Game of Thrones - Our Watch has Ended

[sunnygsm]

8 minutes ago, mse326 said:

Everyone complaining about plot armor. There has literally never been a story where characters don't have plot armor. If they are need for the plot they can't die. Telling the plot won't work otherwise. Every character that has ever died in any medium has never been needed later for the plot in their alive state. Sometimes their death is needed to drive the plot, but that is not relevant. The only thing GRRM did was trick people into thinking who was important for the plot when they weren't. That is why killing Ned and Robb seemed like him going against plot armor. But their importance was a merely a red herring. They were never important for the plot and therefore didn't need armor. No story teller kills indiscriminately. 

But they should kill people when they've put their characters in situations that they can't logically survive. People can't tell me that Podrick has a major role in the next three episodes. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 minutes ago, sunnygsm said:

But they should kill people when they've put their characters in situations that they can't logically survive. People can't tell me that Podrick has a major role in the next three episodes. 

Hell, you can't even convince me that Jaime should have a major role in the next episodes. He has ONE FREAKING HAND and has admitted several times he can't fight, yet just held his position against like 1,000 wights for 30 minutes in battle. It was perfectly setup to have him and Brienne die. Hell, there were scenes where Brienne should have died.

That's my biggest complaint about this episode - characters surviving when they shouldn't have. I don't have a major flaw with the execution of Arya's kill or even that Arya did it. However, seeing Jon surrounded by newly raised dead only to then pan back to him successfully fighting them off one-by-one was a huge demoralizer.

[ramssuperbowl99]

7 minutes ago, mse326 said:

Everyone complaining about plot armor. There has literally never been a story where characters don't have plot armor. If they are need for the plot they can't die. Telling the plot won't work otherwise. Every character that has ever died in any medium has never been needed later for the plot in their alive state. Sometimes their death is needed to drive the plot, but that is not relevant. The only thing GRRM did was trick people into thinking who was important for the plot when they weren't. That is why killing Ned and Robb seemed like him going against plot armor. But their importance was a merely a red herring. They were never important for the plot and therefore didn't need armor. No story teller kills indiscriminately. 

The "GRRM's goal was to kill plot armor" take is just the absolute worst. 

Beric Dondarian had plot armor in the most literal sense possible the entire time. He was killed over and over and brought back to life, and the reason was because the story wasn't done with him yet. "You can't die yet, you have something to do still." So did the Hound. So did Jon Snow. And apparently, that was good, realistic storytelling but the part that is just unspeakable to people is that a trained ninja assassin who can change her appearance at will was sneaky.

[mse326]

3 minutes ago, sunnygsm said:

But they should kill people when they've put their characters in situations that they can't logically survive. People can't tell me that Podrick has a major role in the next three episodes. 

Why couldn't he logically survive? The wights have never been great fighters. They succeed based on numbers. It doesn't take skill per se to defeat the one in front of you. Surviving then even for those that aren't skilled is down to luck. There is no reason that Pod necessarily would have died any more than the extras we know nothing about. Did you want them to kill off every minor character you've heard of?

[Calvert28]

18 minutes ago, mse326 said:

Everyone complaining about plot armor. There has literally never been a story where characters don't have plot armor. If they are need for the plot they can't die. Telling the plot won't work otherwise. Every character that has ever died in any medium has never been needed later for the plot in their alive state. Sometimes their death is needed to drive the plot, but that is not relevant. The only thing GRRM did was trick people into thinking who was important for the plot when they weren't. That is why killing Ned and Robb seemed like him going against plot armor. But their importance was a merely a red herring. They were never important for the plot and therefore didn't need armor. No story teller kills indiscriminately. 

Martin has done it beautifully for the books too. But if there was a misdirection on his part, it is definitely laid out in the details that gives you goosebumps when you see it happening later about how wrong your prediction was.

Jaqen Hagar was a faceless man who seemed to have killed somebody in King's Landing. Yet next time we see him, he takes the face of some no name apprentice Maester to infiltrate the Citadel which leaves you  millions of questions as to why. But Martin actually explains it, and explains it well. If Arya was meant to be the one who did it in the show and they had it planned for years as they say. Then they would have cleverly left out the prophecy about the "Prince who was Promised" and simply talked about Azor Ahai. Rewording it here and there "cleverely" to set her up as it. Not just reference some blue statement that wasn't paused upon to give it relevance. Or reference here and there throughout the rest of the seasons as to why she was the one who was meant to kill the NK.

Not to mention alot of these characters may be dying the next couple of episodes and instead of giving them a great death like Lyanna Mormont and Jorah, they are gonna be rushed and cheapened for the sake of trying to fit it all in. Plot armor is going to ruin their endings.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Calvert28

[mse326]

Also people saying the Bran is so powerful he should just be able to end this. There is no logical reason for him to actually suport Dany/Jon against Cersei. He is the 3ER now, not Bran. His allegiance is to the living alone, not a family. He shouldn't have any vested interest in who ultimately rules The Seven Kingdoms. Just like the previous one stayed out of the matters of men, so should he.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 minute ago, mse326 said:

Also people saying the Bran is so powerful he should just be able to end this. There is no logical reason for him to actually suport Dany/Jon against Cersei. He is the 3ER now, not Bran. His allegiance is to the living alone, not a family. He shouldn't have any vested interest in who ultimately rules The Seven Kingdoms. Just like the previous one stayed out of the matters of men, so should he.

Is there anything to indicate he hasn't?

[mse326]

3 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Martin has done it beautifully for the books too. But if there was a misdirection on his part, it is definitely laid out in the details that gives you goosebumps when you see it happening later about how wrong your prediction was.

Jaqen Hagar was a faceless man who seemed to have killed somebody in King's Landing. Yet next time we see him, he takes the face of some no name apprentice Maester to infiltrate the Citadel which leaves you  millions of questions as to why. But Martin actually explains it, and explains it well. If Arya was meant to be the one who did it in the show and they had it planned for years as they say. Then they would have cleverly left out the prophecy about the "Prince who was Promised" and simply talked about Azor Ahai. Rewording it here and there "cleverely" to set her up as it. Not just reference some blue statement that wasn't paused upon to give it relevance. Or reference here and there throughout the rest of the seasons as to why she was the one who was meant to kill the NK.

Not to mention alot of these characters may be dying the next couple of episodes and instead of giving them a great death like Lyanna Mormont, they are gonna be rushed and cheapened for the sake of trying to fit it all in.

They did explain. Missandei corrected the Prince who was Promised prophesy telling them the word in it actual language had no gender. It could be Prince OR Princess. 

[mse326]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Is there anything to indicate he hasn't?

No I'm talking to the people saying that with Bran's powers Cersei is no match. I'm saying that isn't relevant because Bran, based on the story, shouldn't be involved.

[Calvert28]

4 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

The "GRRM's goal was to kill plot armor" take is just the absolute worst. 

Beric Dondarian had plot armor in the most literal sense possible the entire time. He was killed over and over and brought back to life, and the reason was because the story wasn't done with him yet. "You can't die yet, you have something to do still." So did the Hound. So did Jon Snow. And apparently, that was good, realistic storytelling but the part that is just unspeakable to people is that a trained ninja assassin who can change her appearance at will was sneaky.

I don't see how. Beric in the books starts losing his humanity the more he is brought back and you can see it with the Grey Lady and the rest of the Brotherhood without banners. You can clearly see them all becoming more and more vengful instead of fighting the good fight. Martin had no part in this show writing Beric anyone who thinks differently seriously needs to go read some of Brienne's last chapters in Dance of Dragons. That is all D&D.

[ramssuperbowl99]

Just now, mse326 said:

They did explain. Missandei corrected the Prince who was Promised prophesy telling them the word in it actual language had no gender. It could be Prince OR Princess. 

And in the books there are 3 mythical hero figures; the Last Hero, the Prince Who Was Promised, and Azor Ahai. The show has merged these into one, and the common thought is that they are the same person, but Dany/Jon/Arya could be that trio.

[ramssuperbowl99]

Just now, Calvert28 said:

I don't see how. Beric in the books starts losing his humanity the more he is brought back and you can see it with the Grey Lady and the rest of the Brotherhood without banners. You can clearly see them all becoming more and more vengful instead of fighting the good fight. Martin had no part in this show writing Beric anyone who thinks differently seriously needs to go read some of Brienne's last chapters in Dance of Dragons. That is all D&D.

You don't see how a guy who literally can't die because god needs him for part of the story is plot armor. Are you ******* kidding.

[amac]

5 minutes ago, mse326 said:

Also people saying the Bran is so powerful he should just be able to end this. There is no logical reason for him to actually suport Dany/Jon against Cersei. He is the 3ER now, not Bran. His allegiance is to the living alone, not a family. He shouldn't have any vested interest in who ultimately rules The Seven Kingdoms. Just like the previous one stayed out of the matters of men, so should he.

Such a terrible character arc unless there’s some major twist coming

[sunnygsm]

3 minutes ago, mse326 said:

Why couldn't he logically survive? The wights have never been great fighters. They succeed based on numbers. It doesn't take skill per se to defeat the one in front of you. Surviving then even for those that aren't skilled is down to luck. There is no reason that Pod necessarily would have died any more than the extras we know nothing about. Did you want them to kill off every minor character you've heard of?

And they had overwhelming numbers. To the extent that the Dothraki and unsullied, who are far better fighters than Pod/Sam, got wiped out. They should have died because they showed characters getting overwhelmed by numbers multiple times. I would have been ok if they didn't repeatedly show the characters in hopeless situations (I e., Surrounded by wights).

[Calvert28]

4 minutes ago, mse326 said:

Also people saying the Bran is so powerful he should just be able to end this. There is no logical reason for him to actually suport Dany/Jon against Cersei. He is the 3ER now, not Bran. His allegiance is to the living alone, not a family. He shouldn't have any vested interest in who ultimately rules The Seven Kingdoms. Just like the previous one stayed out of the matters of men, so should he.

There hasn't been much logic in the writing. Especially when a number of people who are fighting 10's of dozens of Wights just up and live when before, these things would just go straight up NFL Blitz mode on you, tackle you and then kill you which didn't seem to happen this episode.