Broncofan Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, champ11 said: Haha, I figured you were getting some vacation time in. It's been a particularly slow offseason league wide, for sure. It's nice to have a Broncos season without a QB controversy even though we don't have too many great storylines going on. Yeah, as much as I'm not a Keenum fan, it's good to know the Lynch experiment is coming to an end. From the moment we drafted him, the need to give him at least 3 offseasons came with the choice of drafting him (taking him was the mistake, once we took him, we had to give him this time). Elway deserves all the criticism he gets for Lynch pick, but he had to see this through. But it's so much cleaner to move on now. We all could see it coming after last year, but that's the price that comes with taking a project on Day 1, and frankly, projects on Day 2 as well. It's important we have a 2019 plan we feel comfortable with at QB - because man, if people had Q's on the 2018 QB draft class, the 2019 class is nowhere near as good as 2018's was. Not even close. Even if guys surge up, they'll come with way less pedigree of good play, and thus way more Q's on their projectibility than the 2018 class did. I hope we have our long-term answer either way, but if not, we would be really screwed if Elway felt like he had to reach for QB next draft early. A guy like Rosen would have been the 1.1 or 1.2 in most years, and would have been next year's #1 by a mile IMO - so anyone who does show more this season is likely to go super early, well ahead of where we're likely to end up even if our QB play struggles. Next year, we do NOT want to be saying "we need QB" towards draft time (trenches is where it's at, best T class in a while, and man, those DL/EDGE guys - historic perhaps in talent there with Oliver/Bosa and the Clemson guys already, not to mention others). I do think it's why Keenum was signed to a 2-year deal that Elway could walk away from via trade early, but otherwise is committed to for 2018-19 - next year's QB class is not worth reaching early for. If Keenum/Kelly aren't the answers, 2020 is the draft target in Elway's eyes IMO. The WAS game will give us a MUCH better idea of where we stand in our 2 key weaknesses - that WAS DL is surging up, with Payne joining Preston Smith, Anderson in year 2, and Allen back from injury. So how we fare in the 1H in run blocking and pass pro will speak volumes to where our new OL is at. And on D, that's the definition of a JAG-laden WR/RB corps - so how our pass coverage does against Captain Checkdown in the 1H will tell us how much of a problem our secondary is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 37 minutes ago, Broncofan said: He's clearly worth seeing if he's our long-term guy, why he should be our #2. But he's nowhere near a lock to be a future starter based on 2 games. I guess though he should automatically be anointed starter because of 2 preseason games vs. 2nd-3rd teamers? When we know the preseason is far from good at showing if a guy can actually play at starter's level? Right, I get it. Remember, I say all the above firmly against any vet brought in to be the #2. But maybe let's all take a balanced and reasoned view instead of swinging too high / too low on guys. Let's not go Sloter-is-the-GOAT V2 all over again. No....my point is, Kelly is essentially a rookie, just as Rosen is...Rosen isn't starting right away, neither should Kelly. But the difference is that Rosen is clearly the QBOTF for the Cardinal because he was a first rounder, I am guessing....we can make that assumption. But, why not Kelly? Why can't he be treated the same way? If anything he has a leg up on a guy like Rosen considering that he got to sit in an NFL QB room and study on the job. I mean, Kelly hasn't shown any reason to doubt that he is the QBOTF other than he hasn't played against first teamers...but neither has Rosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 hour ago, jsthomp2007 said: No....my point is, Kelly is essentially a rookie, just as Rosen is...Rosen isn't starting right away, neither should Kelly. But the difference is that Rosen is clearly the QBOTF for the Cardinal because he was a first rounder, I am guessing....we can make that assumption. But, why not Kelly? Why can't he be treated the same way? If anything he has a leg up on a guy like Rosen considering that he got to sit in an NFL QB room and study on the job. I mean, Kelly hasn't shown any reason to doubt that he is the QBOTF other than he hasn't played against first teamers...but neither has Rosen. That's fair - when I say QBOTF, I meant the projected year 2 starter. It's way too early to say that for Kelly based on 2 games. But yes, if Keenum isn't the guy, Kelly should be the 2 guy. And Kelly's the guy we should give the next shot to if Keenum isn't the long-term solution (and I really do fear that's the case, I think he's OK, and a clear upgrade over what we've had the last 2 seasons, but not a foundation piece, especially at 18-20M+ per year). Rosen on the other hand, is the 2019 starter - Bradford is old (well his body is, to be clear), and he's signed to 1 year. And Rosen's level of play has been projectible to be NFL-level starter. The main reason why Rosen will fail is if he gets injured. The skillset, this is as safe as any recent candidates have been (which is still not 100 percent, you can't be in today's college, but he's as close as it gets, along with Darnold - Darnold's ceiling is higher, but he's further behind and not quite as safe floor-wise as Rosen). Sustained success for years, with NFL-caliber anticipation, timing and placement. There's a reason why Rosen & Darnold were long considered the top guys and so much debate on 1.1 vs. 1.2 discussion from before their 2017 seasons. That's pretty rare, because the projectible NFL skills were on display so early in college. I'm a big proponent of sustained early success at a young age vs. good competition, that's more reliable a predictor of NFL success than any tool in draft evaluation. For all his tools, Kelly's college play shows where he needs to improve to be that kind of player. The good news is the toolset is there, and you can't teach that - but there are many more weaknesses in his game, too. Potentially fixable ones, as long as he's got the ability to learn and adapt to NFL-speed (Lynch is still playing at Pop Warner speed right now). The thing is, that ability to learn at NFL speed is not guaranteed. We already see Rosen flashing it in college, and have for 2+ years there - where Kelly showed big flags in those processing areas. Those are the hardest to learn, and the reason why most physically talented QB's fail. On the flip side, you can coach the hell out of the smartest guy, and if he doesn't have the tools, well, he won't succeed at a high level, either. That was Siemian in a lot of ways (although his hesitation at pushing the ball is between the ears, but the other limits were physical). And Lynch literally showed zero ability there. So Kelly's got the physical tools, and he's shown he can progress after 1 offseason in the mental processing areas, so he's our clear #2 guy. Again, I'm totally against bringing a vet to be our #2 - if Keenum goes down or isn't even good...we ride the Kelly train to see if he can be that guy. It's just a far, far road from calling him our 2019 starter, even if Keenum falls flat on his face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncosFan2010 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Rosen has an ability to read a defense that Kelly simply didn't have coming out. He also has an elite release, picture perfect, while Kelly is 'only' above average there IMO. Rosen is also 3 years younger and showed a far more advanced pre-snap ability than Kelly ever did in college. The difference between 21 and 24 is pretty huge developmentally. Don't get me wrong, Kelly has the tools and is a better athlete than Rosen. But Josh, as a QB prospect, was on a different level when it comes to the small, but hugely important stuff; footwork, pre snap reads, mechanics, progressions, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 If the Broncos bring in a vet minimum QB to be QB2 I will lose my ish. And that's not bc I am super high on Kelly. It'd be idiotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 2 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said: Rosen has an ability to read a defense that Kelly simply didn't have coming out. He also has an elite release, picture perfect, while Kelly is 'only' above average there IMO. Rosen is also 3 years younger and showed a far more advanced pre-snap ability than Kelly ever did in college. The difference between 21 and 24 is pretty huge developmentally. Don't get me wrong, Kelly has the tools and is a better athlete than Rosen. But Josh, as a QB prospect, was on a different level when it comes to the small, but hugely important stuff; footwork, pre snap reads, mechanics, progressions, etc. And, yet, could see Rosen being a bust, because he is kind of an a$$hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I prefer Kelly to Rosen and I'm not saying that as a bronco fan. Kelly reminds me of Mayfield in the sense he can make plays off script . It's not running qb bad but its just enough to add to his game. Mayfield is better in the aspect thats why he was the #1 pick but Kelly is in the ball park. So what Rosen does in the conventional way Kelly closes the gap making plays with the off script stuff I actually think Kelly getting first team reps is being underestimated as just competing to be the backup . I truly think he is gaining ground on keenum and they don't want to make it a qb controversy yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncosFan2010 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Quote And, yet, could see Rosen being a bust, because he is kind of an a$$hole. Kelly at 21 was a complete ******. Rosen at 21 has attitude issues. One has matured, why not give the same benefits of doubt to the other? Quote I actually think Kelly getting first team reps is being underestimated as just competing to be the backup . I truly think he is gaining ground on keenum and they don't want to make it a qb controversy yet. Elway didn't pay Case 22M to start a R7 QB over him. The only way Kelly gets a start is via injury or a total breakdown by Case + losses (IE: If Case is playing bad, but we still steal wins, he will remain the starter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 hour ago, BroncosFan2010 said: Kelly at 21 was a complete ******. Rosen at 21 has attitude issues. One has matured, why not give the same benefits of doubt to the other? Elway didn't pay Case 22M to start a R7 QB over him. The only way Kelly gets a start is via injury or a total breakdown by Case + losses (IE: If Case is playing bad, but we still steal wins, he will remain the starter). Yeah Kelly at 21 was a complete hot mess. Rosen has nothing on what Kelly was in college. And as much as I think Keenum is likely league average, and just a stopgap - he’s getting the starts until he falls flat on his face and we are losing so much we have to think 2019. If he’s decent and we aren’t out of it he’ll stay barring injury. If he’s mediocre but we are winning same deal. I’ll be right there hoping Kelly gets starts if we aren’t in contention ASAP but Elway’s not wired to let Kelly learn on the job until we are out of it this year. Zero chance on that front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRNA Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 7 hours ago, jsthomp2007 said: So, if we had drafted Rosen, we couldn't have called him QBOTF, because HE would have been QB2. We'd had wasted the prick, essentially because he had not faced better competition. I get it. So jst, if Kelly keeps improving it'll make Elways decision to pass on a QB and draft Chubb look pretty smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 15 hours ago, AKRNA said: So jst, if Kelly keeps improving it'll make Elways decision to pass on a QB and draft Chubb look pretty smart. I would think so...or lucky...smart or lucky...who cares as long as we have a long-term answer at QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncosFan2010 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Quote I would think so...or lucky...smart or lucky...who cares as long as we have a long-term answer at QB? Definatley this. But football is about as much luck as it is smart. The McDisaster leading to Von is a tell tale example of this, if he didn't run the team into the ground we don't get Von, we don't have our generational defense and we don't win a Superb Owl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 What are the thoughts on Chubb? I know the media is hyping him but have we been impressed? Haven't heard or seen many highlights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 10 minutes ago, champ11 said: What are the thoughts on Chubb? I know the media is hyping him but have we been impressed? Haven't heard or seen many highlights Pretty much as advertised - high motor good technique - not a massive disruptor on his own as a pass rusher. The sack / safety was a result of a botched snap. The scouting reports, tape and Combine all said at NFL level he’s a glue guy - happy to have him, but not the alpha leading the charge. He’s still adapting to NFL speed and the power increase. That’s to be expected. This isn’t Myles Garrett V2 though, not his profile (who showed the difference again last night - impressive). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, Broncofan said: Pretty much as advertised - high motor good technique - not a massive disruptor on his own as a pass rusher. The sack / safety was a result of a botched snap. The scouting reports, tape and Combine all said at NFL level he’s a glue guy - happy to have him, but not the alpha leading the charge. He’s still adapting to NFL speed and the power increase. That’s to be expected. This isn’t Myles Garrett V2 though, not his profile (who showed the difference again last night - impressive). I don't think he needs to be the alpha, does he? If he etched out a Terrell Suggs type of career, that would be okay with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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