 8 games started before he went down with a season ending injury. PFF has a way to see how much of their grade has out-sized influence by a particular game or set of games and they made the point last year with their supplemental that Howard's PFF grade was driven by 5 out of 8 games started with his biggest consistent YAC gainers coming from screen plays. That was the caveat to the high grade given by Steve Palazzalo himself. You don't trade a hobbled generational WR for a TE with 2 seasons (rookie and current) as the worst starting TE in the league run blocking and pass receiving wise with a 5 out of 8 game run of success the previous year before season ending injury. If you trade an OBJ, you do so for another impact talent at an impact position. Not a TE like OJ Howard with the worst PFF grade his rookie year and bottom of the starting TEs in the league grade this year. That's a 3 year sample size with 2 of the 3 being at the bottom and the only good one being a 5 game run. What I said wasn't reactionary My comment wasn't reactionary at all. OBJ for OJ Howard would be madness.

DJ Chark??!! Courtland Sutton!!?? Keenan Allen.. Allen robinson??? In no way shape or form, are half of those guys on that list better than Odell. Have you actually watched Odell play extensively before this year? He's been hobbled all year. I called and talked about him having a core injury in the Jets game while everyone ignored it. My b.i.l. who was in the draft room when Odell was selected knew just like me and a couple of my other perceptive friends and family that Odell was hobbled based off how his movements were labored. Last year he came off a torn quad and groin issue. You can't say "Healthy Theilen" but disregard "Healthy Odell" A Healthy Odell is only being competed with by Deandre Hopkins, Michael Thomas, Mike Evans, Tyreek Hill, and Julio Jones... that's basically it. Even injured if he got more quality opportunities it would be a different story this year..

This to me is a true test of Freddie and Dorsey's leadership. In a successful tenure in the NFL, many star players will ask to be traded or not franchised or whatever. It's up to the men in the room to sit down man to man and plot a positive way forward. If OBJ wants to be traded it's because like many of us, he doesn't believe in Freddie Kitchens as a play-caller or his ability to be used and to lesser extent has lost faith in Baker as a competent QB. It's odd that we might be frustrated or question things on Sunday but we think the players don't question the competence of coaches or other players as well. It's up to Freddie and Dorsey to convince the elite talent of a way forward and for that elite talent to give everything to try to make things work. Much like other superstar athlete's though there's a whole industry that profits off of discussing their every sensationalized move. The whole year the sports media sensational-headline-industrial complex has been pining for OBJ to give them something to run with and substantiate their early season "he's going to become a problem," "OBJ never wanted to be in cleveland," "the Browns should trade OBJ" pieces. All the while OBJ's been professional who's bottled up his frustrations in the service of team and maturity. Voicing frustrations in ways high-level athletes do but doing so in a non-volatile way. Everyone wants OBJ to be a locker room drain so bad; everyone wants him to loaf and give up on the field so bad, but OBJ above anything else is a competitor, addicted to winning, and gives it his all on the field. He doesn't mail it in. OBJ's best friend in life is here in Cleveland. LGB, you're taking Glazer's hear say as a true representation of facts on the ground. It's a report. Glazer's good but as much as he's hyped he has a history of being wrong as well. Additionally, Glazer can be accurately be reporting hear-say but also have been told things that don't accurately reflect what really has transpired with Odell. Jay Glazer's report that "OBJ on the field after games has told players/coaches to come get him" could easily be misinformed or created by people that sense OBJs frustration and/or are looking to create the narrative around OBJ that opens up the trade market. I seriously doubt Odell having lived under a microscope of super stardom would openly tell coaches and players on the field such things in ear shot of cameras and other things. But let's say he does want to be traded and comes out in public requesting to do so like Stefon Diggs. The Vikings repaired their relationship with Diggs and got on the same page and have thrived. We should exhaust all possibilities before entertaining an OBJ trade.

hahahah.... "Not a top 10 receiver anymore" Classic....epic post...

1.) Take a generational hobbled WR not being utilized correctly in what should be a run first, play-action, quick rhythm attack and replace them with a lesser talented great WR prospect. 2.) Don't change anything else 3.) Hope for different results 4.) Look up the definition of insanity Replacing OBJ with another WR like CeeDee (who is one of my favorite prospects) is the type of madness I don't understand as Lamb wouldn't impact the game any differently until other issues on our offense are addressed; namely, the OLine play, Baker's eyes and footwork, and the play-caller integrating plays that flow off one another. Assuming Baker and Lamb's past experience will change everything is a misnomer imo. If we're just going to get another WR, why not fix the other issues and ride out with OBJ. hahah... utter madness.. might as well trade OBJ for some blue chews, some cool ranch doritos, and a stiff kick down yonder..

Emmanuel Ogbah was having a breakout season with on 4 starts until his injury.. We got the full Olivier Vernon experience:. Off-season pleasantries about his leadership and toughness, disappointments early season with his production, elevation of play enough to flash and accumulate some production stats but not anything spectacular, an injury that lingers on without surgery that keeps him out almost the entire rest of the season if not the whole season. That's who Vernon has been for 3 years in a row. Before that he'd get injured and his play would fall off the second half of seasons. At this point, we would've been better off going forward with Ogbah, Jabrill Peppers, Kevin Zeitler, that 1st (Jeffrey Simmons// Jerry Tillery// Jonathan Abrams//Darnell Savage// or Andre Dillard even though Dillard has rookie struggles).

Against a bottom 3 defense terrible against the run, in the first half we had 6 runs and 21 passes. That's the 1st half sample size. That occurred in week 14; bye week review hay in the barn; 13 games in with Nick Chubb, Kareem Hunt, a hobbled OBJ, and terrible pass blocking OLine. For me, as much as I have fun entertaining myself on the forum I really really don't want to be doom and gloom about Freddie b/c I know changing coaches will set us back some at a critical time, but it's really hard to come up with defensible answers for so many of our approaches. Those people were idiots and didn't know what was going on.

Baker the Twitter King... a Twitter QB HOFer

The madness of it all is that our passing game when it opens up is predicated off the play-action which is made more potent by being run first and having the run serve as the foundation to build the passing game upon. We ran the ball 5 or 6 times in the first half on a defense that is in the bottom 3 in run defense. I don't know how to explain that other than a serious fundamental issue in the coordinator either lacking awareness, understanding, or the discipline to call the game to the strength of the team. The 49ers are run first and have that identity. They control pace and tempo via the run first mentality which opens up their play-action game and passing to be a rhythm based force. That's the template. The things Kyle Shannahan would do with the pieces we have would simply be magical.

Sheldrick Redwine balled out some and looked like more than JAG.

Of course, but I don't know you see a spectacular catch like that and say "yeah see looky there he's the problem" instead of "that's proof of exceptional ability, his recatch was off by a millisecond, that's an example of why OBJ should get more quality targets because more often then not he'll make the play." I've properly attributed that the chemistry and getting on the same page is on both of them. I've also primarily attributed their issues to the play-calling and not to Baker. There are many routes and plays that are staples of our offense and others for which when you see them unfold you don't have to guess whether or not the WR is running the right route. You can rely on the leverage of the defense, the secondary alignment, the route combos, past Browns plays, and past similar offensive staples to figure out if a given receiver is likely running the right route. There are variations of course but it's really not that complicated and more often then not it's not some mysterious unknowable guessing game that you're painting it to be. So, on a clear out route when the ball is hung inside and thrown late it's not difficult to see that the ball is thrown late and hung inside. Or when there's a post-corner route option route that can be turn into an out route if the leverage suggests it should and the QB throws the out misreading the leverage or doesn't even look at the open post corner route or is late with his eyes and the ball it's not hard to see at all. It also wouldn't be hard to see if the route pacing is off because of the WR over selling a fake instead of getting into his route or not getting a good release off the line or not having a crisp efficient cut or route break.

As it stands, Washington has bungled the situation so bad with Trent Williams that they'd be lucky to get a 4th or 5th round pick for him as the writing is on the wall regarding his release. Let's look at the pick as a guaranteed player. Let's say their on the clock and Andrew Thomas, LT Georgia, Jedrick Wills Jr., OT Alabama, or Chase Young, DE Ohio state are on the board and they offer us the rights to select one of those players + Trent Williams. To me that's not enough because Trent Williams truly may never be cleared for the sustained helmet contact that is OLine play (Joe Thomas talked about how every other play OLine hit their helmet against another helmet or get their helmet hit) and even if he gets cleared will cost huge financial investment although he may only be a productive player for a few more years. But let's say Washington includes a conditional 3rd round pick that escalates to a 2nd round pick if Trent Williams doesn't resign with us. So, it would be the rights to draft Andrew Thomas, Jedrick Wills Jr., or Chase Young + Trent Williams + a Conditional 3rd round pick that can become a 2nd. That would be worthwhile trade to consider assuming we could then hit with our own draft pick. if the trade included Da'Ron Payne instead of the conditional pick so Thomas/Wills/Young + Da'Ron Payne + Trent Williams for Odell Beckham + a 3rd round pick + the Pats 3rd round pick, I'd do that one in a heartbeat. Hell no. Including our own pick would be madness. Trent is not that player anymore. A trade would only make sense if we got their pick, Williams +, and the right to keep our 1st.

Sometimes i think you're trolling. That out of bounds catch on the sideline was a Spectacular attempt on a finger tips catch that only a handful of WRs could've even gotten close to completing. He had both feet down but just for a millisecond recaught the ball to secure it. Sheesh man.. the raw total numbers don't matter at all. Target number totals mean next to nothing in football scouting much like rushing attempts. They are context oriented with the same raw numbers for two different players telling completely different stories. The number that matters for pass catchers is quality targets not out-right targets. What you fail to understand is that he's always had misses in his game; however, it averages out to be utter nothingness over the course of the season given the number of his quality targets and spectacular and next level plays. He's missed 8 or so passes (4 true drops; 2 route integration issues; 3 contended). Given the nature of his targets he has maximized them imo. OBJ does not get quality opportunities and/or targets. It's that simple. I'm not sure how watching every snap including everything from good targets to when he's running free one on one and doesn't get a target to when it's a bad/late/missed throw to a clear out route non-target would lead one to believe that "OBJ is responsible for his lack of success and hasn't done a damn thing this season." If you watch that play and say to yourself "yeah he's not that good" then we just don't see football the same at all.

Lol. The threads had to be made hahah.. I didn't see yours.... my bad.. I wanted Mayfied over Darnold? Uhh.. Yeah.. sure.. that's definitely how it went down that off-season..

Those advocating for trading OBJ have given in to the madness. Trading OBJ is so far down the list of things we need to do to fix this team it barely even bares mentioning. I hate this season. It's worse than 0-16 and that's not hyperbole or reactionary derp posting. We're exactly in insanity of what's called NFL Purgatory where tons of fan bases know very well the maddening cycle of being a 7-9 or 8-8 just good enough to where hope springs eternal the following year and there are steady calls to stay the course but not good enough to make any changes to get to the next level. That purgatory is better than the empty, cold abyss of being the losing laughing stocks of the league year in and year out but it comes with its own psychosis.

He has maximized his opportunities this season. He's pedestrian because of his utilization and not pedestrian otherwise. The analytics are clear when it comes to WR success much like RB redzone TDs success it is opportunities driven. We can all fixate on 4 and/or mis-routes but when a player like him is catching 90 + balls with 135+ targets the great and spectacular averages stands out over and above the lower percentage occurrence bad plays or mistakes. When he does get opportunities more often then not they are late/missed balls, boundary shots, or in garbage time. The instances where he has not taken advantage of an opportunity are the outliers few and far between.

Another win. Increased odds Freddie staying odds. Decreased belief that this team will ever be a contender even with talent. Increased odds Ryan Finley continues to suck. Decreased sunday happiness quotient.

I saw the injury in the jets game even when OBJ took it to the house... it was clear he had a core or muscle injury... It was easy to see that he was hobbled if a person has watched OBJ play and his movement..