Keys to Gruden Success?

[big_palooka]

13 hours ago, SimonGruber said:

The other thing in Gruden’s favor is having cap space as opposed to 12 and 13. 

He had cap space this offseason. Signed a bunch of has beens or never was FA instead of giving money to an all-pro pass rusher. 

[big_palooka]

11 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

How many years have we been asking for reg to draft inside help for Mack or a rt for Carr or a good quality mlb. 

Isn't this the truth.... 

[Darbsk]

16 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Again I thought like you back then but I think bp was the first one to call that 12-4 season a fluke and he was right. Sd, kc and den all got better while we stayed the same or got worse.

I’m not a cap guy but I don’t think we could afford everybody plus Mack’s contract also with cooper looking to re-up. After Carr got his $ the writing was on the wall imo. Nobody wanted to lose a player and get nothing like aso. 

Yea we’re hot garbage right now but let’s not forget just a year ago with Mack coop Carr the whole oline etc etc and we still had pick #10. 

Reg is the reason we’re in this mess and I called it. No player is gonna waste their prime waiting for us to get our crap together nor give us a hometown discount to continue to allow us to waste their time. 

How many years have we been asking for reg to draft inside help for Mack or a rt for Carr or a good quality mlb. 

Basically we played ourselves got cute in the draft and drafted bust after bust fa wasn’t any better we went dumpster diving . Now we have to fix it.

 

I can respect that opinion NCough, I don't entirely agree but at least you can rationalise your points. I thought we were capable of challenging and were a team closer to 2016 than 2017 due to coaching - particularly OC and DC, I also thought we could work the cap (Reggie's strongest trait) to get whatever guys we wanted as Al always use to but without making a ball and chain for ourselves in future years.

We are where we are right now so I guess it's just all about looking forward and turning this thing around. It's going to be a hell of an off season - just a shame that's what we're looking forward to with 8 regular season games still to go! 

[NCOUGHMAN]

1 hour ago, Darbsk said:

I can respect that opinion NCough, I don't entirely agree but at least you can rationalise your points. I thought we were capable of challenging and were a team closer to 2016 than 2017 due to coaching - particularly OC and DC, I also thought we could work the cap (Reggie's strongest trait) to get whatever guys we wanted as Al always use to but without making a ball and chain for ourselves in future years.

We are where we are right now so I guess it's just all about looking forward and turning this thing around. It's going to be a hell of an off season - just a shame that's what we're looking forward to with 8 regular season games still to go! 

Trust me man this sucks wait all year for football and we get crap burgers. Feels like a waste of a year in my life that I won’t get back. Comes down to would I rather us be in cap hell with pick #10 or cap free with pick 1, 10ish, 22ish. 

I’d rather blow it up. Mack is a stud but imo we got his best years I think after 2 years he’ll slow down. Cooper was borderline good but for some reason never  really seemed to want to be here. 

Remember reg had a hard time retaining talent and I don’t know who’s idea it was to replace our playoff oc. 

As fans it’s nothing we can do. I admit I’m blindly loyal to the brand not players or coaches. 

It’s not easy being a raider fan man but hopefully it will get better 

[true2form]

10 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Not really. I personally pegged this as a 6-7 win team coming in, so my expectations were low. The roster had too many holes. As far as a rebuild or the now current rebuild, I don't think you have the right people in the organization for it. Gruden doesn't know how to build a roster and that becomes more evident as time is going by.

I'd compare more to the Browns. Horrible ownership, horrible leadership. A lot of draft picks, but unlike the Browns, no quality FO people making decisions. 

As bad as things have been this year, we are no where near the Browns.  The only way I'd compare us to the Browns is if we drafted a terrible QB every 4 years for 20 years and they all busted. Which is why I'm so against trading Carr and drafting someone to put on this shell of a roster.

The Browns have finally put some pieces together on their roster.  However, they're still not good. I don't want that for us. 

[big_palooka]

26 minutes ago, true2form said:

As bad as things have been this year, we are no where near the Browns.  The only way I'd compare us to the Browns is if we drafted a terrible QB every 4 years for 20 years and they all busted. Which is why I'm so against trading Carr and drafting someone to put on this shell of a roster.

The Browns have finally put some pieces together on their roster.  However, they're still not good. I don't want that for us. 

Browns and Raiders have the worst ownership. They are both the laughingstocks of the NFL for the last decade. They've both mismanaged their draft selections for decades (Browns have at least his on a few picks) Just because theirs were QBs, doesn't factor in to me. A bust is a bust.

At least the Browns tried to find a QB. Raiders have been marching nobody's, has beens and worse out there for a decade. 

Currently.....like the Browns, the Raiders have compiled a lot of picks. Unlike the Browns, the guy making them isn't a well respected FO executive.

[Silver&Black88]

6 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Browns and Raiders have the worst ownership. They are both the laughingstocks of the NFL for the last decade. They've both mismanaged their draft selections for decades (Browns have at least his on a few picks) Just because theirs were QBs, doesn't factor in to me. A bust is a bust.

At least the Browns tried to find a QB. Raiders have been marching nobody's, has beens and worse out there for a decade. 

Currently.....like the Browns, the Raiders have compiled a lot of picks. Unlike the Browns, the guy making them isn't a well respected FO executive.

[riceman80]

We're so much worse than the Browns.

[true2form]

20 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Browns and Raiders have the worst ownership. They are both the laughingstocks of the NFL for the last decade. They've both mismanaged their draft selections for decades (Browns have at least his on a few picks) Just because theirs were QBs, doesn't factor in to me. A bust is a bust.

At least the Browns tried to find a QB. Raiders have been marching nobody's, has beens and worse out there for a decade. 

Currently.....like the Browns, the Raiders have compiled a lot of picks. Unlike the Browns, the guy making them isn't a well respected FO executive.

Sorry, but you're just a prisoner of the moment.

Browns 1st round draft picks last 10 years. There's some pretty good picks and some flat out busts. 5 out of the last 10 years they've had multiple firsts.  They traded down and didn't take the impact players that they could have. Out of 16 picks I'd say 4 are/were solid Pro Bowl type players, for comparison we are/were 2 of 8.   We have to hope that we can have a similar draft haul in the next two years as they have had the last two years.

As for the QB position, we have had the same one for 5 years so you must be talking pre-Carr. They've drafted two 1st rounders in that time.

I'll agree with you on ownership, it's been awful for decades. Reggie doesn't have a great draft record, but I still stand by the thought that he's never been the one making the picks(maybe that's the problem?).  He drafts what his coaches want. Proof is in the pudding on that one. As for Gruden, he will be making the picks going forward because of what I just said.  Question becomes, do you think Gruden is a better evaluator than Del Rio or Allen?

As for Dorsey, he did ok with the Chiefs and off to a decent start with the Browns, but it's just one draft. 

2018: Mayfield and Ward (Miller)

2017: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku (Conley)

2016: Corey Coleman (Joseph)

2015: Danny Shelton and Cam Erving (Cooper)

2014: Justin Gilbert and Manziel (Mack)

2013: Barkevious Mingo (Hayden)

2012: Trent Richardson and Brandon Wheeden (No pick)

2011: Phil Taylor (No pick)

2010: Joe Haden (McClain)

2009: Alex Mack (DHB)

 

[808sinfour4time]

After reading the excellent Jenny Vrentas SI article on Andy Reid, I'd have to say that the keys to Gruden's success are thus: (1) an uncomfortable admission that the offensive game has evolved far more than he originally thought at the time of his January hiring, and (2) a complete overhaul of both his approach to coaching and overall coaching philosophy.

[Darbsk]

17 hours ago, true2form said:

Sorry, but you're just a prisoner of the moment.

Browns 1st round draft picks last 10 years. There's some pretty good picks and some flat out busts. 5 out of the last 10 years they've had multiple firsts.  They traded down and didn't take the impact players that they could have. Out of 16 picks I'd say 4 are/were solid Pro Bowl type players, for comparison we are/were 2 of 8.   We have to hope that we can have a similar draft haul in the next two years as they have had the last two years.

As for the QB position, we have had the same one for 5 years so you must be talking pre-Carr. They've drafted two 1st rounders in that time.

I'll agree with you on ownership, it's been awful for decades. Reggie doesn't have a great draft record, but I still stand by the thought that he's never been the one making the picks(maybe that's the problem?).  He drafts what his coaches want. Proof is in the pudding on that one. As for Gruden, he will be making the picks going forward because of what I just said.  Question becomes, do you think Gruden is a better evaluator than Del Rio or Allen?

As for Dorsey, he did ok with the Chiefs and off to a decent start with the Browns, but it's just one draft. 

2018: Mayfield and Ward (Miller)

2017: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku (Conley)

2016: Corey Coleman (Joseph)

2015: Danny Shelton and Cam Erving (Cooper)

2014: Justin Gilbert and Manziel (Mack)

2013: Barkevious Mingo (Hayden)

2012: Trent Richardson and Brandon Wheeden (No pick)

2011: Phil Taylor (No pick)

2010: Joe Haden (McClain)

2009: Alex Mack (DHB)

 

Interesting to see the draft picks side by side like this. I feel like we actually have a few young pieces that may have something to offer but i guess it just boils down to how much we trust Gruden and Co. to be able to develop them. As for your question above I have seen no evidence to suggest that Gruden is a markedly better talent evaluator than McKenzie or Del Rio (both now and in his previous coaching life). I'm probably the exception to the rule in that I'd still want McKenzie taking control of the draft and I fear Mckenzie getting tossed to the kerbside and Gruden taking full, unchecked control with no voice of reason to hold him back.

[NJ Raider]

6 hours ago, 808sinfour4time said:

After reading the excellent Jenny Vrentas SI article on Andy Reid, I'd have to say that the keys to Gruden's success are thus: (1) an uncomfortable admission that the offensive game has evolved far more than he originally thought at the time of his January hiring, and (2) a complete overhaul of both his approach to coaching and overall coaching philosophy.

There was a time when eagles fans had it with Andy Reid and couldn’t wait for him to go. Seems like Andy modernized his approach a bit. 

Gruden brought in Olson since he had some insight into what the rams do. Problem is that Olson wasn’t the braintrust there. Coupled with the fact that we have very little in terms or talent and our offensive line and qb struggles. We also brought in Bennett bc of the scramble drills in Green Bay but Carr doesn’t run much. I’m not sure if players are having a hard time picking up the offense or if our line struggles have led to more vanilla playcalling, but it seems like play design and schemes are not as innovative as they were earlier in the year. Not having cooper and lynch makes a big difference as well. 

[Darbsk]

2 hours ago, NJ Raider said:

There was a time when eagles fans had it with Andy Reid and couldn’t wait for him to go. Seems like Andy modernized his approach a bit. 

Gruden brought in Olson since he had some insight into what the rams do. Problem is that Olson wasn’t the braintrust there. Coupled with the fact that we have very little in terms or talent and our offensive line and qb struggles. We also brought in Bennett bc of the scramble drills in Green Bay but Carr doesn’t run much. I’m not sure if players are having a hard time picking up the offense or if our line struggles have led to more vanilla playcalling, but it seems like play design and schemes are not as innovative as they were earlier in the year. Not having cooper and lynch makes a big difference as well. 

 

You make some good points, however, the irony I see is this current coaching staff created the OL struggles by playing excellent PBS linemen in an unsuitable system with a highly questionable coach, they also moved our solid LT to RT after having virtually never played there in 13 years whereupon he got injured and ended up started two raw rookies. They also cut our best receiver last year Crabtree, traded our #2 Cooper who has obvious talent albeit not consistent yet, they also traded a big play guy in Patterson, potential return and slot receiver in Switzer and added only Nelson as a viable option. We can say we lack talent and the OL is poor but the coaching staff has been the architect of this situation. We looked like world beaters with a competent OC in 2016 and now it's come to this. 

[NJ Raider]

To be fair, we started to implement zone schemes with the previous regime to accommodate lynch. I honestly think that cable was brought in to help lynch out. 

You have to wonder what this team would look like if we kept Murray and PBS. I also feel like he was an important part of the locker room. Seems like he is well liked by his teammates. Think we bring him back next year? Haha

[Silver&Black88]

2 hours ago, NJ Raider said:

To be fair, we started to implement zone schemes with the previous regime to accommodate lynch. I honestly think that cable was brought in to help lynch out. 

You have to wonder what this team would look like if we kept Murray and PBS. I also feel like he was an important part of the locker room. Seems like he is well liked by his teammates. Think we bring him back next year? Haha

This. The ZBS killed us.