DreamKid Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 22 minutes ago, Danand said: To me, runningbacks should only be picked high if everything else is in place – I don’t think that is the case with us, although I can see your point. A player like Saquon Barkley made the team better – but again, so did a Philip Lindsay – and in general, we see every year undrafted players and late round players perform to a level close to high drafted players. I tried to look at the situation from another perspective, because I'm definitely in line with your thinking. Basically playing Devil's Advocate. I just can never get on board though. Especially because as you said, and anyone fairly evaluating the team would say, we don't have everything in place. And we don't have the Patriots coaching to compensate for the insufficient talent. What I always come back to is, how much production/impact can Josh Jacobs(Or any HB) give us and is it enough to bridge the value gap between a 1st and Later Round pick. And the answer is almost always no. Look at Saquon Barkely(2nd Overall Pick)- Season Team Rushing Receiving Fumbles G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost 2018 New York Giants 16 16 261 1,307 5.0 78T 11 91 721 7.9 57T 4 -- -- And then look at Phillip Lindsay(UDFA)- Season Team Rushing Receiving Fumbles G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost 2018 Denver Broncos 15 8 192 1,037 5.4 65T 9 35 241 6.9 29T 1 -- -- You're talking about a 2,595 point value difference between the 2nd overall pick and the first pick of the 7th Round. And the difference in impact/production between Lindsay and Barkley doesn't begin to bridge that gap. It's not possible for any runner to bridge that gap. They'd have to take like 30% of their carries to the house lol. Say we had the best back in the league on our team last year, whoever you think that is. Does anyone think that would've been the difference in getting us a ring? My guess is no. That's why all the Jacobs talk makes me uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Hard pass on Jacobs. I’d much rather take Ryquell Armstead. Possesses a similar athletic profile and ability to Jacobs, only possessed of much more proven durability and proven production. Especially considering that our URFA runner was what 2nd in the league in rushing yards since Jackson took over? Now are there better backs than him, sure, but should we spend a 1st round on said player? Nope. Ryquell Armstead could likely be had in the 4th/5th rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamKid Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 Phil Haynes LG #74. Looks like a solid Mid-Later Round Option. Overaged a bit, but tested well athletically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danand Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 1 minute ago, diamondbull424 said: Hard pass on Jacobs. I’d much rather take Ryquell Armstead. Possesses a similar athletic profile and ability to Jacobs, only possessed of much more proven durability and proven production. Especially considering that our URFA runner was what 2nd in the league in rushing yards since Jackson took over? Now are there better backs than him, sure, but should we spend a 1st round on said player? Nope. Ryquell Armstead could likely be had in the 4th/5th rounds. From my point of view, you invest in your quarterback by investing in your oline. The Colts finally provided a great oline for Luck and maximized the rest of that offense. That should be our approach, especially as we already proven we can make the running game work with what we got, that Jackson can convert short downs and we have young talent at tight end and just need complimentary pieces at WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamKid Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 OL & DL effect both the run and pass in the quickest and purest way. That effect can manifest in a positive or negative way depending on the talent you have there. With Lamar firmly in development, and LG & C clearly weak spots for us. I don't know why we wouldn't address it? It's playing with fire. - Sign Matt Paradis - Draft Jeffrey Simmons in the 1st - Let Hurst, Skura, Lewis, Bozeman and a Mid-Round Rookie battle it out for LG. That puts us in conversation for the top OL & DL in the league. And helps brace us for the coming loss of Yanda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 2 hours ago, DreamKid said: I tried to look at the situation from another perspective, because I'm definitely in line with your thinking. Basically playing Devil's Advocate. I just can never get on board though. Especially because as you said, and anyone fairly evaluating the team would say, we don't have everything in place. And we don't have the Patriots coaching to compensate for the insufficient talent. What I always come back to is, how much production/impact can Josh Jacobs(Or any HB) give us and is it enough to bridge the value gap between a 1st and Later Round pick. And the answer is almost always no. Look at Saquon Barkely(2nd Overall Pick)- Season Team Rushing Receiving Fumbles G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost 2018 New York Giants 16 16 261 1,307 5.0 78T 11 91 721 7.9 57T 4 -- -- And then look at Phillip Lindsay(UDFA)- Season Team Rushing Receiving Fumbles G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost 2018 Denver Broncos 15 8 192 1,037 5.4 65T 9 35 241 6.9 29T 1 -- -- You're talking about a 2,595 point value difference between the 2nd overall pick and the first pick of the 7th Round. And the difference in impact/production between Lindsay and Barkley doesn't begin to bridge that gap. It's not possible for any runner to bridge that gap. They'd have to take like 30% of their carries to the house lol. Say we had the best back in the league on our team last year, whoever you think that is. Does anyone think that would've been the difference in getting us a ring? My guess is no. That's why all the Jacobs talk makes me uncomfortable. Lindsay's production was in a Gary Kubiak offense though, I remember Justin Forsett doing quite well in 2014. The Giants had a bad offensive line and immobile QB and Barkley was still able to dominate. If they swapped teams, Lindsay wouldn't crack 600 yards and Barkley would be challenging 2000 rushing yards per season. Also, it is unfair to compare Barkley with one UDFA, you are assuming all UDFAs are as good as Lindsay. You are not acknowledging that most UDFAs RBs won't even make an NFLA roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamKid Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said: Also, it is unfair to compare Barkley with one UDFA, you are assuming all UDFAs are as good as Lindsay. You are not acknowledging that most UDFAs RBs won't even make an NFLA roster. I do think that. I think all UDFA running backs are as good as Phillip Lindsay. You're right, I should have dedicated some time to explaining to everyone that many UDFA running backs don't make NFL rosters. You missed the point of my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 2 hours ago, DreamKid said: I do think that. I don’t think all UDFA running backs are as good as Phillip Lindsay. You're right, I should have dedicated some time to explaining to everyone that many UDFA running backs don't make NFL rosters. You missed the point of my post. Guessing you meant to include this? But other than that edit, I agree. It’s all about commodity buys. You’re much more likely to find an All Pro RB in the mid rounds than an All Pro Interior defensive pass rush threat. If I thought there was a more slam dunk interior OL talent, I would pound the table for that guy in round one as well, but as I see it... most of the centers/OGs I’ve scouted are starter to pro bowl quality (maybe) with no All Pro potential type options. This team needs Jeffery Simmons in the worst way. With rookie Simmons and what we currently have on the roster, it might challenge for the most “talented” defensive unit we’ve ever had. All we’d then need is the veteran leadership to pair it with and it would surely be an unstoppable unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamKid Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said: Guessing you meant to include this? lol I actually meant to have it read as is, because that's what he was accusing me of believing. I thought if I laid it out like that, he'd understand that of course I don't believe it-because it's absurd. Sarcasm can be tough to pull off on forums though . 7 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said: If I thought there was a more slam dunk interior OL talent, I would pound the table for that guy in round one as well, but as I see it... most of the centers/OGs I’ve scouted are starter to pro bowl quality (maybe) with no All Pro potential type options. That's what I've noticed too. OL and DL are both key, but when you have a legit Top 5 talent at DI. Not only in this class, but when combining classes going back a good number of years. It can make prospect talk quite one note. Cody Ford and Chris Lindstrom are fine players, but up against Jeffrey Simmons the discussion simply ends. 13 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said: This team needs Jeffery Simmons in the worst way. With rookie Simmons and what we currently have on the roster, it might challenge for the most “talented” defensive unit we’ve ever had. All we’d then need is the veteran leadership to pair it with and it would surely be an unstoppable unit. It's becoming a tradition. I watch half a cut up on a player early on in the process, and am indifferent or meh on them. Then you mock them to us in the 1st and I go back and watch everything on them- and get dragged in. And just as we had a shot at Derwin James last year, we'll have a shot at Jeffrey Simmons this year. Hopefully the FO pulls the trigger this time though. My High End comp for Zach Sieler with his length, raw strength, power, speed, and ability to get into the backfield is Richard Seymour. Him and Jeffrey Simmons growing together could be our next great duo. On a DL that already has Michael Pierce, so make it trio. 3 Monsters . It has to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamKid Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drd23 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 2 hours ago, DreamKid said: I know this was done almost entirely for the likes and to look like a smart *** but its not exactly a like-for-like comparison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 9 hours ago, DreamKid said: I do think that. I think all UDFA running backs are as good as Phillip Lindsay. You're right, I should have dedicated some time to explaining to everyone that many UDFA running backs don't make NFL rosters. You missed the point of my post. I didn't miss the point, I am critiquing your methodology. If you want to compare production of 1st round RBs to UDFA RBs, you need to look at the average production from each round and see what the difference in value is. If you cherry pick your data points, of course you will reach the conclusion that you are aiming for. Watch. Grabbing a 1st round QB is stupid, because you can get a great one in the 6th round. Tom Brady is much more valuable drafted as a 6th round pick than Peyton Manning is as the first overall pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamKid Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, drd23 said: I know this was done almost entirely for the likes and to look like a smart *** but its not exactly a like-for-like comparison It's been circulating the draft community in various forms. Designed to poke fun at Metcalf because of his poor agility testing. Tom Brady's own poor outing has been weaponized in service to lady comedy. FWIW, the numbers attached to some of them indicate Tom did test better than him in all the agility drills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drd23 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 The different surface and different footwear alone mean that they can't be used as a direct comparison imo None of this is to say that Metcalf's agility times weren't poor, just that trying to compare him and Brady athletically adds nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drd23 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I know a couple of you are big fans of Holyfield, but this particular bit of maths and history isn't on his side. Basically no RB at his size and timed speed at the combine has put up even 700 yards in a season in the 15 years between 1999 & 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.