Carson Wentz... or this haul?

[BAConrad]

21 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

"But dude. He's played 4.5 games. Won 2. Wentz has played 21 games. And has won 11 of them. How can you possibly say that Watson has proven "just as much"??"

Thats the point they both haven't proven anything of note to this point other than having good 2017 seasons so far. However you tried to use wins as a metric of success in this example. My point in the previous post was to show how asinine that is.

Wow you spouted off a couple stats to try to twist the narrative in your favor what a comprehensive break down thank you for the enlightening post..

Bye buddy don't let the door hit you on the way out..

I brought up games played and won to address your statement about being PROVEN. HOW ARE YOU NOT GETTING THIS??? Seriously.

 

"However you tried to use wins as a metric of success in this example. My point in the previous post was to show how asinine that is." -You.

 

 

So wait.......QBs wins dont have anything to do with their success?  

And we were talking about being proven. Not the same thing. 

See what you did there??? You not only don't even know what you're actually arguing and in the mean time, you continued to make another stupid statement.  Bravo my friend. You are awesome.

 

I was strictly bringing up games played and games won to address your moronic statement that Watson has proven just as much as Wentz. I'm not even saying that I'm 100% right or I know so much blah blah. All I'm doing is proving you wrong and addressing your posts.

 

I get that Every one deserves an opinion. But that doesn't mean their opinion can't be moronic to the point of delusion. 

[BAConrad]

And Tyler....Way to come back at me with such a great post. The best part was when you had absolutely zero response to my post breaking down and comparing the two QBs, and said this:

 

"Wow  you spouted off a couple stats to try to twist the narrative in your favor what a comprehensive break down thank you for the enlightening post"

 

[tyler735]

14 minutes ago, BAConrad said:

I brought up games played and won to address your statement about being PROVEN. HOW ARE YOU NOT GETTING THIS??? Seriously.

 

"However you tried to use wins as a metric of success in this example. My point in the previous post was to show how asinine that is." -You.

 

 

So wait.......QBs wins dont have anything to do with their success?  

And we were talking about being proven. Not the same thing. 

See what you did there??? You not only don't even know what you're actually arguing and in the mean time, you continued to make another stupid statement.  Bravo my friend. You are awesome.

 

I was strictly bringing up games played and games won to address your moronic statement that Watson has proven just as much as Wentz. I'm not even saying that I'm 100% right or I know so much blah blah. All I'm doing is proving you wrong and addressing your posts.

 

I get that Every one deserves an opinion. But that doesn't mean their opinion can't be moronic to the point of delusion. 

If being "proven" to you means playing in games regardless of whether you are playing good/bad then yes Wentz is more "proven" then Watson as he had several bad games last season which would make him more "proven" if that is your argument, which is obviously a crap argument. However you randomly added games played plus attached wins to them in the initial post, which could also be taken as his team has more wins than Watson, so he must be more "proven". Either way it's a flawed argument on your end as it clearly doesn't carry much weight as Wentz didn't prove anything more than being an average rookie QB last season. Watson has shown to be a good QB so far as a rookie and could completely suck the remainder of the year...BUT...At this time, Wentz could very well do the same thing as he has PROVEN nothing so far in his NFL career other than put together a similar string of games that Watson has this year where they both have played really well so far, but have PROVEN nothing over a prolonged duration of time.

Proving me wrong...You haven't done crap..

Agreed everyone does get an opinion and you have proven they can be delusional and moronic. Well played..

[tyler735]

17 minutes ago, BAConrad said:

And Tyler....Way to come back at me with such a great post. The best part was when you had absolutely zero response to my post breaking down and comparing the two QBs, and said this:

 

"Wow  you spouted off a couple stats to try to twist the narrative in your favor what a comprehensive break down thank you for the enlightening post"

 

Again awesome breakdown you cited a couple stats and twisted narrative. Cool story 10/10 would recommend..

[BAConrad]

A couple stats lol

[tyler735]

"Breaking down" Wentz and Winston lol

[Blahstoise]

44 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

"Breaking down" Wentz and Winston lol

To be fair to Mr Conrad of the BA variety......you did say this......

He would have been the 3rd best rookie QB in 2015 behind Mariota and Winston.

Then he provided an analysis breakdown of many a stat, that showed Winston and Wentz were extremely comparable in a number of areas. which you rebute with...

1 hour ago, tyler735 said:

Again awesome breakdown you cited a couple stats and twisted narrative. Cool story 10/10 would recommend..

You need to take the hit on this one, admit he had you on that salient point.

 

As to Carson not having a good rookie year, I agree in some ways. A lot of that factors in to missing our best offensive lineman for the majority of the season, having a WR corp that would rank bottom 3 in the league and a running game led by Ryan Mathews. But, he was an average QB in that sense.

However, he was a good rookie QB in other ways. His leadership was phenomenal for a rookie, his preparation and pre-snap adjustments were something very few, if any Rookie QB's could make. On a number of occasions he bounced back from multiple early interceptions in a game and just brushed them off. That's something you can't see on highlights.

So, I'd say Carson had a good to solid, like BAConrad suggests.

[tyler735]

1 hour ago, Blahman88 said:

To be fair to Mr Conrad of the BA variety......you did say this......

Then he provided an analysis breakdown of many a stat, that showed Winston and Wentz were extremely comparable in a number of areas. which you rebute with...

You need to take the hit on this one, admit he had you on that salient point.

 

 

"2015 Jameis: 58.3% comp (312/535) 4042 yards 22 TD 15 INT

7.6 y/a 4.8 TD% And 2.8 INT% 

record 6-10

2016 Wentz: 62.4% comp (379/607) 3782 yards 16 TD 14 INT

6.2 y/a 2.6 TD% And 2.3 INT%

record 7-9"

At face value Jameis has way less attempts, more yards/yards per attempt, and a higher touchdown total/much higher touchdown percentage. Just looking at stats without digging deeper Jameis clearly has the upper hand here.

 

"And let's not forget about the supporting cast. Don't wanna go into to much detail but heres some stats for you:

In 2015, Doug Martin ran for 1,402 yards with 6 TDs and a 4.9 ypc 

Mike Evans led the team with 74 catches for 1200 yards and 3 TDs (his worst season IMO due somewhat to Winstons wildly inconsistent throws to him, trying to force the ball to him 148 times)

In 2016, Ryan Mathews ran for 668 yards for 8 TDs and a 4.3 ypc. That was Carson's leading rusher. 

Zach Ertz, our TE, was our best receiver. He had a nice year with 78 catches for 816 yards and 4 TDs."

An argument could be made that Jameis had better weapons to throw to, BUT Zach Ertz is a very good TE that had multiple quality seasons before Wentz arrived in Philly. Jordan Matthews was essentially a 1,000 yard receiver with 8 touchdowns in 2015, his numbers dipped last year to the worst of his career (his worst season IMO due somewhat to Wentz wildly inconsistent throws to him). Vincent Jackson was mentioned, but he had about 500 yards and clearly wasn't the Vincent Jackson from years prior, he retired soon after as he was well past his prime. So really outside of Evans there wasn't all that much there in the receiving game for Winston to throw to.

Regarding Doug Martin, he had a good year rushing no doubt in 2015...HOWEVER, as mentioned Mathews ran for 668 yards, 8 touchdowns (more than Martin), and 4.3 ypc. Then a guy that was somehow missed in the previous post (that I am very familiar with being a Saints fan) by the name of Darren Sproles. He managed 438 yards, 2 touchdowns, and 4.7 ypc...Oh yeah and he is pretty commonly known as one of the best receiving RB's to ever play the game, which must be nice for a rookie QB, he also added 427 receiving yards, and 2 touchdowns through the air (In other words just about as good of receiving stats as Vincent Jackson had in 2015 without even taking into account his rushing stats). The Eagles still had a total of 1,813 rushing yards last season with a total ypc of 4.1, so they had effective runners even if it was by committee. Essentially we aren't talking about a team with no supporting cast to help out a rookie QB, there were players at WR, TE, and RB to help Wentz.  

 

"But it's hard to just take these stats at face value. Also consider that Winston had superior pass protection, a legit #1 WR AND legit #2 in VJ, and a top 5 run game. While Carson's best weapons were Ertz and Mathews, and an inferior run game. 

oddly, each QB scored an average of 1.85 pts per drive their rookie seasons.

And to compare their respective strength of schedules those years?"

 

As mentioned above Wentz had enough weapons in both the passing and receiving game where it isn't some crazy mismatch between him and Jameis. VJ is mentioned here again, but that is clearly flawed as he was not good in 2015 as he's past his prime. AND yet again Sproles was somehow missed. Don't worry I added him.

That's good that they averaged a total of 1.85 pts per drive, but Winston still managed more touchdowns on far fewer passing attempts and threw for a much higher touchdown percentage. I'd imagine that Eagles run game which accounted for 16 touchdowns had something to do with this, compared to the 12 rushing touchdowns the Bucs had in 2015.

As for Offensive Lines I'll just leave this here...

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season Eagles ranked 8th last season

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season Bucs ranked 23rd in 2015

Wentz likely had a harder schedule, but given that Winston had a worse Oline and better stats, I'm pretty content in my original statement that Winston was the better rookie of the 2.

 

"My point is, Carson's rookie year cannot be judged just by his yards and TD-INT ratio. Which is what you clearly do."

Well this is awkward.. 

Quote

As to Carson not having a good rookie year, I agree in some ways. A lot of that factors in to missing our best offensive lineman for the majority of the season, having a WR corp that would rank bottom 3 in the league and a running game led by Ryan Mathews. But, he was an average QB in that sense.

However, he was a good rookie QB in other ways. His leadership was phenomenal for a rookie, his preparation and pre-snap adjustments were something very few, if any Rookie QB's could make. On a number of occasions he bounced back from multiple early interceptions in a game and just brushed them off. That's something you can't see on highlights.

So, I'd say Carson had a good to solid, like BAConrad suggests.

Sure Carson lost his best OLineman for some time and that isn't ever ideal, but they as a unit were still quite good from a ranking standpoint especially compared to what many other rookie QB's that come into the league deal with. As for the WR's: Ertz, Mathews, and Sproles is a solid trio of weapons and aren't nearly as bad as some rookie QB's have had to endure. 

Fair enough regarding leadership and pre-snap adjustments those are certainly encouraging things for a rookie QB.

Agree to disagree on their rookie season it's really semantics to say average/solid in my eyes, so I won't push that any further

I will say I appreciate seeing a much more level headed response from an Eagles fan and makes further discussion much easier.

[Scalamania]

What is even being debated in this thread at this point? 

[GreenMean69]

52 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

 

"2015 Jameis: 58.3% comp (312/535) 4042 yards 22 TD 15 INT

7.6 y/a 4.8 TD% And 2.8 INT% 

record 6-10

2016 Wentz: 62.4% comp (379/607) 3782 yards 16 TD 14 INT

6.2 y/a 2.6 TD% And 2.3 INT%

record 7-9"

At face value Jameis has way less attempts, more yards/yards per attempt, and a higher touchdown total/much higher touchdown percentage. Just looking at stats without digging deeper Jameis clearly has the upper hand here.

 

"And let's not forget about the supporting cast. Don't wanna go into to much detail but heres some stats for you:

In 2015, Doug Martin ran for 1,402 yards with 6 TDs and a 4.9 ypc 

Mike Evans led the team with 74 catches for 1200 yards and 3 TDs (his worst season IMO due somewhat to Winstons wildly inconsistent throws to him, trying to force the ball to him 148 times)

In 2016, Ryan Mathews ran for 668 yards for 8 TDs and a 4.3 ypc. That was Carson's leading rusher. 

Zach Ertz, our TE, was our best receiver. He had a nice year with 78 catches for 816 yards and 4 TDs."

An argument could be made that Jameis had better weapons to throw to, BUT Zach Ertz is a very good TE that had multiple quality seasons before Wentz arrived in Philly. Jordan Matthews was essentially a 1,000 yard receiver with 8 touchdowns in 2015, his numbers dipped last year to the worst of his career (his worst season IMO due somewhat to Wentz wildly inconsistent throws to him). Vincent Jackson was mentioned, but he had about 500 yards and clearly wasn't the Vincent Jackson from years prior, he retired soon after as he was well past his prime. So really outside of Evans there wasn't all that much there in the receiving game for Winston to throw to.

Regarding Doug Martin, he had a good year rushing no doubt in 2015...HOWEVER, as mentioned Mathews ran for 668 yards, 8 touchdowns (more than Martin), and 4.3 ypc. Then a guy that was somehow missed in the previous post (that I am very familiar with being a Saints fan) by the name of Darren Sproles. He managed 438 yards, 2 touchdowns, and 4.7 ypc...Oh yeah and he is pretty commonly known as one of the best receiving RB's to ever play the game, which must be nice for a rookie QB, he also added 427 receiving yards, and 2 touchdowns through the air (In other words just about as good of receiving stats as Vincent Jackson had in 2015 without even taking into account his rushing stats). The Eagles still had a total of 1,813 rushing yards last season with a total ypc of 4.1, so they had effective runners even if it was by committee. Essentially we aren't talking about a team with no supporting cast to help out a rookie QB, there were players at WR, TE, and RB to help Wentz.  

 

"But it's hard to just take these stats at face value. Also consider that Winston had superior pass protection, a legit #1 WR AND legit #2 in VJ, and a top 5 run game. While Carson's best weapons were Ertz and Mathews, and an inferior run game. 

oddly, each QB scored an average of 1.85 pts per drive their rookie seasons.

And to compare their respective strength of schedules those years?"

 

As mentioned above Wentz had enough weapons in both the passing and receiving game where it isn't some crazy mismatch between him and Jameis. VJ is mentioned here again, but that is clearly flawed as he was not good in 2015 as he's past his prime. AND yet again Sproles was somehow missed. Don't worry I added him.

That's good that they averaged a total of 1.85 pts per drive, but Winston still managed more touchdowns on far fewer passing attempts and threw for a much higher touchdown percentage. I'd imagine that Eagles run game which accounted for 16 touchdowns had something to do with this, compared to the 12 rushing touchdowns the Bucs had in 2015.

As for Offensive Lines I'll just leave this here...

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season Eagles ranked 8th last season

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-this-season Bucs ranked 23rd in 2015

Wentz likely had a harder schedule, but given that Winston had a worse Oline and better stats, I'm pretty content in my original statement that Winston was the better rookie of the 2.

 

"My point is, Carson's rookie year cannot be judged just by his yards and TD-INT ratio. Which is what you clearly do."

Well this is awkward.. 

Sure Carson lost his best OLineman for some time and that isn't ever ideal, but they as a unit were still quite good from a ranking standpoint especially compared to what many other rookie QB's that come into the league deal with. As for the WR's: Ertz, Mathews, and Sproles is a solid trio of weapons and aren't nearly as bad as some rookie QB's have had to endure. 

Fair enough regarding leadership and pre-snap adjustments those are certainly encouraging things for a rookie QB.

Agree to disagree on their rookie season it's really semantics to say average/solid in my eyes, so I won't push that any further

I will say I appreciate seeing a much more level headed response from an Eagles fan and makes further discussion much easier.

 

You like to skip the Fact the Wentz on top of being a rookie ,  The rest of the team was also learning a new system as we had a Rookie Head coach . Eagle talent level was decimated by chip Kelly  .... Eagles had a bunch or injuries   and ALL the players had been infected with the dropsies  Then there is Also Lane Johnson  was suspended for 10 games .   Lane made a huge difference for Wentz ...  Why dont you look up the stats for Carson  with games Lane played Vs lane not playing . The difference is night and day .  Carson  was doing great things as a rookie ... the way he commanded the team i the huddle and at the line , calling audibles   , his pocket presence . Thel ist can go on and on ... you seen things in Carson that you would expect to see in 4 + year vets  

 

You also did not say anything  about Browns wasting Draft picks.    Wentz cost the Eagles a 1st , 2nd and 3rd . They got back 4th/5th conditional .  Sicne browns like to add in picks they used form Eagles to trade back we can count the 1st we got from Bradford.  So Eagles spent a 2nd and 3rd  to get #2 overall pick and their Franchise QB . 

Browns have  already spent a 2nd and 3rd round pick on QBs    and still dont have their guy it seems ... SO how many more is it going to take until they find it ?   What are Brown going to do When all there players are up for new contracts at same time  since  there are such a young team as you liek to point out ?

[Blahstoise]

Fair enough, but I'll add a few points regarding the weapons Wentz had.

Until this year, Ertz has only shown up in December, he has never been as consistent as he has been so far this year, perhaps now he has a QB he is in sync with, the talent has always been there.

WR wise, Matthews was solid but nothing more, then you have Agholor (trash last year), Dorial Green-Beckham, Bryce Treggs.....honestly I can't remember the other guys. When you compare it to other recent Rookie QB's, it's poop. Out of prime VJ is still better than everything we had outside Matthews.

RB's, I'll concede Darren Sproles is a gem and helped lower the burden on the WR, but when the deep ball is pretty much unavailable due to incompetent WR, your yardage will be lowered, as will be the number of TD's/

OL wise, Lane Johnson missing was huge, I will never take PPF as gospel. Jason Kelce was appalling, our interior was poor. When we had Lane we won, when didn't we lost.

But I come to a similar conclusion to yourself in many ways, I think from watching Carson we have a leader, I'll take him over the haul.

[WeaponX]

Corey Coleman - this is his second season. He's played in 12 games. 39 receptions, 475 receiving yards, 4 receiving TDs. 
Shon Coleman - seems like he has potential as a starter at OT
Deshone Kizer - benched for Kevin Hogan. Enough said.
Derrick Kindred - potential to be a solid starting safety.
Jabrill Peppers - tons of potential but raw.

 

That's not exactly a "haul".

I'll take a franchise QB over that "haul" every single day. And you'd think Browns fans would as well considering that their franchise has been looking for a QB for decades.

 

[WeaponX]

As I'm sure most Browns fans know from experience, QB is arguably the most important position in all of sports. 

Comparing the situations, it would be like asking an Eagles fan:

Would you rather have Carson Wentz or Hal Vaitai, Rodney McLeod, Nelson Agholor, a developmental QB benched for Kevin Hogan, and Derek Barnett. 

I would take Wentz every single time. 

[WeaponX]

Also, the only way that "haul" is more valuable than Wentz is if that "haul" has helped form a Browns roster that is so good that it is only missing a QB. 

The Browns do not fit that description one bit. 

They aren't a team that has talent but is being held back by not having a QB. 

They're just horribly mismanaged with minimal talent and also happen to not have a QB.

[brazilianguy]

I think the Browns made good decisions by trying to trade down for picks. They needed to build a team and stuff.

I don't like the picks they made, though. They should go all out on defense and OL in 2016 draft. 4 WR picks, smh.

They will have their chance on QB, Wentz might be very good someday but he wasn't exactly the most promising QB prospect. There are at least 3 QBs this seasons with better college tape than Wentz had in 2016.