Who will finish higher of all time? Drew Brees or Peyton Manning?

[sammymvpknight]

26 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Question, do you hold it against Tom Brady for basically playing in one of the worst divisions in football for the last 15 years and having no real threat to even challenge them within their own division starting each season off with 6 wins on the board between Miami, Jets and Bills?

I do...but you simply can’t ignore the silly number of Super Bowls that he has attended and won. He also has the production to prove that he’s an all time great. I have Brady highest amongst the three because of the Super Bowls but the gap is really narrow. 

[AkronsWitness]

14 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

I do...but you simply can’t ignore the silly number of Super Bowls that he has attended and won. He also has the production to prove that he’s an all time great. I have Brady highest amongst the three because of the Super Bowls but the gap is really narrow. 

I could make an argument that if he played in a tougher division that didnt just gift wrap him homefield advantage in the playoffs every year he would have less SB appearances.

Not saying Tom isnt the GOAT, but I feel that his horrific division has helped him immensely in securing all of the 1st round byes and home field advantages against great teams in the playoffs. Swap him with the Steelers in the AFC North for example or the Broncos in the AFC West. Im pretty confident that him having to compete against teams like the Ravens/Bengals or the Chargers/Cheifs every year--things on his resume would probably look a little different based on playoff seeding alone

[sammymvpknight]

20 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

I could make an argument that if he played in a tougher division that didnt just gift wrap him homefield advantage in the playoffs every year he would have less SB appearances.

Not saying Tom isnt the GOAT, but I feel that his horrific division has helped him immensely in securing all of the 1st round byes and home field advantages against great teams in the playoffs. Swap him with the Steelers in the AFC North for example or the Broncos in the AFC West. Im pretty confident that him having to compete against teams like the Ravens/Bengals or the Chargers/Cheifs every year--things on his resume would probably look a little different based on playoff seeding alone

I don’t disagree with you. The Patriots are pretty much locks to win their division on a yearly basis. If you put that team in the NFC South, I think that they are likely the third best team in the division and miss the playoffs. Though I suspect that Brees or Manning could have done pretty similar to Brady in the same situation...that’s all speculation and you have to give Brady for taking advantage of the situation. 

[Jlowe22]

9 hours ago, Uncle Buck said:

I agree with you on how close it is between Manning and Brees.  As far as being salty that Manning won the MVP in '09, that shouldn't be an issue.  Brees won more than he had a right to win that year too. 

[SDotNova]

Brees for a good part of his early career was viewed as an underdog. Partly because of his height. He also wasn’t a first round pick. Where a player gets drafted shouldn’t matter but it does. They have more name recognition in these comparisons. Manning never had any doubters. While this shouldn’t matter, it does play a role in how people perceived each player early in their careers. 

I still went with Manning by a hair. For me it was the 4th quarter comebacks. I don’t have any data to prove it, but it seem like Manning would always march his team downfield of giving the time.

[Soko]

4 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

I could make an argument that if he played in a tougher division that didnt just gift wrap him homefield advantage in the playoffs every year he would have less SB appearances.

Not saying Tom isnt the GOAT, but I feel that his horrific division has helped him immensely in securing all of the 1st round byes and home field advantages against great teams in the playoffs. Swap him with the Steelers in the AFC North for example or the Broncos in the AFC West. Im pretty confident that him having to compete against teams like the Ravens/Bengals or the Chargers/Cheifs every year--things on his resume would probably look a little different based on playoff seeding alone

You’d lose that debate. 

Win percentage against non-division opponents, Brady era sans 2017.

AFC East sans Pats: .473

AFC West: .500 (.466 sans Broncos).

AFC South: .486 (.442 sans Colts). 

AFC North: .510 (.476 sans Steelers).

NFC East: .525 (.510 sans Eagles). 

NFC West: .440 (.404 sans Seahawks).

NFC North: .480 (.446 sans Packers).

NFC South: .511 (.494 sans Falcons). 

Patriots win % against division: .776

Patriots win % outside division: .759 (the following three percentages were AFC teams - Steelers, Colts, Broncos). 

Patriots win % against teams that finished 9-7 or better: .610 (that percentage is higher than any percentage of any team in the NFC overall except for Green Bay). The only other team with a winning record vs 9-7 or better opponents is Pittsburgh. 

Patriots win % against teams that finished in the playoffs: .622 (no other team even had a winning record). 

2002: Jets playoff appearance (Dolphins miss at 9-7).

2003: Dolphins miss playoffs at 10-6.

2004: Jets playoff appearance.

2005: Dolphins miss playoffs at 9-7.

2006: Jets playoff appearance.

2007: All teams obliterated.

2008: Dolphins playoff appearance.

2009: Jets playoff appearance. 

2010: Jets playoff appearance.

2011: Jets miss playoffs at 8-8.

2012: All teams with losing records.

2013: Jets/Dolphins miss playoffs at 8-8.

2014: Bills miss playoffs at 9-7.

2015: Jets miss playoffs at 10-6.

2016: Dolphins playoff appearance.

2017: Bills playoff appearance.

The idea that NE benefits so much from a weak division/conference is false.

Anyway, don’t want to get too far off topic. Manning higher all-time.

[AkronsWitness]

3 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

You’d lose that debate. 

 

 

So you honestly believe in your heart that the Patriots playing the Bills/Dolphins/Jets for the past 15 years makes no difference if the Pats were to swap places with the Steelers or Broncos in their divisions in the AFC? Especially considering teams like the Chargers/Cheifs/Bengals/Ravens earn their own playoff record pushing seeding around? 

There is also a difference in playing a team once every other year and playing those teams twice a season every year for 15 years. 

 

[Soko]

23 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

So you honestly believe in your heart that the Patriots playing the Bills/Dolphins/Jets for the past 15 years makes no difference if the Pats were to swap places with the Steelers or Broncos in their divisions in the AFC? Especially considering teams like the Chargers/Cheifs/Bengals/Ravens earn their own playoff record pushing seeding around? 

There is also a difference in playing a team once every other year and playing those teams twice a season every year for 15 years. 

 

I believe the numbers in this case speak for themselves.

NE (Brady era) has a winning percentage that is barely worse (76% vs 78%) against teams outside the division. They win over 60% of their games against teams that finish over .500 and over 60% of their games against teams that finish in the playoffs.

The AFC East has fielded at least one team with a winning record (other than NE) in 12/16 seasons. And a playoff team (other than NE) in 8/16. Taking away each team’s best performer, the AFC East stacks up rather similarly to most other divisions in W/L. 

So yeah, you can disagree and say the AFC East is constantly gift wrapped or that NE wouldn’t be nearly as successful in another division - but facts say otherwise. 

——

My OT post got cut off above - I think Peyton>Brees, all time.

[Hunter2_1]

16 hours ago, sammymvpknight said:

I don’t disagree with you. The Patriots are pretty much locks to win their division on a yearly basis. If you put that team in the NFC South, I think that they are likely the third best team in the division and miss the playoffs. 

Look, Khaleesi, under the Belichick/Brady era, we've an identical record vs AFCE opponents compared to the rest of the league. We haven't lost to Atlanta since 1998 (), have one loss vs NO in 10 years. We do struggle vs Carolina in recent years, to be fair. 

Unless you meant another team entirely, in which case, ignore. 

[Hunter2_1]

9 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

So you honestly believe in your heart that the Patriots playing the Bills/Dolphins/Jets for the past 15 years makes no difference if the Pats were to swap places with the Steelers or Broncos in their divisions in the AFC? Especially considering teams like the Chargers/Cheifs/Bengals/Ravens earn their own playoff record pushing seeding around? 

There is also a difference in playing a team once every other year and playing those teams twice a season every year for 15 years. 

 

If we played Pittsburgh twice every year, we'd have an even better record than we do now! Maybe the whole "division rivalry voodoo" thing comes into play, but we have a very similar record vs those teams compared with the rest of the league. Our toughest game every year is Miami away. There's not many teams we traditionally struggle with, tbh. Miami away is the one you can usually circle. 

 

As for the debate, I think I voted Manning but I actually would take Brees, thinking about it. I thought Manning was a real let-down come playoff time more often than not.

[sammymvpknight]

4 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Look, Khaleesi, under the Belichick/Brady era, we've an identical record vs AFCE opponents compared to the rest of the league. We haven't lost to Atlanta since 1998 (), have one loss vs NO in 10 years. We do struggle vs Carolina in recent years, to be fair. 

Unless you meant another team entirely, in which case, ignore. 

I think you’re missing the concept of the grind and momentum. This year, I’m pretty confident that the Patriots are the third most talented team. I credit the Oatriots for making the most of their situation but there is no way they have as easy of a path in literally any other division over the past 15 years. 

[Hunter2_1]

1 minute ago, sammymvpknight said:

I think you’re missing the concept of the grind and momentum. This year, I’m pretty confident that the Patriots are the third most talented team. I credit the Oatriots for making the most of their situation but there is no way they have as easy of a path in literally any other division over the past 15 years. 

We aren't a talented team, no. There's plenty of years where we've been a talent vacuum. It's the coaching though. Pick a division, and I believe the coaching plus Brady sees us into the playoffs the same rate. Teams tend not to beat the Pats twice in a season - BB usually learns and adjusts. Chiefs ruined us in 2014, but we had the measure of them come playoffs, for example

[Soko]

10 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

...but there is no way they have as easy of a path in literally any other division over the past 15 years. 

The AFC East’s record excluding NE is better than all but three other division’s record excluding their best team, throughout the Brady era - the NFC South, NFC East, and AFC North.

It’s not a grinder, but it’s far from the worst according to actual numbers.

[sammymvpknight]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

The AFC East’s record excluding NE is better than all but three other division’s record excluding their best team, throughout the Brady era - the NFC South, NFC East, and AFC North.

It’s not a grinder, but it’s far from the worst according to actual numbers.

But the AFC EAST teams also get to play lots of AFC East teams. Come on. The division has been awful. 

[Asciimo]

On 10/13/2018 at 3:38 PM, AkronsWitness said:

Question, do you hold it against Tom Brady for basically playing in one of the worst divisions in football for the last 15 years and having no real threat to even challenge them within their own division starting each season off with 6 wins on the board between Miami, Jets and Bills?

That's not remotely accurate. @Miami has consistently been a loss for NE. Jets have also taken off a game here and there throughout the years. Bills, yeah, they've been dominated. I'll argue that the AFC East has given Brady more trouble than the AFC South ever did Manning.