(Polls) Why Is Todd Haley Struggling As Our OC?

[Mind Character]

An interesting conversation(s) with @LETSGOBROWNIES over the millennia made me wonder how people see things with Haley regarding the main deciding reasons for his OC struggles.

So, I added two quick dichotomous polls to this thread.

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The conversation:

1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

How much of Haley’s success in Pitt was the talent though?

That is the million dollar question...

And more... how does one separate offensive play-calling genius or elite ability in an OC from the talent of the team.

 

1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

It’s like crediting Peyton’s OC’s with being offensive geniuses and the like.

Facts.

It goes the other way interestingly enough as well.

Before this year many wondered (including myself), is Baker Mayfield's production and excellence because he is special and great or due to Lincoln Riley's offense and Oklahoma's poor defensive opponents?

This brings up another difficulty in football evaluation.. that is, separating the player from the scheme/talent around them/opponents.

In the case of Joe Flacco or Carson Wentz, the issue was how does one separate the ability from the level of competition.

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The questions of how to separate the OCs coordinating ability from the talent of elite players (e.g.,Peyton Manning)... and how to separate a player's ability from the scheme and play-calling are the type of questions that NFL decision-makers still struggle with figuring out.

There are some reliable ways of trying to do so, but many of such attempts to do result in confusion or improper evaluation.

 

 

[NudeTayne]

What about when Todd Haley want in Pittsburgh. I fully believe that Pittsburgh offense is fine without him just like it's fine without Bell. Unfortunately, knowing Pittsburgh is fine without either doesn't really tell us anything about how good Haley and Bell are. 

I lean toward it being that the receivers/o-line are terribad and thus are making it seem like Haley is worse than he is. That said, I am not encouraged by much with the offense/lack of chipping/helping the teachers/more two TE jumbo sets etc. and have a hard time seeing Haley working out here long term. It seemed like Pittsburgh was happy to see him go fwiw and did not miss a beat without him.

[MistaBohmbastic]

It's difficult to weigh which factors are more important than others here. They all play a role. I will say that I find Haley's offense to be, for the most part, predictable. Part of it is the fact that there aren't enough reliable weapons, and the poor O-line performance demands quick-developing plays.

Ultimately, the offense is Haley's responsibility, and therefore, he's going to take the majority of the blame.

This article touches on the importance of a good OC, but it focusses primarily on the QB development. Scores based on a 1-5 scale with 5 being excellent. Here's his take on Baker's situation:

https://thedraftnetwork.com/2018/10/25/the-trials-and-tribulations-of-young-quarterbacks/

Quote

Baker Mayfield, Cleveland Browns

Offensive coaching/scheme – 3

You could probably make an argument for giving the Browns a ‘2’ in this category, but I think there have been enough bright moments to say the scheme has been average. Todd Haley’s offense has definitely looked a bit different than his days in Pittsburgh, and if Hue Jackson takes more control, you can bet this thing will head to the cellar fast.

Offensive line/pass protection – 3

Mayfield has held the ball a little long at times this season, but the further the 2018 campaign has progressed, the worse the protection concerns have been. Both tackles are struggling mightily the past few weeks, and even the interior o-line that should be a strength has been up-and-down. Given the money spent on this offensive line, a lot more should be expected the second half of the season.

Head coach/culture – 1

Worst culture and worst head coach in the NFL. Hopefully John Dorsey can help change that, but right now it’s a train wreck.

Receivers/weapons – 2

Jarvis Landry is a high-end no. 2 being asked to do everything for Cleveland to be successful in the passing game. Antonio Callaway has been atrocious, while David Njoku hasn’t made the big second-year leap yet. Duke Johnson could help, but we all know he won’t get the ball more under Hue.

Defense – 3

The talent level on the Browns defense is good enough to be considered better than this, but the actual performance and the schematic disadvantage they are often put in thanks to Gregg Williams is debilitating. Leading the league in takeaways helps keep them at a ‘3’.

Summary (12/25)

The Browns have a few pieces on the field that will help an already pro-ready Mayfield make a smoother transition to the NFL, but the coaching situation is so bad that I don’t believe much will change in Cleveland this season.

It's interesting that he mentions how Haley's offense looks different in Cleveland than it was in Pittsburgh. This author, Jon Ledyard, is a Steelers fan, so you can rest assured he has an understanding of the Pittsburgh offense.

[NudeTayne]

 

And maybe add a little more nuance to those questions(?). They're a bit binary and hard to agree with in other end, especially the second question is (I don't think Haley was ever touted as an offensive genius and he seems just okay--not really underrated or overrated).

My guess is the new coach cleans house and things are overall better because of it. We can do worse, but we can also do a lot better. The offense like terrible.

[Kiwibrown]

1. Ego. We have three coaches that believe in there system or style of play more than...

2. tailoring an offense to suit their players. Duke is the key example, he is a top 5 receiving back in the nfl. we hardly use him at all as a receiver, out of the back feild or lined up out wide. I can think of 3 exceptional routes or catches by Duke as a WR, 1 was streak vs a LB, one a a corner early last year, where he caught the ball 1 handed away from his body, the other was a sick slant route for a 1st down. Use Duke more in a variety of ways you dumb head. 

3. Devalve is a decent TE, we have hardly used him. We din't use Chubb enough as a runnder and Dorsey had to get rid of Hyde to play Chubb, 

4. the whole world knows our Tackles suck, he doesn't A. help them with TE or chip from the RB, or B. shift the pocket with roll out passes.

5. dumb play calls, TE screens, or today, call a play action pass on our goaline whn our tackle is struggling, it should of been a quick hitter to someone. 

Bellichick has employed multiple offense in the last decade. Power run withCorey Dillon, Air raid with Randy Moss, h-back an great TE play from McMurder and Gronk. Uses cheap and easy to find white receivers that play against leverage in the slot for quick hitters. With both Hue an Hayley we have seen an offense that is 5-10 years behind the curve. 

Look at what Hayley had in Pitt, a HOf QB, a historic connection with Antonio Brown, a prow bowlRB with Bell. He either got lazy with success or requires HO talent to be good at what he does. 

[Kiwibrown]

Jay Gruden turned his offense into a power run offense with Peterson, adapting to his situation. Hayley can't adapt to his best RB. 

[brownie man]

56 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

Jay Gruden turned his offense into a power run offense with Peterson, adapting to his situation. Hayley can't adapt to his best RB. 

Exactly and Haley I think a too set in his ways 

I think too much success in Pittsburgh has hurt him.  He’s not genuinely innovative or creative.

[Kiwibrown]

My defense Of hayley would be that I dont think the offensive line is playing well. Some of that is on big bob. 

[Kiwibrown]

Jimmy and john troll this thread.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Can’t help but think there’s more to Haley getting canned than the performance of the offense.

Seemed to undermine Hue at times and didn’t get along well with Ben in Pittsburgh either.

[Kiwibrown]

7 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Can’t help but think there’s more to Haley getting canned than the performance of the offense.

Seemed to undermine Hue at times and didn’t get along well with Ben in Pittsburgh either.

heard he is an alcoholic, maybe that is catching up to the neurons, burning them away. 

[brownie man]

14 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Can’t help but think there’s more to Haley getting canned than the performance of the offense.

Seemed to undermine Hue at times and didn’t get along well with Ben in Pittsburgh either.

Yeah the way he started Gordon week 1 I knew something was seriously wrong 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

7 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

heard he is an alcoholic,

You say that like it’s a bad thing...

 

[Kiwibrown]

6 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

You say that like it’s a bad thing...

 

Only for your brain and liver, gi tract,and decision making. 

[Kiwibrown]

8 minutes ago, brownie man said:

Yeah the way he started Gordon week 1 I knew something was seriously wrong 

Yeah that was too douchey of a move for me. 

Tomlin is tougher man than I thought, keeping this ape under control.