Redskins begin preliminary negs w/ Peterson; Guice is sprinting

[PARROTHEAD]

1 hour ago, Thaiphoon said:

Two things:

1) Remember, he was doing it behind a very banged up OL (and one that had a weak link at LG and blocking TE on Week 1)

2) His veteran leadership in terms of how to approach a particular play, etc... is also valuable. It was no surprise that when the others got in there, after watching MVP do his thing, that they hit the correct holes and were not timid like they had been in previous years. That's valuable. A RB corps of MVP, Guice, CT, rookie draft pick would be good to have.

I see your point in going youth. But I don't want to do that since we have Guice already. We need the 1st and 2nd down back to have some cachet. Especially since Guice was injured all last year.

Those are games spread all through the season.

You talk leadership. Yet it showed last season how fan perception effects the team. Several players spoke of it and how sensitive they were towards turnouts and having other teams fans outnumber their own. Your MVP (which I hope you mean as Most Violent Parent) is part of the cause. I know just within 2 miles of me 2 different people with season tickets that gave them up as soon as he signed. Such will continue to effect the teams psych so long as hes around.

Low production, fan deterrent, in his twilight. Hes not needed. And BADLY needs to go even more than Bruce if they want to change perceptions. 

[turtle28]

Ugh

[PARROTHEAD]

28 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Ugh

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“I feel like we play better on the road,” Norman told reporters after a 16-3 win at Tampa on Sunday. “I’m not gonna lie.”

“Gosh man. It seems like our true fans, they’re really with us on the road and we feed off of that,” Norman said. “When we go into the home stands, it seems like an open bubble or something. Like the other team’s turf or something. You hear more of them than you do us. Then, if something bad happens, they sulk. They sit back in their seat and they boo. I don’t know.

“It started to be this year that we started to see that. It’s kinda crazy because the first couple of years I’ve been here, you would see sellouts and all happy and excited and all for the Redskins, but now you go around see the whole NFC East teams – the Philly’s, the Giants and even Dallas – they sold out. People in the seats, they’re cheering for their team. Regardless good, bad or indifferent, they still showing up each and every week going hard. Even the Giants, when they was 1-6, hell they had a sellout crowd. They was all in there packed still!”

“We can play all our games on the road, if you ask me,” Norman went on to say.

Say Ugh all day long. It effected the teams play.

[Thaiphoon]

45 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

Those are games spread all through the season.

Yes, I acknowledged that. @turtle28 also pointed out Jay's incoherent calls for a running game. My point is that it's not all on him. For example, Mike Shanahan's system made backup RB's look like Pro Bowlers. 

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You talk leadership.

Yes. INSIDE the locker room. In terms of how to prepare for the game and be a pro.

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Yet it showed last season how fan perception effects the team. Several players spoke of it and how sensitive they were towards turnouts and having other teams fans outnumber their own.

Correct. A player who is a leader is not going to get to everyone. That comes from the coaching staff. Alas, we have Gruden, et al.

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Your MVP (which I hope you mean as Most Violent Parent) is part of the cause. I know just within 2 miles of me 2 different people with season tickets that gave them up as soon as he signed. Such will continue to effect the teams psych so long as hes around.

MVP stands for Most Valuable Player. Which is what he was on the offense last year. People are well within their rights to be upset with his signing. And well within their rights to decide not to continue with their season tickets. Do I think Peterson is a great parent? Nope. Do I think parents should discipline their children? Yup. Do I think he went too far? Yup. Do I think he should've been punished by the league? Yup. Do I think a bit of your opposition to re-signing him is that incident from awhile ago? Yes (but this is my own perception). Do I think we should stop bringing this crap up since we're getting close to Webby's line? Yes.

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Low production

Yeah? No. Peterson was 8th in the NFL in rushing yards. 8th. And that was behind a line that started with practically no one at LG in Week 1 and got worse from there. Coupled with a coach that can't call a running game to save his life. You've given out games where he didn't do so well. But remember the opposing defense has a say in things too. Remember, the first game we faced Saquon? How many yards did he get? 38 yards.

In fact, he had these yards in these games:

v. Dallas = 11 for 28

v. Houston = 17 for 82

v.. Saints = 10 for 44

v. Carolina = 15 for 48

v. Atlanta = 14 for 43

v. Redskins = 13 for 38

v. 49ers = 20 for 67

v. Titans = 14 for 31

v. Colts = 21 for 43

That's 9 games he didn't even come close to cracking 100 yards (or get close like Peterson did a bunch of times). You might be able to count the Houston game but I'm only counting "close" as 5 yards or less away from 100.

So how did the rookie do? Yeah...OROTY. 

Meanwhile Peterson did almost the same while toting the rock. He had some very forgettable games. And then he had some great games. As he went, so did our offense. And he did it at 30-something years old. Behind a line made of cheesecloth. With a coach that can't coach his way out of a wet paper bag.

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fan deterrent,

That's certainly true that he could be to some. But many will not look at it that way. that you and your neighbors have looked at it. I'm not seeing the outcry at signing him that Foster got.

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in his twilight.

And yet, in his twilight, with all that was going against him this year...he was the 8th leading rusher. Ahead of quite a lot of players much much younger.

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Hes not needed.

That's definitely a possibility. Perhaps we don't need him. So you're comfortable rolling in with the following?

1. Guice = unknown quantity at this point--> is he going to bounce back from surgery??
2. CT = Can't stay healthy. Can't rely on him
3. Marshall = where do I begin with this guy?
4. Some unproven rookie

I mean that's cool if you want to turn what could be a position you don't have to worry about into a turnstile position because we can't decide which runner to stick with.

And remember, if you 're gonna get more than JAG at the RB you better invest in a Day 1 or Day 2 pick. Which then takes away from strengthening other positions. I don't think that's a smart way to go. But that's why we disagree.

I'm okay with drafting a RB. I just want to do it so the RB Corps looks like this

MVP, Guice (so we can be sure Guice is ready to go)

CT

Rookie
 

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And BADLY needs to go even more than Bruce if they want to change perceptions. 

 

Sure, I get it. But I don't think your perceptions are the same as the majority of other fans. Are they the same perceptions of a large group of the fans? Certainly.

But again, it didn't move the needle like Reuben Foster's signing did. 

Besides...I don't think Danny cares about any of this so long as the NFL TV revenue checks keep cashing. So our discussion is probably moot anyway.

[rizzy]

32 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Yes, I acknowledged that. @turtle28 also pointed out Jay's incoherent calls for a running game. My point is that it's not all on him. For example, Mike Shanahan's system made backup RB's look like Pro Bowlers. 

Yes. INSIDE the locker room. In terms of how to prepare for the game and be a pro.

Correct. A player who is a leader is not going to get to everyone. That comes from the coaching staff. Alas, we have Gruden, et al.

MVP stands for Most Valuable Player. Which is what he was on the offense last year. People are well within their rights to be upset with his signing. And well within their rights to decide not to continue with their season tickets. Do I think Peterson is a great parent? Nope. Do I think parents should discipline their children? Yup. Do I think he went too far? Yup. Do I think he should've been punished by the league? Yup. Do I think a bit of your opposition to re-signing him is that incident from awhile ago? Yes (but this is my own perception). Do I think we should stop bringing this crap up since we're getting close to Webby's line? Yes.

Yeah? No. Peterson was 8th in the NFL in rushing yards. 8th. And that was behind a line that started with practically no one at LG in Week 1 and got worse from there. Coupled with a coach that can't call a running game to save his life. You've given out games where he didn't do so well. But remember the opposing defense has a say in things too. Remember, the first game we faced Saquon? How many yards did he get? 38 yards.

In fact, he had these yards in these games:

v. Dallas = 11 for 28

v. Houston = 17 for 82

v.. Saints = 10 for 44

v. Carolina = 15 for 48

v. Atlanta = 14 for 43

v. Redskins = 13 for 38

v. 49ers = 20 for 67

v. Titans = 14 for 31

v. Colts = 21 for 43

That's 9 games he didn't even come close to cracking 100 yards (or get close like Peterson did a bunch of times). You might be able to count the Houston game but I'm only counting "close" as 5 yards or less away from 100.

So how did the rookie do? Yeah...OROTY. 

Meanwhile Peterson did almost the same while toting the rock. He had some very forgettable games. And then he had some great games. As he went, so did our offense. And he did it at 30-something years old. Behind a line made of cheesecloth. With a coach that can't coach his way out of a wet paper bag.

That's certainly true that he could be to some. But many will not look at it that way. that you and your neighbors have looked at it. I'm not seeing the outcry at signing him that Foster got.

And yet, in his twilight, with all that was going against him this year...he was the 8th leading rusher. Ahead of quite a lot of players much much younger.

That's definitely a possibility. Perhaps we don't need him. So you're comfortable rolling in with the following?

1. Guice = unknown quantity at this point--> is he going to bounce back from surgery??
2. CT = Can't stay healthy. Can't rely on him
3. Marshall = where do I begin with this guy?
4. Some unproven rookie

I mean that's cool if you want to turn what could be a position you don't have to worry about into a turnstile position because we can't decide which runner to stick with.

And remember, if you 're gonna get more than JAG at the RB you better invest in a Day 1 or Day 2 pick. Which then takes away from strengthening other positions. I don't think that's a smart way to go. But that's why we disagree.

I'm okay with drafting a RB. I just want to do it so the RB Corps looks like this

MVP, Guice (so we can be sure Guice is ready to go)

CT

Rookie
 

Sure, I get it. But I don't think your perceptions are the same as the majority of other fans. Are they the same perceptions of a large group of the fans? Certainly.

But again, it didn't move the needle like Reuben Foster's signing did. 

Besides...I don't think Danny cares about any of this so long as the NFL TV revenue checks keep cashing. So our discussion is probably moot anyway.

I agree with a lot of your post but about Barkley he had a 100 or more total yards in 12 of his first 13 games(94 yards) He was their offense and his offensive line was basically equal to ours post Scherff and Lauvao injuries.

[Thaiphoon]

12 minutes ago, rizzy said:

I agree with a lot of your post but about Barkley he had a 100 or more total yards in 12 of his first 13 games(94 yards) He was their offense and his offensive line was basically equal to ours post Scherff and Lauvao injuries.

Yes, because he was utilized as a receiver heavily. Peterson wasn't. Saquon was targeted 121 times last season. He caught like 90 balls. Peterson was only targeted 26 times. In fact, Peterson had a higher yards per catch than Saquon did.

I concede the point on receiving yards...but only to a point. As I said above, Peterson had a higher yards-per-catch than Barkley. If you target Peterson roughly 6x more (like Saquon was) I bet you get that extra 500 yards receiving that Saquon had on him.

I'm not asking who was a better RB. If I had to choose I take Saquon. I was only speaking to the point that @PARROTHEAD made about the rushing yards. And for a guy who is old and past his prime, he didn't do so bad.  In fact, he did better than many of the "youth at RB" that inhabit other teams with better OL.

Now, should be try to give him a ton of $$? NO WAY!! If you want him, you do a 2 year deal with a 3rd year option that comes in at $2-3m AAV or less. If he wants more than that? Bye bye.

[turtle28]

I know the guy hasn't done much Perine did flash some as a rookie and we do still have him. Perine had some fumble issues is camp/preseason and Guice tore his ACL, then we signed Peterson and Perine was an afterthought.

Perine still has talent though, maybe not feature back talent, but definitely good enough to share carries with Guice & CT should Peterson not re-sign.

Perine did have back to back 100-yard games as a rookie when given the chance to be the starter and given consistent carries. He also probably would've gone over 100 vs the Rams as a rookie if he started instead of Kelley; he looked good in the second half of that game.

[Skins212689]

9 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

I know the guy hasn't done much Perine did flash some as a rookie and we do still have him. Perine had some fumble issues is camp/preseason and Guice tore his ACL, then we signed Peterson and Perine was an afterthought.

Perine still has talent though, maybe not feature back talent, but definitely good enough to share carries with Guice & CT should Peterson not re-sign.

Perine did have back to back 100-yard games as a rookie when given the chance to be the starter and given consistent carries. He also probably would've gone over 100 vs the Rams as a rookie if he started instead of Kelley; he looked good in the second half of that game.

Seems like the staff have given up on him. The fact he didn't get a shot last year after Guice injury is a sign of that to me. He will be entering his 3rd season in this offense and if Gruden doesn't have confidence in him at the point of mini camp or training camp I don't see how he makes the team. This is not to say I wouldn't like to see him get a shot as a #2 RB. 

[PARROTHEAD]

Thai. I wasnt trying to reach "Webbies line". I was pointing out how the deteriorating fanbase has a direct effect in play we see on the field. Just look at the home games with the Giants and Eagles. And that was AFTER it already showed signs of having an effect on the players to the point they were openly venting. The franchise badly needs to rally and produce on the positive side. From Cousins and Scot departing, to AP and Foster signing, to cheerleader scandal, Mason threatening a minor and all else. All we do is get hammered, all the players see is the team getting hammered. And it effects the play we see out of them. We need strokes to get on the right track.

 

[PARROTHEAD]

5 minutes ago, Skins212689 said:

Seems like the staff have given up on him. The fact he didn't get a shot last year after Guice injury is a sign of that to me. He will be entering his 3rd season in this offense and if Gruden doesn't have confidence in him at the point of mini camp or training camp I don't see how he makes the team. This is not to say I wouldn't like to see him get a shot as a #2 RB. 

Hes so freakin slow. At 5'10. 233lbs is a lot of weight not to just get going, but to pivot and cut shifting all that mass would be daunting.

Id like to see him lose 20lbs and see what he can do then. Just so bulked up, a RB doesnt need to do 30 reps and carry so much mass so high on his body at that height.

[turtle28]

26 minutes ago, Skins212689 said:

Seems like the staff have given up on him. The fact he didn't get a shot last year after Guice injury is a sign of that to me. He will be entering his 3rd season in this offense and if Gruden doesn't have confidence in him at the point of mini camp or training camp I don't see how he makes the team. This is not to say I wouldn't like to see him get a shot as a #2 RB. 

I agree with that. He's definitely got to show more consistency than he has, he also has to improve his pass blocking, which us huge in Gruden’s eyes for his offense bc it's usually pass first.  

[turtle28]

20 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

Hes so freakin slow. At 5'10. 233lbs is a lot of weight not to just get going, but to pivot and cut shifting all that mass would be daunting.

Id like to see him lose 20lbs and see what he can do then. Just so bulked up, a RB doesnt need to do 30 reps and carry so much mass so high on his body at that height.

Yeah, he definitely would do well by shedding 10-20 pounds. I said that last year to, and wished he had done it. He needs to be quicker to the hole.

[naptownskinsfan]

26 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

Thai. I wasnt trying to reach "Webbies line". I was pointing out how the deteriorating fanbase has a direct effect in play we see on the field. Just look at the home games with the Giants and Eagles. And that was AFTER it already showed signs of having an effect on the players to the point they were openly venting. The franchise badly needs to rally and produce on the positive side. From Cousins and Scot departing, to AP and Foster signing, to cheerleader scandal, Mason threatening a minor and all else. All we do is get hammered, all the players see is the team getting hammered. And it effects the play we see out of them. We need strokes to get on the right track.

 

IMO, you should've left the acronym off about what MVP stands for.  

While I'm not a moderator here and know what's permissible for the owner here, I've owned and moderated my own sites before, with varying rules close to here.  Some latitude has to be given for some of the off-field/decisions made, such as the Reuben Foster signing, because that has a direct effect on the team.  It will cause some season ticket holders to cancel their tickets.  It caused some corporate sponsors to call Lafemina, and when Snyder and Allen brushed off his concerns, it cost Lafemina his desire to remain employed by the Redskins.  And so now the fanbase has even more reasons to be upset with Snyder and Allen.  

The line that gets crossed is when posters get heated and make those kind of off-the-cuff comments, or you have people who just want to hammer the team for a questionable decision.  We can hit a happy medium, and we proved that with a lot of the Lafemina discussion.  We also proved, both in the Redskins forum and in the NFL general discussion, that multiple threads about Reuben Foster couldn't be handled appropriately.  

Just bring up off-field concerns, we all know what you are referencing and we know it's all contributing to an extremely reduced season-ticket base.  Once the off-season gets into swing, we all know the Post will run stories about more long-time STH's cancelling tickets, and Ill keep everyone up to date with emails and mailings on how desperate they are to get people back.  

[Woz]

14 hours ago, turtle28 said:

I doubt they draft a RB in the early or mid rounds and I don’t think a late round RB would beat out Perine or Marshall. We’ll  probably keep 4 RBs again if we re-sign Peterson. Now, if we don’t re-sign Peterson I can see us drafting a 5th round back or so.

Given how little the coaching staff trusts Perine (as evidenced by how few carries/snaps he got) and how fragile Marshall is (makes Thompson look like an Ironman), I think it would be incredibly easy for a late round rookie to make the roster, regardless of Peterson.

Also, carrying four RBs was shown to be a very bad idea last year. Why would they repeat that mistake?

[Woz]

13 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

That's definitely a possibility. Perhaps we don't need him. So you're comfortable rolling in with the following?

1. Guice = unknown quantity at this point--> is he going to bounce back from surgery??
2. CT = Can't stay healthy. Can't rely on him
3. Marshall = where do I begin with this guy?
4. Some unproven rookie

To be honest - Guice, plus non-Peterson vet RB (equivalent to how Anderson was viewed before this past season (capable, but not jaw dropping)), plus rookie? Yeah, I would be okay with that.

Honestly, beyond Guice, I don't see any reason to keep any of our RBs. And Guice is solely due to his personality right now. Should he produce on the field, that's a guy you could rebuild the franchise's reputation around.