Raiders Defense

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, Dessie said:

I’ll bear that in mind going forward. 

What do you think is more indicative of how good a player is? A 5 year sample size or a 1 year sample size? 

[Dessie]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

What do you think is more indicative of how good a player is? A 5 year sample size or a 1 year sample size? 

What’s more indicative, how a player played last year or how he played in 2017 ? 

[NYRaider]

27 minutes ago, Dessie said:

What’s more indicative, how a player played last year or how he played in 2017 ? 

I think an overall career is more indicative of how good a player is rather than a single year, in a new system, on a bad defense. Between 2014-2018, a 5 year period, Joyner was one of the best safeties/nicklebacks in the league. Statistics prove that. He wasn't very good last year but I'm still not going to say he sucks as a player because we've seen him play at a very high level for 5 years on one of the best teams in the league and he's only 29. 

But I wouldn't expect Raider fans to understand that. Because Carr was really good for 1 year out of 6 and for whatever reason people here still think he's a borderline elite player. 

[MrOaktown_56]

10 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

What do you think is more indicative of how good a player is? A 5 year sample size or a 1 year sample size? 

He couldn't run with receivers last year. It was concerning. I heard mutterings of a hamstring injury so I'll give him a generous pass. But I will be very disappointed if we don't add a young nickel behind Joyner (Amik Robertson I'm looking at you).

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

He couldn't run with receivers last year. It was concerning. I heard mutterings of a hamstring injury so I'll give him a generous pass. But I will be very disappointed if we don't add a young nickel behind Joyner (Amik Robertson I'm looking at you).

Joyner didn't play well last year. But to say he's not an above average player is inaccurate. He was a baller for one of the best teams in the league with the Rams. Agree that we should draft his replacement though. I wouldn't even mind a scenario where Robertson takes over as the starting nickel back, Joyner moves back to FS, and we cut Erik Harris. 

[Bitty 2.0]

9 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I think an overall career is more indicative of how good a player is rather than a single year, in a new system, on a bad defense. Between 2014-2018, a 5 year period, Joyner was one of the best safeties/nicklebacks in the league. Statistics prove that. He wasn't very good last year but I'm still not going to say he sucks as a player because we've seen him play at a very high level for 5 years on one of the best teams in the league and he's only 29. 

But I wouldn't expect Raider fans to understand that. Because Carr was really good for 1 year out of 6 and for whatever reason people here still think he's a borderline elite player. 

True or false Carr got better year over year in the Gruden's system?

[NYRaider]

4 minutes ago, Bitty 2.0 said:

True or false Carr got better year over year in the Gruden's system?

2018: 4,049 yards, 68.9 comp%, 19 TD (3.4 TD%), 10 INT (1.8 INT%)

2019: 4,054 yards, 70.4 comp%, 21 TD (4.1 TD%) 8 INT (1.6 INT%)

Carr is who he is at this point.

[jimkelly02]

5 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Joyner didn't play well last year. But to say he's not an above average player is inaccurate. He was a baller for one of the best teams in the league with the Rams. Agree that we should draft his replacement though. I wouldn't even mind a scenario where Robertson takes over as the starting nickel back, Joyner moves back to FS, and we cut Erik Harris. 

I disagree about cutting Harris totally.  He’s solid and cheap and can start if needed.  Depth pieces are very important, especially if we Make a playoff push.  
We’re not likely to move Joyner unless some crazy circumstances happen, the staff has shown they want to leave him at sCB because they believe in him.  I’d be willing to believe his hamstring, combined with a new system and poor communication all around the back 7, led to his sub standard play.  I’m optimistic he rebounds though because like you mentioned he’s been a higher level player for many years prior and isn’t at the age of regression for several years.  I watched 2 games early in the year and one game in the middle and one at the end so far and he did seem to lack the burst to stay with guys in short distances, drive on the ball for a breakup, etc that he showed early in the year.  A hamstring pull will do that.  I guess he probably should have not tried to play thru the injury and sat out and healed sooner.  But i applaud him for playing thru it.  We were in the playoff hunt during the time of the initial injury.

 

id like to get Robertson like a bunch of people but i think that’s low on the priorities list.  WR(x2), RB2, SAM, pass rusher/DL, Outside CB are all bigger needs.  Slot CB is right there with a LT2 to replace Parker on the needs list.  With it unlikely the coaches will move Joyner to S, and a young promising Nixon and the forgotten Nick Nelson,,, who was a very nice 4th round sCB (not outside corner like we played him at) only 2 years ago we have the two roster spots we need and solid competition.  
 

We’d basically be drafting Robertson to learn and sit the bench til he starts in ‘21 hopefully.  Hes not likely to play outside.  We can only carry 10-11 DBs and he’d push someone off the team.  Robertson is a nice prospect but there will be 2 more guys equal to him next year in the same draft range and a ton of proven vets in FA for under $5M.  
while I’d be very happy getting Robertson at 91.... I don’t think it’s a major need.  To me it’s a want everyone has.  If we don’t get him we’re all likely to forget about him til Feb ‘24 when he hits FA.

[jimkelly02]

When it’s draft time and we’re not likely to draft anyone at QB early, signed Mariota.... already been thru the DCQ (a reference to the JQ), and are still bad mouthing Carr in a ‘20 Defense thread ..... its officially too much.  Hate him or tolerate him he’s the QB heading into TC.  He’s also very likely to be the QB game 1.  It’s almost like people are rooting against him and by virtue rooting against the Raiders.  The team execs made the decision to roll with him, can’t we just support the guy until he messes up bad enough for a sane person to call for his job?  If he plays well we can make the playoffs, isn’t that what we all want?

the level Of hatred and disgust for the guy is crazy.  I get that during the off-season people rightfully questioned if he should stay but that chance to replace him sailed.... it’s just sour grapes to keep complaining about him... he’s here to start the season if you want or not.

[MrOaktown_56]

12 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

I disagree about cutting Harris totally.  He’s solid and cheap and can start if needed.  Depth pieces are very important, especially if we Make a playoff push.  
We’re not likely to move Joyner unless some crazy circumstances happen, the staff has shown they want to leave him at sCB because they believe in him.  I’d be willing to believe his hamstring, combined with a new system and poor communication all around the back 7, led to his sub standard play.  I’m optimistic he rebounds though because like you mentioned he’s been a higher level player for many years prior and isn’t at the age of regression for several years.  I watched 2 games early in the year and one game in the middle and one at the end so far and he did seem to lack the burst to stay with guys in short distances, drive on the ball for a breakup, etc that he showed early in the year.  A hamstring pull will do that.  I guess he probably should have not tried to play thru the injury and sat out and healed sooner.  But i applaud him for playing thru it.  We were in the playoff hunt during the time of the initial injury.

 

id like to get Robertson like a bunch of people but i think that’s low on the priorities list.  WR(x2), RB2, SAM, pass rusher/DL, Outside CB are all bigger needs.  Slot CB is right there with a LT2 to replace Parker on the needs list.  With it unlikely the coaches will move Joyner to S, and a young promising Nixon and the forgotten Nick Nelson,,, who was a very nice 4th round sCB (not outside corner like we played him at) only 2 years ago we have the two roster spots we need and solid competition.  
 

We’d basically be drafting Robertson to learn and sit the bench til he starts in ‘21 hopefully.  Hes not likely to play outside.  We can only carry 10-11 DBs and he’d push someone off the team.  Robertson is a nice prospect but there will be 2 more guys equal to him next year in the same draft range and a ton of proven vets in FA for under $5M.  
while I’d be very happy getting Robertson at 91.... I don’t think it’s a major need.  To me it’s a want everyone has.  If we don’t get him we’re all likely to forget about him til Feb ‘24 when he hits FA.

I mildly disagree. I think SCB is a big need because Joyner could be gone as soon as next year. Plus you can never have too many good corners, especially against a team like KC that likes to spread things out.

I'd say SCB is a bigger need than SAM, where I'm sure Lee can be serviceable. Plus morrow can rotate in for depth at all LB positions. He's a decent depth guy. I agree that pass rusher and RB are underrated needs. As is a developmental WR.

[NYRaider]

It's going to be refreshing to see a defense with speed and athleticism at all 3 levels. Hoping for Terrell if we stay put at #19. 

[MrOaktown_56]

Just now, NYRaider said:

It's going to be refreshing to see a defense with speed and athleticism at all 3 levels. Hoping for Terrell if we stay put at #19. 

I want a defense that can't be "outrun" anywhere. I keep flashing back to the 28 point 2nd quarter vs KC. I never want to see anything like that ever again.

Randall and the LB corps will help. As will Abram. But we need another fluid speedy boundary CB and 2 more secondary players waiting in the wings if we're being honest for me to feel good.

[NYRaider]

3 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I want a defense that can't be "outrun" anywhere. I keep flashing back to the 28 point 2nd quarter vs KC. I never want to see anything like that ever again.

Randall and the LB corps will help. As will Abram. But we need another fluid speedy boundary CB and 2 more secondary players waiting in the wings if we're being honest for me to feel good.

We'll have a lot more speed and athleticism already with Randall/Abram at safety and Kwit/Littleton at LB. Agree that we need an early #2 CB and more depth at DB. 

[jimkelly02]

24 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I mildly disagree. I think SCB is a big need because Joyner could be gone as soon as next year. Plus you can never have too many good corners, especially against a team like KC that likes to spread things out.

I'd say SCB is a bigger need than SAM, where I'm sure Lee can be serviceable. Plus morrow can rotate in for depth at all LB positions. He's a decent depth guy. I agree that pass rusher and RB are underrated needs. As is a developmental WR.

I’m not arguing against your point.  But My counter point is Joyner is the sCB in ‘20.  Nixon or Nelson are capable backups.  We’ll likely carry 4 outside CBs and 2 sCBs.  We could potential carry 11 DBs but I doubt it.  From what I read The “55” man roster is just the old 53 with the ability to activate 2 of the 12 Practice Squad players.... and 48 not 46 game day actives.  It’s not like Robertson or even Nixon could squeeze onto the PS.  
 

so the numbers game factors in.  How many snaps can Robertson get and how much better will he be as a rookie over Nixon.  I don’t see him contributing that much and that much better than Nixon would.

It’s not like Robertson is an elite sCB far above what will be available to us in ‘21 whether via draft or FA.  My main point is we could wait to fill the starting ‘21 sCB til ‘21.  There’s always newer shinier toys out there. sCBs are plentiful and cheap.  Bring $5M to FA and you got the pick of the litter!  Drop a 3rd on a guy in the draft almost every year and you got someone quality to him.  If you want a sCB for this year there still very very good FAs left who’d happily take $2.5-3M max.

hes not a perfect prospect and if you keep your options open you might find someone better and that pick might land a stud player.  

I have no problem investing 91 in robertson and him as the future of our sCB.  But if we filled another need wouldn’t lose sleep over it.  
 

I feel like to some people (not you) he’s this prospect they feel we have to have.  Well we don’t NEED him, but it’d be nice to have.  I think we should draft a CB in rounds 1-2 and sign a vet as security.  
those two additions seem to limit us to 2 sCBs or cut Nevin, who can play inside and out.  It’s a tight numbers game. And I have hopes for Nixon.  This goes back to the incrimental addition Robertson provides in ‘20.

[MrOaktown_56]

Just now, jimkelly02 said:

I’m not arguing against your point.  But My counter point is Joyner is the sCB in ‘20.  Nixon or Nelson are capable backups.  We’ll likely carry 4 outside CBs and 2 sCBs.  We could potential carry 11 DBs but I doubt it.  From what I read The “55” man roster is just the old 53 with the ability to activate 2 of the 12 Practice Squad players.... and 48 not 46 game day actives.  It’s not like Robertson or even Nixon could squeeze onto the PS.  
 

so the numbers game factors in.  How many snaps can Robertson get and how much better will he be as a rookie over Nixon.  I don’t see him contributing that much and that much better than Nixon would.

It’s not like Robertson is an elite sCB far above what will be available to us in ‘21 whether via draft or FA.  My main point is we could wait to fill the starting ‘21 sCB til ‘21.  There’s always newer shinier toys out there. sCBs are plentiful and cheap.  Bring $5M to FA and you got the pick of the litter!  Drop a 3rd on a guy in the draft almost every year and you got someone quality to him.  If you want a sCB for this year there still very very good FAs left who’d happily take $2.5-3M max.

hes not a perfect prospect and if you keep your options open you might find someone better and that pick might land a stud player.  

I have no problem investing 91 in robertson and him as the future of our sCB.  But if we filled another need wouldn’t lose sleep over it.  
 

I feel like to some people (not you) he’s this prospect they feel we have to have.  Well we don’t NEED him, but it’d be nice to have.  I think we should draft a CB in rounds 1-2 and sign a vet as security.  
those two additions seem to limit us to 2 sCBs or cut Nevin, who can play inside and out.  It’s a tight numbers game. And I have hopes for Nixon.  This goes back to the incrimental addition Robertson provides in ‘20.

I respect this opinion, but I haven't seen anything to justify it. Nixon COULD be a good slot corner, but we don't know for sure. Nelson was a nice college prospect but I didn't really see a ton out of him when he got snaps in 2018.

I think Robertson is nasty with great instincts and balls skills and is a starting slot from day 1 if he gets snaps. It's how highly I think of him as a player. But yeah I'd be fine with Dennard too. But if guys start falling in the secondary, we need guys who we can be excited about. If Robertson is gone, I don't see any slots who I'd bang the table for.

It wont kill us not to add him, like you said (unlike boundary CB and WR1), but Mayock was talking about adding "future value" and Robertson could be a good example of that. I think he may surprise and go mid-late 2nd, which I think would be a slight overdraft.