Barr V Richardson?

[vikingsrule]

8 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

How is it a conversation? Because people are watching the games. 

Barr had a terrible year in 2016, his play improved slightly in 2017 but it was still nothing special, and through three games this year he looks like a repeat of 2016. 

Barr is a special athlete, but he’s far from a special linebacker. At best he’s got average read and react skills, he struggles to shed blocks, his coverage skills aren’t anything to write home about, and what’s worse, he plays very passively. 

Also worth adding the fact that Richardson is amongst the league leaders pressuring the QB. I'm not concerned about what he did in NY or Seattle, how has he performed as a 3T in Zimmers scheme is the only relevant factor.

Im confident in finding a Kendricks level player in round one or two to plug in at OLB. There isn't anything special about Barr.

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, vikingsrule said:

I'd argue finding a disruptive 3T is significantly harder to find than a 4-3 OLB.

The fact that Barr has been to three Pro Bowls in a row shows how weak the OLB position is in the NFL.  If he was that bad of player he would never be a Pro Bowler.  If you pay attention to prospects in college, it is not that easy to find really good OLB who are not pass rushers only.  And if he is so bad, then start Gedeon in his place, see how well they do then?

 

To take Barr over Sheldon Richardson, please that is a little much.  If you want to save money sure go for Richardson but in terms of pure talents they are not really all that close.  Barr has far more upside and potential and is still a young prospect, to me Richardson is just not the same player and either time or injuries have made him less explosive.  

 

But yeah if you want to say a player is playing very passively, you could say that entire Vikings defense is playing very passively and are struggling to read and react this year.

[Cearbhall]

1 hour ago, vikingsrule said:

I'd argue finding a disruptive 3T is significantly harder to find than a 4-3 OLB.

You aren't going to have to argue with me about that. Finding an average 4-3 OLB is relatively easy. It isn't easy necessarily to find a 4-3 OLB but relative to 3T, it is IMO.

[Kparty15]

This year is a terrible OLB draft class and an elite DT draft class.  That should play a huge factor when deciding who to keep.

Also on a side note I hope Everson Griffen is able to recover and make a comeback, but there is the outside chance that Griffen isn’t able to come back to football which would take his money off the books and give us room to resign both Barr and Richardson.  Hopefully it doesn’t come down to that though.

[Cearbhall]

3 minutes ago, Kparty15 said:

This year is a terrible OLB draft class and an elite DT draft class.  That should play a huge factor when deciding who to keep.

I wouldn't let the quality of the draft have any bearing on the decision. The draft is not the plan a team should have for addressing immediate needs. Immediate needs should be filled by internal promotion when a depth player earns it or with free agents otherwise.

The draft should be used to take grab the best players available at positions of impending need. If the draft picks prove themselves capable of taking a spot they are promoted. If not, the team needs to fill that need with a free agent when the impending need becomes an immediate need.

For example, the team drafted Mike Hughes because they saw CB as a position of impending need and thought he was the best player available. If he gets promoted ahead of Alexander they are good to let Alexander go after his contract is up (after '19) or keep him as deeper depth on a contract that reflects that. If Hughes can't beat out Alexander by the end of the year (and he might already have) the team will need to continue looking at CB as an impending need until after '19 when it becomes an immediate need.

When an immediate need is filled by a journeyman free agent it may no longer be an immediate need but it is still an impending need. This is common. It is a mistake to not get at least a stop gap and rely on the draft to fill the immediate need. You end up with the man of Steele -- Christian Ponder.

If the team doesn't bring back Richardson, I project them to have an immediate need there as it doesn't look to me like any of the draft picks they have brought in will have earned the chance to be counted on as even the stopgap solution. Would be great if J. Johnson or Holmes steps up to the plate and changes that projection but until they do that is how I see the current state.

If the team doesn't bring back Anthony Barr, I also project that the team will have an immediate need. Eric Wilson is the best candidate to earn consideration to change that state IMO. Until he does, that is how I see the current state there.

As such, I wouldn't be relying on the draft to fill either position. The team can sign someone to be a longer-term solution (maybe Barr or Richardson), promote from within, or sign a stopgap. In either of the last two options the position is likely an impending need the team may draft a candidate to fill but they should absolutely not go with the fourth option of relying on the draft to fill a hole in the starting lineup.

[vikingsrule]

47 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

The fact that Barr has been to three Pro Bowls in a row shows how weak the OLB position is in the NFL.  If he was that bad of player he would never be a Pro Bowler.  If you pay attention to prospects in college, it is not that easy to find really good OLB who are not pass rushers only.  And if he is so bad, then start Gedeon in his place, see how well they do then?

 

To take Barr over Sheldon Richardson, please that is a little much.  If you want to save money sure go for Richardson but in terms of pure talents they are not really all that close.  Barr has far more upside and potential and is still a young prospect, to me Richardson is just not the same player and either time or injuries have made him less explosive.  

 

But yeah if you want to say a player is playing very passively, you could say that entire Vikings defense is playing very passively and are struggling to read and react this year.

Richardson is going to cost more than Barr imo.

[Ozzy]

13 minutes ago, Kparty15 said:

This year is a terrible OLB draft class and an elite DT draft class.  That should play a huge factor when deciding who to keep.

Also on a side note I hope Everson Griffen is able to recover and make a comeback, but there is the outside chance that Griffen isn’t able to come back to football which would take his money off the books and give us room to resign both Barr and Richardson.  Hopefully it doesn’t come down to that though.

Yeah I agree with that with the OLB group being some what weak.  The upper level DTs in next years draft will be gone by when the Vikings pick, but with how the team looks so far this year maybe they will be more in the middle of the pack and be able to steal a guy like Jeffery Simmons or Christian Wilkins.  Or would have to wait for the second round and maybe a guy like Rashard Lawrence or Terry Beckner Jr, or a project potential guy in Youhanna Ghaifan even if he still has a long ways to go in terms of his power.  

 

 

At OLB Allen will be gone but he would be a great replacement for Barr if they indeed want to do that.  Would take time to adjust to the game and learn but is a promising edge rusher who is athletic enough I feel to play OLB in a 4/3 but a lot of teams will want him in a 3/4.  Could also go with Chase Hansen but he still might be a safety at the next level will see, is doing ok in his transition to OLB though, and I really like Justin Hollins as a big long athlete but again it will take time for him to learn and get stronger.  Or could go with Van Ginkel, he could fit well in a 4/3 I think with his athletic ability, or Gustin but Gustin is more a 3/4 OLB and is best when rushing, same with Sweat but might be a good enough athlete to play in a 4/3 in coverage but will see.

 

OLB

Josh Allen Kentucky
Justin Hollins Oregon RS
Chase Hansen Utah RS
Gary Johnson Texas
Andrew Van Ginkel Wisconsin RS
Joe Giles Harris Duke RS JR
Porter Gustin USC
Montez Sweat Miss State
David Long Jr West Virginia RS JR
Markus Bailey Purdue JR
Te'von Coney Notre Dame
Khaleke Hudson Michigan JR
Anfernee Jennings Alabama RS JR
Germaine Pratt NC State
Sione Takitaki BYU
Drue Tranquill Notre Dame

 

 

 

The ILB spot is some what deep with talent one could grab later.  Could maybe get Fisher or Bachie in the late first but then would have to move Kendricks to OLB and not sure he would do all that well against TEs that is for sure.  Or maybe could put one of those two at OLB, same with Cameron Smith he could play OLB as well as the other ILBs I listed who are in the Vikings range come draft time potentially.   No way we are drafting in time to get White or Bush though I feel, both could play inside or outside arguably.   

ILB who could maybe play OLB

 

Devin White LSU JR
Devin Bush Michigan JR
Paddy Fisher Northwestern RS SOPH
Joe Bachie Michigan State JR
Cameron Smith USC
Ryan Connelly Wisconsin RS
Bobby Okereke Stanford RS
Azeez Al-Shaair FAU
Darrell Williams Auburn
Dakota Allen Texas Tech

 

 

 

Then the DT spot of course but again cannot even think about the top end guys to be honest.  But sure would be nice to get a guy like Lawrence or Brown, a big NT with crazy athletic ability to finalize the inside of the D and help improve the run D and pass rush overall.  Still will probably not be able to get either one and they will be gone.

DT

Ed Oliver Houston JR
Raekwon Davis Alabama JR
Dexter Lawrence Clemson JR
Christian Wilkins Clemson
Derrick Brown Auburn JR
Jeffery Simmons Miss State JR
Rashard Lawrence LSU JR
Youhanna Ghaifan Wyoming RS JR
Terry Beckner Jr Missouri
Ross Blacklock TCU RS SOPH
Jerry Tillery Notre Dame
Gerald Willis III Miami FL RS
Daylon Mack Texas A&M

 

 

But sure is an option to get rid of Barr but one better really like one of those other OLB options to go ahead and do that.  And I still say spending money on specifically Richardson over Barr might not be the best option.  It would have to be Richardson and spend the rest one someone else, not an this or that scenario.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VikeManDan]

Certainly justifiable...

"Chris Conte might have been the victim of the most embarrassing play of the 2018 season when he was stiff-armed onto injured reserve by Vance McDonaldin Week 3, but nobody has been on the receiving end of as many notable big plays as Barr over the first month of the campaign. Some aren't necessarily his fault; while he was the closest defender in coverage on three different touchdowns against the Rams, Barr can't reasonably be expected to carry Cooper Kupp up the sideline on a "leak concept." No linebacker in the league is going to cover Robert Woods up the seam, let alone Barr.

During Week 3, though, Barr was made to look foolish more than once by Bills quarterback Josh Allen in the latter's first NFL start. Barr was the defender Allen hurdled on the most spectacular run from that game, which will earn Barr poster status in Western New York for the foreseeable future. The former first-round pick is in a contract year and wasn't locked up to an extension over the offseason. Based on his early-season form, the Vikings won't be able to justify bringing Barr back on an eight-figure annual salary again in 2019."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24853008/2018-nfl-quarter-season-awards-bill-barnwell-picks-mvp-offensive-defensive-players-year-best-rookies 

[vikingsrule]

If Zimmer wants to play his LB that much in coverage down the field, he may as well just use an extra Safety in that spot and rotate Barr in along the DL or specifc blitz packages. Unless Zimmer changes his scheme some, were exposed when Barr is covering the slot WR.

[VikeManDan]

I do agree that Zim has put Barr in some unfavorable situations, with that being said, Barr just looks disinterested and lazy out there. 

[Uncle Buck]

Pretty easy decision to make as of Week 4.  I've been saying all offseason that if we had to choose between Barr and Waynes, we should keep Waynes and let Barr go.  I still feel that way.

When it comes to comparing Barr to Richardson, give me Richardson without a second thought.  On the other hand, this is supposed to be a very deep draft for defensive tackles, so maybe Richardson is expendable too, and we can use the money elsewhere, such as the offensive line.

[TENINCH]

I'd prefer giving Johnson the starting job and using the money we'd pay one of these guy on a free agent offensive line that can help protect Kirk.

[vikingsrule]

49 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

Pretty easy decision to make as of Week 4.  I've been saying all offseason that if we had to choose between Barr and Waynes, we should keep Waynes and let Barr go.  I still feel that way.

When it comes to comparing Barr to Richardson, give me Richardson without a second thought.  On the other hand, this is supposed to be a very deep draft for defensive tackles, so maybe Richardson is expendable too, and we can use the money elsewhere, such as the offensive line.

If more money is needed, they can probably get it by releasing Remmers and Sendejo. I don't think either player has any long term value. Richardson still needs to be made a priority if he can be had for a reasonable amount.

I'm not convinced that Waynes needs to be kept either but he is under contract through 2019 so that decision doesn't have to be made yet. 

[Guest]

Hasn't Richardson kind of disappeared the last couple of games?  Sure looked like Sullivan and the Rams OLine had a good game against Richardson and Joseph.

[vikingsrule]

5 hours ago, Virginia Viking said:

Hasn't Richardson kind of disappeared the last couple of games?  Sure looked like Sullivan and the Rams OLine had a good game against Richardson and Joseph.

You could say that about the entire defense though. No one had played well on defense the last two weeks. Except maybe Hunter.