Random Raider Stuff

[Frankie2Gunz]

14 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

You nailed it.  Williams could stay if he plays like a low level WR1, high level WR2 this year.  Only time will tell.  Even if he does he’ll still have a promising young and cheap Bryan Edwards ready to take his place and potential cheaper or better (2 very different scenarios) Free Agents who could be signed, causing his release.  Allen Robinson, JuJu Smith-Schuster, Keenan Allen, Kenny Golliday would all be upgrades who even if they command 14-17M, that isnt a huge amount more than Williams’ 11M.  I think the ‘21 free agent class might see a market that isn’t willing as fruitful as years past, if Covid keeps the cap the same or less.  If Edwards shows promise then maybe we sign a lesser but still starting level WR for less money, such as Corey Davis, Curtis Samuel, TY Hilton (a bit older but could produce for a few years and serve as a bridge to Edwards), or we got full speed mode with Will Fuller or Josh Ross.

Im hoping, which is very different than knowing, that Incognito will play in ‘21.

 

Witten is a FA in ‘21 and definitely retires.  I can’t see Joyner even if he plays well, like I think he will, staying for ‘21 due to Robertson.  Bowden will likely replace Richard, although we shouldn’t undervalue him.... he might just play so well we can’t cut him. Gabe’s almost definitely gone due to drafting Simpson.  Unless Incognito retires AND Gabe stays healthy plays up to his best, then he’s gone. Even then he could be gone because of his cap number and no dead cap.

Heath has very little chance of staying... although his cap number does drop from 3.6 to 3.15.  Still that’s likely too much for what he does and unless he takes a pay cut he’s gone.

I have been very vocal about letting Williams walk after this season and all of the guys you mentioned within that price range would be a nice upgrade over TW.  The reason I left Allen off is due to his age, he'll be 29 after this year and his injury history.  KA is a heck of a WR but I would rather pay a but more for the younger guys that we can keep around for 4 years and still preform at a high level.  Any of those guys at 14 to 17 would be a nice upgrade over TW and if I could have my pick it would be Ju-Ju.  

JuJu, Ruggs, Edwards, Renfrow and Aghulor....  That is a pretty formidable WR corp that is extremely young and talented.  

[Humble_Beast]

2 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Offense

QB - Carr (79) | Mariota (68) 

RB - Jacobs (88) | Richard (74) | Bowden (69) 

WR - Williams (82) | Jones (75) | Renfrow (74) 

WR - Ruggs (76) | Agholor (77) | Edwards (70) 

TE - Waller (85) | Witten (77) | Moreau (69) 

LT - Miller (73) 

LG - Incognito (90) 

C - Hudson (93)

RG - Jackson (79)

RT - Brown (87) 

Defense

DE - Crosby (77) | Ferrell (73) 

DT - Hurst (82) 

DT - Hankins (76) | Collins (75) 

DE - Nassib (77) 

OLB - Lee (72) 

MLB - Littleton (78) 

OLB - Kwit (76) 

CB - Amukamara (78) | Arnette (70) 

CB - Mullen (75) 

SLCB - Joyner (82) | Robertson (68) 

SS - Abram (73) 

FS - Randall (82) 

Kinda what I projected. Carr should be in the 80s, MM Atleast in 70s. Kolton should be Atleast a 80, Brown should be 90 as the best RT. Waller should also be late 80s 90 at the very least. Mullen should be upper 70s and they screwed up the LBs. Ferrell only a 73 too. Wow 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Humble_Beast

[jimkelly02]

9 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I don't think that is the reason we signed MM.  In past seasons when Carr has gotten injured our backups have gone out there, embarrassed themselves and we got stomped.  EJ was a complete hack and in 16' when Carr went down right before the playoffs Cook couldn't get out of his own way as we now know he is also a bum and out of football.  As with most teams if their starting Qb goes down their season is over but with MM we still have a chance.

With MM on the roster and having so much starting experience if Carr goes down with an injury we still have a chance to win games.  It also gives Gruden a project.  MM is a 26 year old, top 3 pick, that he can attempt to build back up.  From the little game film I have watched on MM his arm looks below average.  I am not sure if that was bc of an injury but his deep ball was terrible and he had no zip on the ball.

Im all for having a competent backup QB but there were several players who could have been had for under 3.0as opposed to 9.125M.

if Carr went down for 2 games I’d be totally okay with dalton starting.

matiota impressed enough to get you to say “if we can fix”, “if he only ____”, “in a new scheme / different coaching”.

to heck with all this run around QB stuff, qb’s gotta be able to drop back and hit their targets reliably and Mariota can’t do that.  He’ll never be that guy.

”It gives Gruden a project”.... well maybe Gruden should just learn to golf or build ships in a bottle lol cuz we substain on paying Mariota 9.125M and Peterson 2.133M so Gruden can be coddled with his “projects”.  
 

again I don’t hate the moves we made... I’m not trying to be Mr. Negative but we did ignore some better values with Mariota, Heath, etc and now we don’t have the money to sign Clowney, for example.  It’s all about “opportunity cost”: what does this move prevent us from getting in the future.  
 

We also likely (key word is likely) could have negotiated Nassib down a bit.  It sounds like when we signed Trent Brown: we called him up with such a higher contract he couldn’t say no... 4yrs, 66M,,, but would he have taken 60M? Prolly.  Would Nassib have taken 4y, 22M not 25? Prolly.  We just need to negotiate better imo. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

15 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Im all for having a competent backup QB but there were several players who could have been had for under 3.0as opposed to 9.125M.

if Carr went down for 2 games I’d be totally okay with dalton starting.

matiota impressed enough to get you to say “if we can fix”, “if he only ____”, “in a new scheme / different coaching”.

to heck with all this run around QB stuff, qb’s gotta be able to drop back and hit their targets reliably and Mariota can’t do that.  He’ll never be that guy.

”It gives Gruden a project”.... well maybe Gruden should just learn to golf or build ships in a bottle lol cuz we substain on paying Mariota 9.125M and Peterson 2.133M so Gruden can be coddled with his “projects”.  
 

again I don’t hate the moves we made... I’m not trying to be Mr. Negative but we did ignore some better values with Mariota, Heath, etc and now we don’t have the money to sign Clowney, for example.  It’s all about “opportunity cost”: what does this move prevent us from getting in the future.  
 

We also likely (key word is likely) could have negotiated Nassib down a bit.  It sounds like when we signed Trent Brown: we called him up with such a higher contract he couldn’t say no... 4yrs, 66M,,, but would he have taken 60M? Prolly.  Would Nassib have taken 4y, 22M not 25? Prolly.  We just need to negotiate better imo. 

I am basing the "give Gruden a project" off of what I have read.  I have no idea if that is true or not but I will agree with you in that Giving Gruden a reclamation project that adversely affects the salary cap is not smart football.  

I also agree that Mariota is not nor will ever be our guy.  He has clearly shown exactly what you state and that he can not hit his targets reliably and as I pointed out he has a terrible arm.  

It's easy to claim that we have overpaid for players after the FA period has essentially ended.  We have to keep a few things in mind and one of them is that the Raiders are still considered a dumpster fire until they can prove otherwise so terribly ran organizations have to overpay for talent.  If 3 teams put an equal bid on a player that player will go with the organization that has the best chance of winning and the Raiders have been at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to winning for the last 20 years.  I will say that Vegas, the new stadium and Nevada tax break will help us going forward but we still have to win to get quality players at market value.  

I also think in hindsight we overpaid for some of our FA this offseason but Mayock had no idea how the market would play out.  Would it have been worth playing hardball with Nassib and potentially miss out on him if Mayock really like him?  I don't think so.  Now players like Mariota and Witten I feel like we overpaid for them but the QB market is hard to gauge and if Gruden really wanted and likes Mariota (I don't see why ) is letting him linger on the FA market to save 2 million on his salary worth the risk?  I don't think so.  

What does Mariota have over Dalton?  Age, mobility and injury excuses.  The age difference is not debatable but the injury excuse is.  Hopefully Gruden is right and injuries have affected his play over the last few years, he can build him back up and MM plays very well over the next 2 preseasons.  We can then pull a NE and deal him for a high end draft pick to some QB needy team.  That is best case scenario.  

Edited July 19, 2020 by Frankie2Gunz

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I am basing the "give Gruden a project" off of what I have read.  I have no idea if that is true or not but I will agree with you in that Giving Gruden a reclamation project that adversely affects the salary cap is not smart football.  

I also agree that Mariota is not nor will ever be our guy.  He has clearly shown exactly what you state and that he can not hit his targets reliably and as I pointed out he has a terrible arm.  

It's easy to claim that we have overpaid for players after the FA period has essentially ended.  We have to keep a few things in mind and one of them is that the Raiders are still considered a dumpster fire until they can prove otherwise so terribly ran organizations have to overpay for talent.  If 3 teams put an equal bid on a player that player will go with the organization that has the best chance of winning and the Raiders have been at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to winning for the last 20 years.  I will say that Vegas, the new stadium and Nevada tax break will help us going forward but we still have to win to get quality players at market value.  

I also think in hindsight we overpaid for some of our FA this offseason but Mayock had no idea how the market would play out.  Would it have been worth playing hardball with Nassib and potentially miss out on him if Mayock really like him?  I don't think so.  Now players like Mariota and Witten I feel like we overpaid for them but the QB market is hard to gauge and if Gruden really wanted and likes Mariota (I don't see why ) is letting him linger on the FA market to save 2 million on his salary worth the risk?  I don't think so.  

What does Mariota have over Dalton?  Age, mobility and injury excuses.  The age difference is not debatable but the injury excuse is.  Hopefully Gruden is right and injuries have affected his play over the last few years, he can build him back up and MM plays very well over the next 2 preseasons.  We can then pull a NE and deal him for a high end draft pick to some QB needy team.  That is best case scenario.  

I didn’t mean to sound like I was coming at you for saying “Gruden’s project”. That isn’t you making it up.... it’s almost become a meme in the RaiderNation.  Grudens like a child on Christmas Day and QBs who have a even sliver of promise that he things he can shine up is his brand new toy.
 

I hear you to some degree on overpaying to get guys.... I agree we’d have to overpay good starters but I don’t buy it on average starters or 3rd DEs & 3rd/4th safeties.... guys like Nassib and Heath.  Nassib only started half his teams games the last 2 years, they’re might have been 3-4 teams sending him offers....And at best 2 were really competitive.  I negotiate 50-150k projects literally daily and while that isn’t really comparable to the scale of what Marc Badain and Mayock do.... but I just get the sense we’re “quoting/bidding the job not selling the job”.  That’s a term we use at work.  Quickly summarized: bidding means just giving the price, selling means giving the number while you SELL yourself and the opportunity.  I sell pool projects that will always cost more than the competition, because we use better products, enjoy better workers who make more money as a result, and just to be honest we charge much better margins.  Thus, I SELL the product and the company and price is secondary.  The benefits (durability, features, design, etc) are “the SELL”.

My point being we’re not the dumpster fire we once were.  Mayocks built up a reputable organizational structure with the best stadium and facilities in the league.  No state tax.  Up and coming team... opportunity to start!!!!

it just seems like we’re flipping the mentality of negotiating with average players.  You overpay and sweet talk, wine and dine Byron Jones.  You tell Carl Nassib “hey we really think the world of you and your play, Followed you since Penn St, we think you could start here and really take the next step.... I know Seattle offered 3y, 24M but we can do 3y, 22M which is comparable given the tax incentives but more importantly the structure of the deal guarantees you 2 years and we feel by that time we’d be looking to extend you because we won’t want you hitting the market again once your game has exploded like we think it can”.

You don’t win in FA by outbidding for average starters..... you can’t ever win that way.  Think about it this way: if we could save 1.25M annually on Nassib and 1.5M on Heath, that’s 2.75M.  That money could get us Carlos Hyde.  He’d definitely help this team out a lot.  Rich people didn’t get rich by overpaying.

you gotta be willing to walk away.  If we didn’t sign Nassib there was still a other options like Mayowa, or Everson Griffin... or Clowney.  You can’t panic day 3 of FA.

the “best case scenario” with Mariota Isn’t even very good.  At best we pay him 4-5M and pump and dump him for a day 3 pick... and have no backup. We really can’t even pump and dump him... a 5th round pick isn’t work the risk of Carr going down and having to move Peterson up from the PS or Blake Bortles (he’s still out there) off the street AND start him. Yes, Mariota is better to have than Dalton but IMO he isn’t 6.125M better or 2 solid starters; we could take that and use our remaining cap and get Clowney or Everson Griffin and Denmark/Kirkpatrick/etc etc.  

My point wasn’t to just Be itch to be itch.... it’s in the past what’s done is done.... it didn’t kill us infact these moves really strengthened our team.  There’s really 2 points:  1) every move has an opportunity cost 2) we need to just tune up our negotiation skills going forward if we want to take the next step as an organization... because you win in FA by getting deals (Randal for 2.1M) not overpaying (Heath for 3.6M).

 

note: again I’m not be itching uncontrollably.  Im inpatient for the season to start and just enjoying conversation amongst fellow Raiders fans. And I totally understand I’m almost being petty.  I get all that.  It’s just that I believe there’s a small window between success and failure in building a roster and we need to fine tune some things moving forward.  And I acknowledge there’s always going to be better deals to be had when your  “Monday Morning QBing” the FA process.  Looking back on things always gives you a totally unfair advantage.  That said at the time I did say these moves were overpayments, it was obvious on day 1.

[jimkelly02]

2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I also think in hindsight we overpaid for some of our FA this offseason but Mayock had no idea how the market would play out.  Would it have been worth playing hardball with Nassib and potentially miss out on him if Mayock really like him?  I don't think so.  Now players like Mariota and Witten I feel like we overpaid for them but the QB market is hard to gauge and if Gruden really wanted and likes Mariota (I don't see why ) is letting him linger on the FA market to save 2 million on his salary worth the risk?  I don't think so.  

Yes.... I think you have to be willing to walk on a guy like Nassib.  You don’t do that with Trent Brown, but Nassib absolutely. And Heath... absa-freggin-lootly.  He’s not the only option.  There were plenty of other options remaining.  I’m really glad we got him.  But you gotta get the best deal possible.  Again the window of opportunity to build a winning roster is so slim... if you can save X and use that to add player Y that could greatly impact your team.  And going deeper... when you overpay guys like Nassib you usually end up creating a situation where even if they play up to the level they should they become cap cuts after year 2 when there’s no dead cap, because they’re not worth what your paying AND there’s better values out there.   Now I admit in this case, the way we structured the deal (paying him 7.75, 9.5, 8.0) he’ll likely be worth keeping year 3.  But if the year 2 & 3 payouts we’re flipped he’d likely be cut year 3 unless he plays way better than expected.

Also, I don’t buy the line of “he’s a young player we can build with” that I’ve heard somewhere else.  He’s guaranteed to be here only 2 years and at best 3.  He’s not a franchise cornerstone and I’d rather have the flexibility to sign a veteran like Everson Griffin for 1 year and then resign him or sign someone else (another aging but productive veteran).  I get the argument with key Players but not role players.

I’m with you to a good degree on the risk management in negotiations. But it just seems like we do the same thing we did with Trent Brown (who again I love and am so happy we got... great move even at the cost it was)..... we called up at 12:01am and offered the largest deal ever.  I just feel we’re the guy who walks onto the car lot and pays over sticker for a Honda cuz “it was the last metallic blue they had and I didn’t want to lose it”.  My point being... are we even trying to get the best deal possible? Are we at least offering 10, they counter with 14, we agree on 12 or even 12.5?  You get me?  

[Frankie2Gunz]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

Yes.... I think you have to be willing to walk on a guy like Nassib.  You don’t do that with Trent Brown, but Nassib absolutely. And Heath... absa-freggin-lootly.  He’s not the only option.  There were plenty of other options remaining.  I’m really glad we got him.  But you gotta get the best deal possible.  Again the window of opportunity to build a winning roster is so slim... if you can save X and use that to add player Y that could greatly impact your team.  And going deeper... when you overpay guys like Nassib you usually end up creating a situation where even if they play up to the level they should they become cap cuts after year 2 when there’s no dead cap, because they’re not worth what your paying AND there’s better values out there.   Now I admit in this case, the way we structured the deal (paying him 7.75, 9.5, 8.0) he’ll likely be worth keeping year 3.  But if the year 2 & 3 payouts we’re flipped he’d likely be cut year 3 unless he plays way better than expected.

Also, I don’t buy the line of “he’s a young player we can build with” that I’ve heard somewhere else.  He’s guaranteed to be here only 2 years and at best 3.  He’s not a franchise cornerstone and I’d rather have the flexibility to sign a veteran like Everson Griffin for 1 year and then resign him or sign someone else (another aging but productive veteran).  I get the argument with key Players but not role players.

I’m with you to a good degree on the risk management in negotiations. But it just seems like we do the same thing we did with Trent Brown (who again I love and am so happy we got... great move even at the cost it was)..... we called up at 12:01am and offered the largest deal ever.  I just feel we’re the guy who walks onto the car lot and pays over sticker for a Honda cuz “it was the last metallic blue they had and I didn’t want to lose it”.  My point being... are we even trying to get the best deal possible? Are we at least offering 10, they counter with 14, we agree on 12 or even 12.5?  You get me?  

Mayock is trying to build our roster the same way BB has done in NE.  He brings in high character, blue collar, lunch pail guys that he wants and fit a need for our team and future.  I get why he went after a player like Nassib, the guy is well rounded and brings it every day.  Is he a sexy name like Clowney, no he is not but I will tell you I would much rather have Nassib at 7 million than Clowney at 17.

Clowney, over his 5 years starting has averaged 6.5 sacks per season.  When he didn't have JJ Watt playing next to him who commands a double team on every snap Clowney had 3 sacks last year in Seattle.  Clowney is overrated but if we can sign him to a 1 year deal in the neighborhood of 12 million I would be all for it. 

I think Nassib provides solid value at 7 million for a rotational DE who can get after the passer when needed and still provide stout support in the run game.  Could we have gotten him for less money, possibly but it is hard to know what his market was.  I think character and work ethic are huge with Mayock and  you brought up E. Griffen who has mental health issues is not the type of player Maycok would want in our clubhouse.  We have dealt with guys like that before (AB) and that has turned out terribly.  

Turning this franchise around has to be a systematic philosophical change over years past and I understand why Mayock is focused on work ethic and character over flash and pizazz.  Flash and pizazz has lead us to where we are today and while I love what Mayock has done so far, his work is far from done.  It has taken another complete roster overhaul and considering he has been here just 2 years he has done a stellar job.  Long gone are the Javon Walker, Desmond Howard, Larry Brown, McFadden, Mcclain, Jawalrus, DHB, J. Ward, Obi....  I'm getting sick just mentioning the disastrous moves of years past.  

I assure you that Mayock won't have a perfect track record when it comes to FA and drafting but I see what he is doing and I like it.  Blue collar guys like Nassib are not sexy but necessary for us to take a step forward, as this team has been so devoid of depth at key positions it's sickening.  

[agarcia34]

Mark Davis said that they will likely have home games without fans. 
 

I am very surprised by this tbh. Thought for sure with it being a new stadium that they would allow the 20 percent of fans that most teams are allowing. Things could always change. 

[RaidersAreOne]

 

[jimkelly02]

16 hours ago, agarcia34 said:

Mark Davis said that they will likely have home games without fans. 
 

I am very surprised by this tbh. Thought for sure with it being a new stadium that they would allow the 20 percent of fans that most teams are allowing. Things could always change. 

That’s horrible news for us... that’s a big financial hit...and league wide bad news because If we don’t have fans in seats with that new stadium I doubt most teams won’t either.

[jimkelly02]

On 7/19/2020 at 3:46 PM, Frankie2Gunz said:

Mayock is trying to build our roster the same way BB has done in NE.  He brings in high character, blue collar, lunch pail guys that he wants and fit a need for our team and future.  I get why he went after a player like Nassib, the guy is well rounded and brings it every day.  Is he a sexy name like Clowney, no he is not but I will tell you I would much rather have Nassib at 7 million than Clowney at 17.

Clowney, over his 5 years starting has averaged 6.5 sacks per season.  When he didn't have JJ Watt playing next to him who commands a double team on every snap Clowney had 3 sacks last year in Seattle.  Clowney is overrated but if we can sign him to a 1 year deal in the neighborhood of 12 million I would be all for it. 

I think Nassib provides solid value at 7 million for a rotational DE who can get after the passer when needed and still provide stout support in the run game.  Could we have gotten him for less money, possibly but it is hard to know what his market was.  I think character and work ethic are huge with Mayock and  you brought up E. Griffen who has mental health issues is not the type of player Maycok would want in our clubhouse.  We have dealt with guys like that before (AB) and that has turned out terribly.  

Turning this franchise around has to be a systematic philosophical change over years past and I understand why Mayock is focused on work ethic and character over flash and pizazz.  Flash and pizazz has lead us to where we are today and while I love what Mayock has done so far, his work is far from done.  It has taken another complete roster overhaul and considering he has been here just 2 years he has done a stellar job.  Long gone are the Javon Walker, Desmond Howard, Larry Brown, McFadden, Mcclain, Jawalrus, DHB, J. Ward, Obi....  I'm getting sick just mentioning the disastrous moves of years past.  

I assure you that Mayock won't have a perfect track record when it comes to FA and drafting but I see what he is doing and I like it.  Blue collar guys like Nassib are not sexy but necessary for us to take a step forward, as this team has been so devoid of depth at key positions it's sickening.  

Nassib doesn’t cost 7M.  He signed 3y, 25.25M with bonuses up to 28M.  His cap hits are 7.75M (Guaranteed), 9.5M (5.75M guaranteed... which essentially guarantees it all), and 8.0M.

Yes, I’m really being a stickler for exact costs.  But it’s very important to my discuss.  I very didn’t like adding Nassib, in fact I specifically said I liked the addition many times.  My only issue we slightly overpaid IMO.

if it was 7.0m a year with year 1 guaranteed only I wouldn’t be debating this, I’d be applauding Mayock.  But the reality of it is year 2 is guaranteed in full at 9.5M because we won’t cut him and pay 5.75M to save 3.5-3.75M (.25M workout bonus).  That’s a lot of money for a 3rd DE.  Mayowa, a very good 3rd DE for us last year, signed for 3.05M.  
 

I’m on record for not wanting Clowney for 18m but would for 12Mish too.  I’m just using that as a point.... because so many people DO want him even at 18M.  And it backs my “opportunity cost” belief that overpaying for Nassib and Heath and debatably others meant we can’t afford to sign him, or guys like him.

Ive applauded Mayock’s conservative approach.... I’ve made my opinions well known here... it’s obvious I love a good Conservative Catholic approach, lol.   My point was only that it seems like we’re not trying to get the best deal possible.

im not debating Nassib’s addition, only debating the finer points of his and Heath’s contract.  And I’m stand fast in my belief that we’ve done very well constructing this roster but going forward we’ll need to be a little bit tougher negotiating contracts and finding deals, especially for non starters.  
 

in Free agency, with guys like Nassib your always paying for either past production or the potential for better production then that player has given. 

lastly, when we overpay slightly or structure the deal a certain way it leads to good players being unfortunate cap cuts in later years because despite good play they’re expendable.

Btw, Griffin had a mental health issue several years ago and dealt with it.  I’m far from some soft Lefty but I’m all for giving someone a second chance, after they’ve proven themselves.  It worked with Incognito.  How is that any different... besides Incognito’s situation being way more often and worse?  Griffin has proven to be a great leader and contributor for a decade.

 

Simply put I don’t mind year 1 of his deal at all, but year 2 @ 9.5M is the issue.

[RaidersAreOne]

 

[Humble_Beast]

On 7/18/2020 at 6:12 PM, jimkelly02 said:

Im all for having a competent backup QB but there were several players who could have been had for under 3.0as opposed to 9.125M.

if Carr went down for 2 games I’d be totally okay with dalton starting.

matiota impressed enough to get you to say “if we can fix”, “if he only ____”, “in a new scheme / different coaching”.

to heck with all this run around QB stuff, qb’s gotta be able to drop back and hit their targets reliably and Mariota can’t do that.  He’ll never be that guy.

”It gives Gruden a project”.... well maybe Gruden should just learn to golf or build ships in a bottle lol cuz we substain on paying Mariota 9.125M and Peterson 2.133M so Gruden can be coddled with his “projects”.  
 

again I don’t hate the moves we made... I’m not trying to be Mr. Negative but we did ignore some better values with Mariota, Heath, etc and now we don’t have the money to sign Clowney, for example.  It’s all about “opportunity cost”: what does this move prevent us from getting in the future.  
 

We also likely (key word is likely) could have negotiated Nassib down a bit.  It sounds like when we signed Trent Brown: we called him up with such a higher contract he couldn’t say no... 4yrs, 66M,,, but would he have taken 60M? Prolly.  Would Nassib have taken 4y, 22M not 25? Prolly.  We just need to negotiate better imo. 

Dalton took a hometown discount. Jerry probably pitched him a chance to start on his team. Would have cost more, but Jameis or MM would have been fine. MM overpaid as we jumped the gun to sign him. 

[jimkelly02]

10 minutes ago, Humble_Beast said:

Dalton took a hometown discount. Jerry probably pitched him a chance to start on his team. Would have cost more, but Jameis or MM would have been fine. MM overpaid as we jumped the gun to sign him. 

Maybe Dalton costs 4,5 not 3... whatever... point is we almost all Agree we jumped the gun....

which was the point I’ve always made.  Mariota and Heath Signings should have waited,,, I can understand Nassib.  

[Humble_Beast]

15 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

Maybe Dalton costs 4,5 not 3... whatever... point is we almost all Agree we jumped the gun....

which was the point I’ve always made.  Mariota and Heath Signings should have waited,,, I can understand Nassib.  

Yeah, I can understand rushing to fill out starters spots. Depth is where you find the value, so you can have more depth. I like most the moves but Witten, Heath, MM meh...