Game of Thrones - Our Watch has Ended

[Calvert28]

13 minutes ago, skywindO2 said:

I took the "we knew it would be Arya" to mean that they decided Arya would be the one to do it, not that it came from GRRM himself. I guess it's as ambiguous or unambigous as you want it to be. 

Nothing came from GRRM they are just assuming as they always do.

[Calvert28]

18 minutes ago, sunnygsm said:

Well presumably she walks to King's Landing first... I assumed that part was obvious. What if she uses a face and pretends to be Jaime/Euron?

Why would she even need a dragon to get to KL next episode. tThe guy who says he's already watched the series has already forgotten these characters have Instant Transmission to be able to pop up on the other side of the continent a episode later. Hell they can build a 1000 ships in one episode.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Calvert28

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

I don't think you have a good grasp of what plot armor is.  Plot armor isn't a character not dying.  It's putting said character in a situation where it strains the suspension of disbelief that they didn't die.

That's why when you have a scene where a character is piled on by 30 stabbing wights, then cut away, then show them later as fine again, that's plot armor.  A character surviving isn't necessarily plot armor.

One situation that strains disbelief that a character doesn't die is a character dying 6 times and then being brought back to life.

[Calvert28]

Just now, ramssuperbowl99 said:

One situation that strains disbelief that a character doesn't die is a character dying 6 times and then being brought back to life.

Didn't read my comment on that earlier or are you just talking about the TV show?

[Calvert28]

43 minutes ago, Superman(DH23) said:

The Jon has always been the hero and the savior comment was about leaving Sam.  We hoped to avoid the expected was not about choosing Arya.  Its cherry picking quotes out of context

No it isn't They didn't even show Sam on the screen being left by Jon. That comment was done right after they got done talking about Arya taking out the NK.

[ramssuperbowl99]

Just now, Calvert28 said:

Didn't read my comment on that earlier or are you just talking about the TV show?

I absolutely did, and I'll be honest I was being sarcastic to @Daniel because that is not what plot armor is, nor is it what book fans tout when they talk about how great the books are because GRRM destroyed plot armor.

Plot armor is a self-contained definition: the character can't die because the character is essential to the plot. Fans of the books will say that characters die when they are supposed to based on rational decisions: choices the characters make, how quickly armies can move, etc. etc. and that's just not true. Beric Dondarian should be dead, full stop. He was revived for the sake of the story. 

You could argue that Beric's plot armor is okay with you because GRRM is openly admitting it, just like when a time travel movie says "yeah this won't make sense just go with it" and that is a different type of plot armor than having Jon Snow survive being surrounded by Wights or whatever. There's reasonable room to disagree on the quality of different types of plot armor.

But he is alive because he has something to contribute to the story - full stop. That's not my interpretation either, that's literally how it's presented. The Lord of Light needed him to do something, so he's back. He can't die because he's essential to the plot. That's the same trope that book fans have been going after every superhero movie in existence for, written plain as day.

[Calvert28]

30 minutes ago, skywindO2 said:

I took the "we knew it would be Arya" to mean that they decided Arya would be the one to do it, not that it came from GRRM himself. I guess it's as ambiguous or unambigous as you want it to be. 

It was, they literally talked about why they didn't choose Jon right afterwards. Watching the interview right now.

[Calvert28]

1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

I absolutely did, and I'll be honest I was being sarcastic to @Daniel because that is not what plot armor is, nor is it what book fans tout when they talk about how great the books are because GRRM destroyed plot armor.

Plot armor is a self-contained definition: the character can't die because the character is essential to the plot. Fans of the books will say that characters die when they are supposed to based on rational decisions: choices the characters make, how quickly armies can move, etc. etc. and that's just not true. Beric Dondarian should be dead, full stop. He was revived for the sake of the story. 

You could argue that Beric's plot armor is okay with you because GRRM is openly admitting it, just like when a time travel movie says "yeah this won't make sense just go with it" and that is a different type of plot armor than having Jon Snow survive being surrounded by Wights or whatever. There's reasonable room to disagree on the quality of different types of plot armor.

But he is alive because he has something to contribute to the story - full stop. That's not my interpretation either, that's literally how it's presented. The Lord of Light needed him to do something, so he's back. He can't die because he's essential to the plot. That's the same trope that book fans have been going after every superhero movie in existence for, written plain as day.

I agree that the way they kept him alive in the show just for that one purpose was dumb. It's not like the Hound couldn't serve. What they do with him in the books is far better.

[LeeEvans]

1 minute ago, Calvert28 said:

It was, they literally talked about why they didn't choose Jon right afterwards. Watching the interview right now.

Yeah I just watched it right now. I stand by all my initial comments. 

Their comments were "we thought she was the best candidate because no one was thinking about her in that moment". And they the go on to explain that having so many characters in the battle let them pull people's attention elsewhere. 

The comments about Jon not being the one to be the one because it "didnt feel right" are baffling. His entire storyline has led to this, why would you choose someone who has no involvement with the army of the dead? 

[ramssuperbowl99]

Just now, Calvert28 said:

I agree that the way they kept him alive in the show just for that one purpose was dumb. It's not like the Hound couldn't serve. What they do with him in the books is far better.

The same thing happens in the books. He's still brought back to revive Cat into Lady Stoneheart, and the rationale presented for why he is revived is largely the same. LIS, you can argue that openly admitting it's plot armor and keeping it on a character who is more peripheral is better than going into a superhero movie knowing that the hero will live because it's less impactful and opens up more opportunities for other parts of the story to have suspense, but it is plot armor.

[Daniel]

46 minutes ago, LeeEvans said:

I dont really want to get into this again but she managed to sneak past (barely) about ten wights, not an entire castle grounds full of them. And also not mentioning the fact that she was running through the halls being chased by them a minute later. 

So after rewatching that scene, I think I'm with yall that there's nothing to be bothered about by this.  With the wind blowing the one WW's hair and looking over his shoulder, it looked like she didn't so much as sneak as just run in past them.  The WW just didn't have time to react before she was on the NK.

13 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

One situation that strains disbelief that a character doesn't die is a character dying 6 times and then being brought back to life.

No it doesn't man.  That is an element of the story, and as I've tried to explain to you, that works within the rules of the story.  Again, the genre of the story doesn't change how suspended your disbelief is supposed to be.

2 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

I absolutely did, and I'll be honest I was being sarcastic to @Daniel because that is not what plot armor is, nor is it what book fans tout when they talk about how great the books are because GRRM destroyed plot armor.

Plot armor is a self-contained definition: the character can't die because the character is essential to the plot. Fans of the books will say that characters die when they are supposed to based on rational decisions: choices the characters make, how quickly armies can move, etc. etc. and that's just not true. Beric Dondarian should be dead, full stop. He was revived for the sake of the story. 

You could argue that Beric's plot armor is okay with you because GRRM is openly admitting it, just like when a time travel movie says "yeah this won't make sense just go with it" and that is a different type of plot armor than having Jon Snow survive being surrounded by Wights or whatever. There's reasonable room to disagree on the quality of different types of plot armor.

But he is alive because he has something to contribute to the story - full stop. That's not my interpretation either, that's literally how it's presented. The Lord of Light needed him to do something, so he's back. He can't die because he's essential to the plot. That's the same trope that book fans have been going after every superhero movie in existence for, written plain as day.

First of all, see above.  You clearly don't understand what plot armor is or what suspension of disbelief is, so I'm not going to explain it to you again.

As for the bold, that's not how it's explained.  He's brought back by Thoros.  He died a whole lot of times.  When the characters say "He won't let me die," it's more like people in the US saying "God has a plan."  He can die, and did.  In the books, at least, there's even a lot of implication that the Lord of Light doesn't exist.

That's not plot armor because we are presented with a world where there is magic, and that magic allows Thoros of Myr to raise the dead.  That in no way strains believably.  Having a character like Sam get piled on by wights that are stabbing at him, but survive, does, and is an example of plot armor.

If you truly can't see the difference there by now, I don't know what to tell you.

[Calvert28]

4 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

The same thing happens in the books. He's still brought back to revive Cat into Lady Stoneheart, and the rationale presented for why he is revived is largely the same. LIS, you can argue that openly admitting it's plot armor and keeping it on a character who is more peripheral is better than going into a superhero movie knowing that the hero will live because it's less impactful and opens up more opportunities for other parts of the story to have suspense, but it is plot armor.

Not exactly. In the books he doesn't really have any plot armor because as I said he has no real purpose right now. He went from Lawful neutral in earlier books to being chaotic evil it seems because of what he's been doing. Even GGendry is shown to be vengeful, he went from being just a boy when he was at the Bells with Arya to Brienne describing him in a very dark way. In fact thats how she describes all of them. With Beric and Lady Stoneheart being the most extreme versions of all of them. I bring this up again, keep in mind they touched on how afraid Thoros of Myr was of all of them. The same Thoros who charged the Battlements of Pike without any fear.

[Heimdallr]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

That's not plot armor because we are presented with a world where there is magic, and that magic allows Thoros of Myr to raise the dead.  That in no way strains believably.  Having a character like Sam get piled on by wights that are stabbing at him, but survive, does, and is an example of plot armor.

This is correct.

[ramssuperbowl99]

3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

No it doesn't man.  That is an element of the story, and as I've tried to explain to you, that works within the rules of the story.  Again, the genre of the story doesn't change how suspended your disbelief is supposed to be.

First of all, see above.  You clearly don't understand what plot armor is or what suspension of disbelief is, so I'm not going to explain it to you again.

As for the bold, that's not how it's explained.  He's brought back by Thoros.  He died a whole lot of times.  When the characters say "He won't let me die," it's more like people in the US saying "God has a plan."  He can die, and did.  In the books, at least, there's even a lot of implication that the Lord of Light doesn't exist.

That's not plot armor because we are presented with a world where there is magic, and that magic allows Thoros of Myr to raise the dead.  That in no way strains believably.  Having a character like Sam get piled on by wights that are stabbing at him, but survive, does, and is an example of plot armor.

If you truly can't see the difference there by now, I don't know what to tell you.

And why won't he let Beric die?

[Calvert28]

16 minutes ago, LeeEvans said:

Yeah I just watched it right now. I stand by all my initial comments. 

Their comments were "we thought she was the best candidate because no one was thinking about her in that moment". And they the go on to explain that having so many characters in the battle let them pull people's attention elsewhere. 

The comments about Jon not being the one to be the one because it "didnt feel right" are baffling. His entire storyline has led to this, why would you choose someone who has no involvement with the army of the dead? 

The only redemption I think the show runners can do right now is to fool all of us with Arya. Like yea she killed the NK but it was not supposed to be her that did it. So over the course of the next 2 episodes it shows her to start being corrupted by the same Darkness that made the Night King that she has in her now and in the end it whinds up having to be Jon or Dany that has to kill her. That's what I'm hoping happens to give it legit closure on the entire arc, she kills Cersei like she's wanted to do all along but during or afterwards she whinds up becoming the Night's Queen and that's when we see the Iron Throne get frosted over like we saw in the previews before the seasons.

They want the shock value. That would shock the hell out of everyone.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Calvert28