Is Larry Fitzgerald Still A Top 12 WR Talent Wise?

[43M]

On 6/1/2018 at 7:50 PM, SmittyBacall said:

The thread is talent-wise, not production wise. Gordon is an animal. Arguably the most naturally gifted athlete mentioned so far. 

 so I guess Martavis Bryant is top 10 as well?

And no, I'm not saying that Martavis Bryant is as good as Josh Gordon, but those two are examples of talent not meaning much if you can't keep your head on straight.

[tom cody]

Yes, he is. 

[SmittyBacall]

2 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

 so I guess Martavis Bryant is top 10 as well?

And no, I'm not saying that Martavis Bryant is as good as Josh Gordon, but those two are examples of talent not meaning much if you can't keep your head on straight.

I don’t think Bryant is as talented as Gordon or is as good of a receiver. So no. If you want to exclude troublesome players from your list, be my guest.

[TheVillain112]

Talent to me equates to the ability to produce regardless of scheme/QB play.  By that I mean, you don't need Brady, Rodgers, Brees or a ridiculous WR friendly offense.  Fitz while his 40 time isn't what it used to be can still get it done on the field against tough corners, can adjust to tough catches, knows how to get open to move the chains, gets it done in the red zone, etc...  Their might be more than 12 "physically" talented receivers than him in the NFL, when it comes to translating that talent to the field, he's still top 12/top 10 in the NFL. 

Dude can get it done, plain and simple...

[NFLExpert49]

No. Plodding stiff. Never separated well (although he has lasted long enough to where everyone and their grandmother can separate). Shawntae Spencer used to shut him down every time they faced off. One-dimensional possession/jump ball receiver. Great at what he did/does, but that's his only talent. 

[skywlker32]

5 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

No. Plodding stiff. Never separated well (although he has lasted long enough to where everyone and their grandmother can separate). Shawntae Spencer used to shut him down every time they faced off. One-dimensional possession/jump ball receiver. Great at what he did/does, but that's his only talent. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=game&player_id=FitzLa00&year_min=1950&year_max=2017&season_start=1&season_end=-1&pos=0&game_type=R&opp_id=sfo&career_game_num_min=1&career_game_num_max=400&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&week_num_min=0&week_num_max=99&c5val=1.0&order_by=rec_yds

You sure about that? Of his 11 games under 50 yards receiving, only 3 of them were years that Spencer was playing significant snaps.

Fitzgerald was never fast, but I wouldn't say plodding either in his prime. Fitzgerald in 2011, for example, had more yards per reception than any year of Antonio Brown's career.

Maybe you are only talking current Fitz being one-dimensional (possession/jump ball... oh wait that's more than one dimension), but I didn't read this that way since you bring up performance at prime.

[lavar703]

On 6/27/2018 at 4:46 AM, NFLExpert49 said:

No. Plodding stiff. Never separated well (although he has lasted long enough to where everyone and their grandmother can separate). Shawntae Spencer used to shut him down every time they faced off. One-dimensional possession/jump ball receiver. Great at what he did/does, but that's his only talent. 

Oh come on. Good lord this is ridiculous. 

[NFLExpert49]

19 hours ago, lavar703 said:

Oh come on. Good lord this is ridiculous. 

What's ridiculous?

Here's a quick rundown of career 40+ yard touchdowns for top receivers in touchdown receptions. Note that Fitzgerald has played in (and started) as many/more games than basically everybody on this list not named Jerry Rice:

 

Jerry Rice: 55

Randy Moss: 46

Terrell Owens: 40

Lance Alworth: 37

Bob Hayes: 36

Joey Galloway: 33

Don Maynard: 30

Stanley Morgan: 29

Don Hutson: 29

Steve Smith: 29

James Lofton: 28

Tommy McDonald: 26

Wesley Walker: 24

Paul Warfield: 24

Tim Brown: 24

Santana Moss: 24

Irving Fryar: 23

Harold Jackson: 23

Cliff Branch: 21

Marvin Harrison: 21

Roy Green: 20

Chad Johnson: 19

Art Powell: 19

Andre Reed: 18

Jordy Nelson: 18

Mark Clayton: 17

Calvin Johnson: 17

Torry Holt: 15

Reggie Wayne: 15

Steve Largent: 15

Isaac Bruce: 15

Andre Johnson: 14

Charley Taylor: 14

Jimmy Smith: 14

Cris Carter :13

Dez Bryant: 12

Raymond Berry: 12

Art Monk: 12

Derrick Mason: 12

Andre Rison: 11

Brandon Marshall: 10

Rod Smith: 10

Anquan Boldin: 9

Harold Carmichael: 9

Nat Moore: 8

Larry Fitzgerald: 8

Hines Ward: 8

Marques Colston: 6

Fred Biletnikoff: 6

Rob Gronkowski: 6

Gary Collins: 4

Jimmy Graham: 4

Jason Witten: 2

 

 

 

[lavar703]

So you looked up an arbitrary stat and determined that based on this arbitrary stat LF is a one-dimensional player who can only win jump balls? 

[SmittyBacall]

6 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

What's ridiculous?

Here's a quick rundown of career 40+ yard touchdowns for top receivers in touchdown receptions. Note that Fitzgerald has played in (and started) as many/more games than basically everybody on this list not named Jerry Rice:

Jerry Rice: 55

Randy Moss: 46

Terrell Owens: 40

Lance Alworth: 37

Bob Hayes: 36

Joey Galloway: 33

Don Maynard: 30

Stanley Morgan: 29

Don Hutson: 29

Steve Smith: 29

James Lofton: 28

Tommy McDonald: 26

Wesley Walker: 24

Paul Warfield: 24

Tim Brown: 24

Santana Moss: 24

Irving Fryar: 23

Harold Jackson: 23

Cliff Branch: 21

Marvin Harrison: 21

Roy Green: 20

Chad Johnson: 19

Art Powell: 19

Andre Reed: 18

Jordy Nelson: 18

Mark Clayton: 17

Calvin Johnson: 17

Torry Holt: 15

Reggie Wayne: 15

Steve Largent: 15

Isaac Bruce: 15

Andre Johnson: 14

Charley Taylor: 14

Jimmy Smith: 14

Cris Carter :13

Dez Bryant: 12

Raymond Berry: 12

Art Monk: 12

Derrick Mason: 12

Andre Rison: 11

Brandon Marshall: 10

Rod Smith: 10

Anquan Boldin: 9

Harold Carmichael: 9

Nat Moore: 8

Larry Fitzgerald: 8

Hines Ward: 8

Marques Colston: 6

Fred Biletnikoff: 6

Rob Gronkowski: 6

Gary Collins: 4

Jimmy Graham: 4

Jason Witten: 2

If anything this is a testament to how absolutely dominant he was in the short to intermediate areas. It makes the fact he still ranks third all time in receiving yards and eigth all time in touchdowns that much more special. Defenses knew what he was going to do and he did it anyway. That’s dominance.

[NFLExpert49]

4 hours ago, lavar703 said:

So you looked up an arbitrary stat and determined that based on this arbitrary stat LF is a one-dimensional player who can only win jump balls? 

Arbitrary? There's nothing arbitrary about a statistic. The very definition of "statistic" is that it's not arbitrary. 

And no, I used the statistic to support what anybody with a functioning brain can see by watching him on the field. He's a slow, unexplosive receiver. Always was. All the numbers back that up.

He's a traffic receiver. The end. And traffic receivers will never be as talented as guys who can actually make explosive plays. He has size and he has hands. That's it. 

[NFLExpert49]

2 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

If anything this is a testament to how absolutely dominant he was in the short to intermediate areas. It makes the fact he still ranks third all time in receiving yards and eigth all time in touchdowns that much more special. Defenses knew what he was going to do and he did it anyway. That’s dominance.

No, it really isn't. Jerry Rice was catching tons of possession crap in his 40s. Being a possession receiver doesn't take nearly as much talent, and it doesn't affect games nearly as much. 

Sure, it does take some toughness and durability (less these days than in the past). But toughness and durability aren't talents. 

[SmittyBacall]

7 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

No, it really isn't. Jerry Rice was catching tons of possession crap in his 40s. Being a possession receiver doesn't take nearly as much talent, and it doesn't affect games nearly as much. 

Sure, it does take some toughness and durability (less these days than in the past). But toughness and durability aren't talents. 

What do you define as talent then? Athletic ability alone?

Would you say a world-class juggler is talented?

[lavar703]

8 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Arbitrary? There's nothing arbitrary about a statistic. The very definition of "statistic" is that it's not arbitrary. 

And no, I used the statistic to support what anybody with a functioning brain can see by watching him on the field. He's a slow, unexplosive receiver. Always was. All the numbers back that up.

He's a traffic receiver. The end. And traffic receivers will never be as talented as guys who can actually make explosive plays. He has size and he has hands. That's it. 

You used one statistic to define a hall of fame players career. Not to mention, claiming he’s not explosive is outrageous. This is the same guy who caught a pass over the middle of the field against the Steelers in the super bowl and pulled away from the entire defense.  

Absolutely no explosion whatsoever....

[NFLExpert49]

1 hour ago, lavar703 said:

You used one statistic to define a hall of fame players career. Not to mention, claiming he’s not explosive is outrageous. This is the same guy who caught a pass over the middle of the field against the Steelers in the super bowl and pulled away from the entire defense.  

Absolutely no explosion whatsoever....

Yeah, and Wes Welker once had a 99-yard touchdown against the Dolphins. Clearly, he must have been an "explosive" receiver as well.

The guy chasing him from behind on that play is James Harrison, a linebacker. 

Fitzgerald has played 14 years as a feature receiver, missing just 6 games combined in those 14 years, and has only 30 career catches of 40+ yards.

Julio Jones has played half that and already has 32.

Odell Beckham Jr has played only 3 seasons + 4 games and already has 22.

Anquan Boldin - he of the 4.7 40 - played the same number of years, and fewer games, and had 28.

Here's a complete list of all the receivers in NFL/AFL history with 36 or more career receiving touchdowns with more receiving touchdowns of 40+ yards than Fitzgerald:

Jerry Rice: 55

Randy Moss: 45

Terrell Owens: 40

Lance Alworth: 37

Bob Hayes: 36

Joey Galloway: 33

Don Maynard: 30

Stanley Morgan: 29

Don Hutson: 29

Steve Smith: 29

Ken Burrough: 29

Mel Gray: 28

James Lofton: 28

DeSean Jackson: 26

Tommy McDonald: 26

Elroy Hirsch: 25

Carroll Dale: 25

Wesley Walker: 24

Paul Warfield: 24

Tim Brown: 24

Santana Moss: 24

Irving Fryar: 23

Harold Jackson: 23

Homer Jones: 22

Del Shofner: 22

Cliff Branch: 21

Marvin Harrison: 21

Isaac Curtis: 21

Hugh Taylor: 21

Roy Green: 20

Gary Clark: 20

Bobby Mitchell: 20

Greg Jennings: 20

Mark Duper: 20

Chad Johnson: 19

Billy Howton: 19

Art Powell: 19

Henry Ellard: 19

Mike Wallace: 19

Jackie Smith: 18

Andre Reed: 18

Jordy Nelson: 18

Ray Renfro: 18

Drew Hill: 18

John Mackey: 17

Mark Clayton: 17

Calvin Johnson: 17

A.J. Green: 17

Ken Kavanaugh: 17

Harlon Hill: 17

Max McGee: 17

John Gilliam: 17

Lenny Moore: 17

Willie Gault: 17

Sonny Randle: 16

Mike Quick: 16

Tony Martin: 16

Tony Hill: 16

Anthony Carter: 16

Eric Moulds: 16

Frank Clarke: 16

John Taylor: 15

Anthony Miller: 15

Torry Holt: 15

Reggie Wayne: 15

Steve Largent: 15

Isaac Bruce: 15

Michael Irvin: 15

Darnay Scott: 15

Gary Garrison: 15

Gene Washington: 15

Freddie Solomon: 15

Jack Snow: 15

Otis Taylor: 15

Michael Haynes: 15

Andre Johnson: 14

Darrell Jackson: 14

Roy Jefferson: 14

Charley Taylor: 14

Curtis Conway: 14

Marcus Robinson: 14

Alfred Jenkins: 13

Bernie Casey: 13

Jimmy Smith: 13

Roddy White: 13

Cris Carter :13

Joe Horn: 13

Charley Hennigan: 13

Nate Washington: 13

Lee Evans: 13

Dwight Clark: 13

Dave Parks: 13

Julio Jones: 13

Warren Wells: 13

Odell Beckham Jr.: 12

Dez Bryant: 12

Wes Chandler: 12

Raymond Berry: 12

Art Monk: 12

Derrick Mason: 12

Billy Cannon: 12

Dante Lavelli: 12

Jeremy Maclin: 12

Louis Lipps: 12

Antonio Freeman: 12

Bill Groman: 12

Gary Ballman: 12

Johnny Blood: 12

Boyd Dowler: 11

Antonio Brown: 11

Andre Rison: 11

Donald Driver: 11

Ahmad Rashad: 11

Amani Toomer: 11

Stephone Paige: 11

Eddie Brown: 11

Braylon Edwards: 11

Bill Brooks: 11

Buddy Dial: 11

Eddie Kennison: 11

Pierre Garcon: 11

Ray Butler: 11

Haven Moses: 10

Demaryius Thomas: 10

Brandon Marshall: 10

Quinn Early: 10

Rod Smith: 10

Plaxico Burress: 10

Terance Mathis: 10

Steve Watson: 10

Herman Moore: 10

Chris Chambers: 10

Webster Slaughter: 10

Jim Mutscheller

Joe Morrison: 10

Rich Caster: 10

Elbie Nickel: 10

Ricky Sanders: 10

Michael Jackson: 9

John Stallworth: 9

Terry Glenn: 9

Lance Rentzel: 9

**** Gordon: 9

Sterling Sharpe: 9

Miles Austin: 9

Anquan Boldin: 9

Harold Carmichael: 9

Derrick Alexander: 9

Carl Pickens: 9

Ricky Proehl: 9

Sammy White: 9

Frank Gifford: 9

Marty Booker: 9

 

And here are other guys with as many (8):

Nat Moore: 8

Vernon Davis: 8

John Jefferson: 8

Reggie Rucker: 8

Drew Pearson: 8

Torrey Smith: 8

Pete Pihos: 8

Eric Martin: 8

Keenan McCardell: 8

Danny Abramowicz: 8

James Jones: 8

Charlie Joiner: 8

Hines Ward: 8

Daryl Turner: 8

Shannon Sharpe: 8

Pat Tilley: 8

 

 

And if you don't like 40 as the distance for demonstrating explosiveness (which would result in big plays and, often, not getting caught in the open field, hence long distance touchdowns), we could also try 30, but that's not going to help him.