TL-TwoWinsAway Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 52 minutes ago, Iamcanadian said: Why would anybody care to know about the Lions during those years. They stunk then and continue to be a badly run organization which looks incapable of building a winning franchise. I know they had to pay him in order to keep him, but a 51-53 overall record hardly seems like he is worth that much money?? "I have no clue what actually happened during those years, but I'll continue to regurgitate stats without context because I think it proves a point." Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 20 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said: I didn't mention protection or running game, no. But Phillip Rivers suffers from the lack of both and has far more success without the excuse. The Patriots have rarely had a running game over the last decade. For example - can you name the starting HB in NE in 2012 without looking? I couldn't. My guess wasn't even on the team. Drew Brees doesn't have a running game and has had some poor offensive lines. And none of them had Calvin Johnson. So you're comparing Stafford to Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Philip Rivers. Got it. I can work with that. Antonio Gates. Pretty good player, that guy. Randy Moss? Wes Weller? And Brady himself is arguably the GOAT. I'm a fan of Brees and his play, but his supporting casts haven't been horrible. Colston was a great player. I'm not a fan of those teams, so I'm not able to recall exact rosters and the context behind their successes. But if that's your comparison, I'll happily slot Stafford behind those three players. Good company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 33 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said: For Pettigrew, he was top 10 in both receptions and receiving yards: Of course he was, and with a pretty bad YPC (career 9.9 YPC). Short passes were a substitute for our awful running game. Tons of short targets. Tons of yards. Very little YPC. You're overselling him here: he was an above average blocker and a big body as a short target in the passing game. (With inconsistent hands.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 39 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said: And as for mentioning "FIVE names over EIGHT seasons" - you're right. I did. How much more do you want? I covered the WR 1 position from 2009-2016 (Calvin Johnson 2009-2015, Golden Tate 2016). I covered the WR 2 position from 2010-2016 (Nate Burleson 2010-2013, Golden Tate 2014-2015, and I didn't mention Marvin Jones, but certainly he'd qualify in 2016). I covered the TE position from 2009-2016 (Pettigrew 2009-2013, Ebron 2014-2016). That's two WRs and a TE for all but one of Matt Stafford's seasons. That's a lot better than many quarterbacks get. Are you saying Stafford needs absolute perfection to be successful? You do realize how awfully weak that argument is, right? How Calvin missed eight games and was held back during numerous games as a result of lingering injuries. How Burleson missed 19 games during those four seasons. I'm glad you "covered" those positions in a flawed way with absolutely no context, but it just doesn't work. It's why those who actually watched the team over those years understood how subpar his pass-catchers were, in an offense without a running game, subpar protection and a mediocre defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 46 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said: From 2012-2016, Russell Wilson ranks far ahead of Stafford in completion percentage (12th to 21st), TD% (5th to 27th), INT% (8th to 13th), QBR (4th to 21st), YPA (1st to 25th), and ANY/A (5th to 19th). His offensive lines are routinely atrocious. And Doug Baldwin's a great story, but he and Jermaine Kearse aren't exactly Calvin Johnson and Golden Tate. Basically, what this boils down to, is that excuses are being made for why Stafford is not successful when other quarterbacks overcome the same sort of adversity. Some with less. But it's just an excuse masking the reality that Stafford is not at the level of quarterbacks he is now being paid higher than. And as I said in my original post, the flip side is it won't matter within the next three years, because most of those quarterbacks will once again be paid higher than him. Ouch. You actually went Russell Wilson. You brought the Seahawks into this. Elite defense, great running game. I can't believe you'd even pretend that there's a legitimate comparison to be made. If Stafford had such a team, I can only imagine what the conversation would be. Who the hell is arguing that Stafford is the best QB in the NFL?! Anyone? There isn't a single person that believes that Stafford is the best QB in the league. Just as Flacco wasn't the #1 QB when he signed his contract, nor was Carr the top QB two months ago, Stafford isn't now. You've proven throughout this discussion that you completely lack context or understanding of Stafford's career and the Lions' organization during those years. Which is fine. I don't know those things about another team, but I know those things about this one. I've watched every snap of his career multiple times. The fact that this organization has seen the playoffs three times over the past six years, despite their notable mismanagement, is a testament to his ability. Stats won't tell you that. Games will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y2lamanaki Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 3 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: So you're comparing Stafford to Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Philip Rivers. Got it. I can work with that. Antonio Gates. Pretty good player, that guy. Randy Moss? Wes Weller? And Brady himself is arguably the GOAT. I'm a fan of Brees and his play, but his supporting casts haven't been horrible. Colston was a great player. I'm not a fan of those teams, so I'm not able to recall exact rosters and the context behind their successes. But if that's your comparison, I'll happily slot Stafford behind those three players. Good company. This is the definition of a straw man argument. You said specifically that Stafford didn't have a supporting cast because he lacked an offensive line and run game. Rivers lacks an offensive line and run game, and Calvin Johnson >>>>>> Antonio Gates from 2009-2015 (or, really any time during Gates' incredible career). So Stafford has more of a supporting cast than Rivers does, and Stafford is still FAR BELOW Rivers' numbers as evidenced in my original post. Brady had Moss for 1.25 years during this conversation and after Welker he's still produced with far inferior receivers than Stafford had. Colston was a good receiver, but not a great one. Great players don't go their entire careers without a Pro Bowl trip. And once again - during the 2009-2016 time period, he broke 1100 yards twice. Not the same thing as Calvin Johnson. The point here is you seem to be arguing that Stafford would be elite (or is elite) if he had a run game and offensive line, and those three QBs are elite without some of those pieces, and certainly without a Calvin Johnson. In other words - it's not necessary. And nobody is slotting Stafford behind those three, I assure you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y2lamanaki Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 3 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: Of course he was, and with a pretty bad YPC (career 9.9 YPC). Short passes were a substitute for our awful running game. Tons of short targets. Tons of yards. Very little YPC. You're overselling him here: he was an above average blocker and a big body as a short target in the passing game. (With inconsistent hands.) I'm not overselling him. The definition of 'prolific' is - "present in large numbers or quantities; plentiful." I called him the 10th most prolific tight end in that time frame, meaning he had the 10th largest numbers in that time frame. In that time frame, his numbers are outdone by only 9 players. Whether short or long, it doesn't change the fact that it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y2lamanaki Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 3 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: You do realize how awfully weak that argument is, right? How Calvin missed eight games and was held back during numerous games as a result of lingering injuries. How Burleson missed 19 games during those four seasons. I'm glad you "covered" those positions in a flawed way with absolutely no context, but it just doesn't work. It's why those who actually watched the team over those years understood how subpar his pass-catchers were, in an offense without a running game, subpar protection and a mediocre defense. My mistake. I was unaware that Calvin Johnson missing eight games over seven seasons was a giant contributor in Stafford's low rankings in all of those previously discussed metrics. It's odd, because Wes Welker missed 8 games for his QBs over that time, and they didn't seem to suffer. And of course, he had to play through nagging injuries. Julio Jones missed 17 games in this time span, and Matt Ryan still has better numbers, too. It's odd how much this affected Stafford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
y2lamanaki Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 3 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: Ouch. You actually went Russell Wilson. You brought the Seahawks into this. Elite defense, great running game. I can't believe you'd even pretend that there's a legitimate comparison to be made. If Stafford had such a team, I can only imagine what the conversation would be. Who the hell is arguing that Stafford is the best QB in the NFL?! Anyone? There isn't a single person that believes that Stafford is the best QB in the league. Just as Flacco wasn't the #1 QB when he signed his contract, nor was Carr the top QB two months ago, Stafford isn't now. You've proven throughout this discussion that you completely lack context or understanding of Stafford's career and the Lions' organization during those years. Which is fine. I don't know those things about another team, but I know those things about this one. I've watched every snap of his career multiple times. The fact that this organization has seen the playoffs three times over the past six years, despite their notable mismanagement, is a testament to his ability. Stats won't tell you that. Games will. Wait...an elite defense caused Russell Wilson's completion percentage and quarterback rating to increase? How does that work? And what's up with Eli, then? Because his defense was ranked second last year, but he was ranked 22nd in QBR. I don't know who's arguing that Stafford is the best QB in the NFL, but some fans of Matt Stafford seem to be very inclined to argue that his numbers ranking him closer to the bottom of the quarterback hierarchy than the top are an illusion caused by every excuse in the book but Matt Stafford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 1 hour ago, y2lamanaki said: Wait...an elite defense caused Russell Wilson's completion percentage and quarterback rating to increase? How does that work? And what's up with Eli, then? Because his defense was ranked second last year, but he was ranked 22nd in QBR. I don't know who's arguing that Stafford is the best QB in the NFL, but some fans of Matt Stafford seem to be very inclined to argue that his numbers ranking him closer to the bottom of the quarterback hierarchy than the top are an illusion caused by every excuse in the book but Matt Stafford. How does an elite defense and strong running game increase a QBs rating? Playing with a lead or in close games allows the offense to remain balanced, forcing the defense to respect both the run and pass. Surely you can understand how playing in those circumstances makes it easier for the passing offense to be successful, and how having to force passes in must-pass situations with a sizable deficit does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 1 hour ago, y2lamanaki said: My mistake. I was unaware that Calvin Johnson missing eight games over seven seasons was a giant contributor in Stafford's low rankings in all of those previously discussed metrics. It's odd, because Wes Welker missed 8 games for his QBs over that time, and they didn't seem to suffer. And of course, he had to play through nagging injuries. Julio Jones missed 17 games in this time span, and Matt Ryan still has better numbers, too. It's odd how much this affected Stafford. You ignored two of the main points there: 1) Calvin was often held back in games during his career due to injury, sometimes being relegated to playing as a 'decoy', and 2) your Burleson mention was terrible. But, yes, Tom Brady has undeniably outperformed Stafford. Matt Ryan has at points throughout his career as well, although the gap is nowhere near as large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagahide13 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Actually, some of us are just saying that you're cherry picking stats and lacking context. Which is accurate. When I mentioned Stafford's volume stats, which are among the greatest to have ever played in the NFL, the point was completely ignored. Context. When one is forced to throw 50 times a game with no defense or running game, one's efficiency stats tend to suffer. in 2015 he completed 67% for 4262 yards, 32 TDs and 13 INT. in 2016, prior to dislocating and tearing the ligaments in a finger on his throwing hand, he was completing 67% of his passes for 21 TD and 5 INT. This is a really, really good player that's playing really, really good football right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDOG_det Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Stafford has 21 career wins with a defense that finished worse than average Tom Brady has 20 career wins with a defense that finished worse than average Stafford > Brady #QBWinz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 1 hour ago, y2lamanaki said: I'm not overselling him. The definition of 'prolific' is - "present in large numbers or quantities; plentiful." I called him the 10th most prolific tight end in that time frame, meaning he had the 10th largest numbers in that time frame. In that time frame, his numbers are outdone by only 9 players. Whether short or long, it doesn't change the fact that it happened. Alright. Using that same questionable rationale, Stafford has been one of the most prolific QBs in the NFL since 2011 because he has had some of the most passing yards in the league during that time. Surely you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDOG_det Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 The one season in Matthew Stafford's career in which the Detroit Lions had a defense that finished in the top 1/3 of the league, the Detroit Lions finished 11-5. They lost to the Dallas Cowboys 20-24 in the playoffs despite multiple controversial calls that went against the Detroit Lions (some of which led to clarifications of the rules the following season). But it's Stafford's fault they have only won 5 games against teams that finished the regular season above .500 #QBWinz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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