The Batman not part of DCEU

[Superman(DH23)]

On 8/25/2017 at 1:53 PM, HorizontoZenith said:

I completely disagree.  You can't fix a bad movie with reshoots.  Name one movie that went with EXTENSIVE reshoots from a DIFFERENT director that  turned out to be a good movie.  The movie is going to by Snyder, and there's no way Whedon can fix everything that will have been wrong with Snyder's movie. 

6 weeks is normal principal photography for a blockbuster.  This means they had time to reshoot the entire movie and they probably did.  And yes bvs could have been made better with reshoots and a better editor.  The biggest problem with bvs was that the theatrical cut didnt tell a cohesive story.

[43M]

1 hour ago, Superman(DH23) said:

6 weeks is normal principal photography for a blockbuster.  This means they had time to reshoot the entire movie and they probably did.  And yes bvs could have been made better with reshoots and a better editor.  The biggest problem with bvs was that the theatrical cut didnt tell a cohesive story.

Yeah....reshoots and editing definitely couldve made BvS better, but unless they used those reshoots to a) replace Eisenberg as Lex and b) got rid of or changed the incoherent scheme Lex had, and c) completely scrapped everything involving Doomsday, the film wouldve remained very flawed, as those 3 put a huge damper on the movie IMO.   But yes, at the very least, reshoots and better editing could make the storytelling more cohesive.

[StLunatic88]

58 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Yeah....reshoots and editing definitely couldve made BvS better, but unless they used those reshoots to a) replace Eisenberg as Lex and b) got rid of or changed the incoherent scheme Lex had, and c) completely scrapped everything involving Doomsday, the film wouldve remained very flawed, as those 3 put a huge damper on the movie IMO.   But yes, at the very least, reshoots and better editing could make the storytelling more cohesive.

You are correct, they couldnt have completely fixed the Eisenberg/Lex stuff. But had they emphasized that he was Alexander (Lex Jr), and that the actual Lex was out there somewhere, it would have quelled alot of the uproar over the character. Along with making him more mad, than calculating, then the incoherent scheme would be understandable. Not make sense, but realize that this petulant man/baby thinks he can force the superheros fight for his amusement.

And honestly, using Doomsday wasnt the problem. Its just that the film was so muddled at that point, and he was already stupidly revealed in Trailer #2, that he had no chance to succeed. Had they kept him hidden, given us 1 or 2 more 'versions' of him as he died and was reborn, and earned the Superman death in the end, it would have been just fine.

[43M]

1 minute ago, StLunatic88 said:

You are correct, they couldnt have completely fixed the Eisenberg/Lex stuff. But had they emphasized that he was Alexander (Lex Jr), and that the actual Lex was out there somewhere, it would have quelled alot of the uproar over the character. Along with making him more mad, than calculating, then the incoherent scheme would be understandable. Not make sense, but realize that this petulant man/baby thinks he can force the superheros fight for his amusement.

And honestly, using Doomsday wasnt the problem. Its just that the film was so muddled at that point, and he was already stupidly revealed in Trailer #2, that he had no chance to succeed. Had they kept him hidden, given us 1 or 2 more 'versions' of him as he died and was reborn, and earned the Superman death in the end, it would have been just fine.

While they didnt emphasize it, they did refer to him as Alexander quite a few times and referenced his father several times....even though he was SUPPOSEDLY dead in the movie.   Point is....they could still easily play that card in a future film, but yeah, I think if they made it clear he wasnt the real Lex, he wouldnt be judged as harshly.

I have to disagree about Doomsday.     Doomsday and The Death of Superman had no business happening so soon IMO.     My biggest issue with that is the fact that they still havent made people love Superman and make his death have a profound impact.   IMO, BvS shouldve focused more on. well...Batman and Superman's feud.....but it felt rushed and the motivations were so stupid.

I like the idea of Lex manipulating Batman and Superman to be enemies, but the way they did it in BvS was so bad.   Lex hated Superman for no real reason other than maybe he was jealous of his power.....but it wouldve been much better if it started off with him trying to befriend and manipulate Superman to work for him, but after Superman refuses, he sets off a chain of events that makes Superman seem like a threat, and then stoking Batman's paranoia and providing him with an exosuit to fight Superman.     And if they needed another villain, I wish it wouldve been Metallo.    Between Lex and the feud between Batman and Superman, they didnt need one of the more iconic enemies in the movie.     

[MacReady]

2 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

6 weeks is normal principal photography for a blockbuster. 

Lol.  You're not going to find three superhero movies that completed principal photography in 6 weeks much less ensemble blockbusters (Batman, Flash, Aquaman...) that took 6 weeks to shoot.  Like... Really? 

No, you cannot completely re-film a movie in 6 weeks.  Another thing you have to remember is that you're not re-filming much at all in 6 weeks, certainly not a whole movie, because if you re-film a whole movie, you're doubling that movie's production budget.  Do you really think they're going to double the movie's production budget over six  weeks to entirely re-shoot the whole film?  Don't even argue this one because we both know you're not that dense to argue that JL was entirely re-filmed, and we both know that, after filming was completed, BvS could not have been made into a better movie.

No amount of editing would have fixed Lex Luthor.  No amount of editing would have fixed Batman's Martha revelation.  No amount of editing would have fixed the movie unless it cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, at which point you'd have no movie.  The movie was actually very finely edited.  It was that the movie was a mess with dialogue, with plot, with acting.  And they had two chances to edit it.  In the director's cut, Lois Lane figured out that one guy didn't mean to blow everybody else because he bought fruit.  Lol.  "He bought fruit.  He didn't do it." 

[StLunatic88]

13 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

I have to disagree about Doomsday.     Doomsday and The Death of Superman had no business happening so soon IMO.     My biggest issue with that is the fact that they still havent made people love Superman and make his death have a profound impact.   IMO, BvS shouldve focused more on. well...Batman and Superman's feud.....but it felt rushed and the motivations were so stupid.

I like the idea of Lex manipulating Batman and Superman to be enemies, but the way they did it in BvS was so bad.   Lex hated Superman for no real reason other than maybe he was jealous of his power.....but it wouldve been much better if it started off with him trying to befriend and manipulate Superman to work for him, but after Superman refuses, he sets off a chain of events that makes Superman seem like a threat, and then stoking Batman's paranoia and providing him with an exosuit to fight Superman.     And if they needed another villain, I wish it wouldve been Metallo.    Between Lex and the feud between Batman and Superman, they didnt need one of the more iconic enemies in the movie.     

I dont disagree with anything you are saying here. But to me, the decision to cram the Death of Superman story line into what was originally the retelling of The Dark Knight Returns story is completely separate from the execution of the Doomsday character itself. But that all comes down to no one who knows comics, or how to build universes being in charge of DC at the time. I cant imagine Geoff Johns would have ever let both TDKR and DoS ever been told at the same time (not to mention the introduction of WW on top of all of that).

But yes I agree, the idea of Lex pitting them against each other makes sense as the basis of their feud (especially Lex painting him as the 'Alien threat' after being rebuffed, and getting in Bruce Wayne's ear about it). And Metallo would have fit very well, especially with the idea of Kryptonite as a power source to combat Superman being used by Batman as well.  (which also feeds into Supes needing Batman and/or Wonder Woman to help and defeat the villain). And if they felt just a meat sack for the Trinity to beat up together was all that was needed, you could have used Prof. Ivo and AMAZO.

 

I actually had the idea prior to the film that Ivo would have been selling Androids to Lex who is building a personal army, calling them Automated Military Androids. the human sized bots being his first iteration, and the Kryptonite laced giant prototype built specifically to combat Superman being called an A.M.A 2.0 and that way the Trinity can fight off a non-human army, and have to team up to take down the A.M.A.2.0 because Superman cant fight off the kryptonite.

[Superman(DH23)]

2 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Yeah....reshoots and editing definitely couldve made BvS better, but unless they used those reshoots to a) replace Eisenberg as Lex and b) got rid of or changed the incoherent scheme Lex had, and c) completely scrapped everything involving Doomsday, the film wouldve remained very flawed, as those 3 put a huge damper on the movie IMO.   But yes, at the very least, reshoots and better editing could make the storytelling more cohesive.

Idk if you have seen the ultimate cut but ll's plan makes more sense in that context.  He is sending letters to bats to rile him up against supes.  Hes killing the prisoners with bat brand to pit clark against bruce.  Its still a total mess with regards to the doomsday stuff and they miss what makes lex, lex which is that he views himself as humanitys protector and just applies a by any means necessary approach. Eisenberg played lex too crazy and not enough mastermind.  Honestly eisenberg could have played luthor as mark zuckerberg as a criminal and it could have been brilliant

[43M]

4 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

Idk if you have seen the ultimate cut but ll's plan makes more sense in that context.  He is sending letters to bats to rile him up against supes.  Hes killing the prisoners with bat brand to pit clark against bruce.  Its still a total mess with regards to the doomsday stuff and they miss what makes lex, lex which is that he views himself as humanitys protector and just applies a by any means necessary approach. Eisenberg played lex too crazy and not enough mastermind.  Honestly eisenberg could have played luthor as mark zuckerberg as a criminal and it could have been brilliant

Yeah, Ive seen it, and while it is more cohesive, I still didnt like Lex.   

I never like Eisenberg as Lex because I think Lex should possess a gravitas and alpha male personality....not a twitchy, twenty something tech mogul with daddy issues and a jolly rancher fetish.

Beyond the portrayal,  his motivations still made little sense to me.   Even with the extended cut, I didnt feel there was a real reason for Lex to hate Superman as much as he did, nor did I feel like Batman had a reason to hate Superman either.   A traditional Lex is obsessed with power and shouldve tried to manipulate him before he tried to kill him.     And Batman is supposed to be level headed and logical.   I know this was supposed to be a more jaded, angry Batman....but he djdnt even remotely try to find another way....he just went straight to "Kill Superman" mode.

I like BvS....its okay, but it had the potential to be so much more . Thats the thing with both Man of Steel and BvS.....somewhere in both of those is a truly great movie, but they take themselves too seriously at times and in BvS case, they tried to cram too much in get too tricky with its story telling which is a common downfall for many superhero movies.

One thing Ive learned from watching Marvel movies is that the key to a good superhero movie is "simplicity".    Dont try to be more than what you are, and dont make needless changes, especially to characters.    We didnt need a twitchy Lex, we didnt need a murderous Batman and we didnt need a mopey Superman.      Batman and Superman should get the necessary changes, but Im still hoping they can fix Lex, either by introducing his father as the real Lex, or with Flashpoint.  

[THE DUKE]

Initial production on Batman vs Superman was nearly 8 months

http://collider.com/batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice-filming-wraps/

[MacReady]

2 hours ago, THE DUKE said:

Initial production on Batman vs Superman was nearly 8 months

http://collider.com/batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice-filming-wraps/

This cannot be.  Most blockbusters have a 6 week principal photography.  :lol: times a billion.