Carson Wentz... or this haul?

[BAConrad]

1 hour ago, brazilianguy said:

I think the Browns made good decisions by trying to trade down for picks. They needed to build a team and stuff.

I don't like the picks they made, though. They should go all out on defense and OL in 2016 draft. 4 WR picks, smh.

They will have their chance on QB, Wentz might be very good someday but he wasn't exactly the most promising QB prospect. There are at least 3 QBs this seasons with better college tape than Wentz had in 2016.

You build a team by acquiring a quarterback. Until you have a QB, you aren't winning any playoff games. 

 

The Texans tried to win without investing a high pick in a QB. They couldn't. And look what they did. TRADED UP FOR A QB. Why? Because they were a team good enough not to pick in the top 5 or even 10 of the draft. You can't just hope a QB falls into your lap so they traded up to get one. 

 

And another thing....what about when this "talent" the Browns hypothetically acquire starts to get older and they still don't have a QB? 

 

Again, using Houston as an example...They wasted JJ Watts prime (3 time DPOY and some of the most dominant defensive play ever) because of their failure to draft a QB, and now that they finally have one, hes almost 30 and is now out for the season for the 2nd time in a row. 

 

You build your team around your quarterback. You draft him when you have the chance. 

 

Does anyone remember the reported offer that the Titans got from Chip Kelly and the Eagles for the pick that was uses to take Mariota? It was substantially better than what Cleveland got from us. And I'm so glad Tennessee was smart and stayed put. 

 

 

As for this class compared to last years....i can't speculate too much. All 3 top prospects are juniors. There's a chance 2 of them stay in school. What if that happens and the Browns are again stuck without a QB of the future.  

 

And I'm not sold on any of them being better than Carson either. Darnold , IMO, looks like a smaller and  worse version of Andrew Luck.  

 

Though Rosen and Allen could be simply because I haven't watched much at all of either. Just a small amount of Rosen. 

 

 

And the Eagles didn't draft Carson based off of his college tape FYI. Out scouting department did an excellent job of evaluating him privately and publicly during the draft process. Our FO fell in love. And so far what we were told about Wentz when we took him looks to be true so far. He's raw still. Let's not forget that he wasn't even supposed to start last year at all. That wasn't the plan. 

 

And at the time, I HATED the move. I was angry we invested that much in a ginger QB with less than a season of tape from North Dakota State. And I am so happy that I was wrong.  

 

When you watch him play now, it's easy to see why former (and current) QBs and coaches love the guy. Playing QB and being successful for a long time is so much more mental. It's about reading defenses pre snap and adjusting. And knowing when to get rid of the ball or when not to. And being able to extend plays when things break down and make a play with your arm. And throwing your guys open. Wentz has all of those qualities. Of course he has weaknesses. But, like other great QBs, he's shown that he can work on those issues and improve those areas of his game where he is lacking. Like his footwork And down field accuracy, both of which he has improved upon tremendously.

 

And what has finally won me over with him this year is his efficiency in 3rd downs. Whether it's 3 yards or 11, for the first time in my adult life, Im actually confident that we are going to get the 1st.  

 

He's the best QB on 3rd down by a decent margin. The next best two? Brady and Rodgers. 

 

 

[Thomas5737]

Lets not pretend that when you draft a Carson Wentz, Jared Goff, Sam Bradford, Alex Smith, Jamarcus Russell, Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf etc... that you are getting a great QB. You are getting a potential franchise QB but there are no guarantees. There is a difference between knowing what you are getting and just projecting a QB to be very good. When the Browns traded the #2 pick, in which they weren't a fan of Wentz anyway so that wouldn't have likely been the pick had they not traded down anyway, they weren't getting anything that was proven.

Heck, the Browns may have draft Danny Shelton at #2 which we ended up with anyway.

[brazilianguy]

1 hour ago, BAConrad said:

You build a team by acquiring a quarterback. Until you have a QB, you aren't winning any playoff games. 

 

The Texans tried to win without investing a high pick in a QB. They couldn't. And look what they did. TRADED UP FOR A QB. Why? Because they were a team good enough not to pick in the top 5 or even 10 of the draft. You can't just hope a QB falls into your lap so they traded up to get one. 

 

And another thing....what about when this "talent" the Browns hypothetically acquire starts to get older and they still don't have a QB? 

 

Again, using Houston as an example...They wasted JJ Watts prime (3 time DPOY and some of the most dominant defensive play ever) because of their failure to draft a QB, and now that they finally have one, hes almost 30 and is now out for the season for the 2nd time in a row. 

 

You build your team around your quarterback. You draft him when you have the chance. 

 

Does anyone remember the reported offer that the Titans got from Chip Kelly and the Eagles for the pick that was uses to take Mariota? It was substantially better than what Cleveland got from us. And I'm so glad Tennessee was smart and stayed put. 

 

 

As for this class compared to last years....i can't speculate too much. All 3 top prospects are juniors. There's a chance 2 of them stay in school. What if that happens and the Browns are again stuck without a QB of the future.  

 

And I'm not sold on any of them being better than Carson either. Darnold , IMO, looks like a smaller and  worse version of Andrew Luck.  

 

Though Rosen and Allen could be simply because I haven't watched much at all of either. Just a small amount of Rosen. 

 

 

And the Eagles didn't draft Carson based off of his college tape FYI. Out scouting department did an excellent job of evaluating him privately and publicly during the draft process. Our FO fell in love. And so far what we were told about Wentz when we took him looks to be true so far. He's raw still. Let's not forget that he wasn't even supposed to start last year at all. That wasn't the plan. 

 

And at the time, I HATED the move. I was angry we invested that much in a ginger QB with less than a season of tape from North Dakota State. And I am so happy that I was wrong.  

 

When you watch him play now, it's easy to see why former (and current) QBs and coaches love the guy. Playing QB and being successful for a long time is so much more mental. It's about reading defenses pre snap and adjusting. And knowing when to get rid of the ball or when not to. And being able to extend plays when things break down and make a play with your arm. And throwing your guys open. Wentz has all of those qualities. Of course he has weaknesses. But, like other great QBs, he's shown that he can work on those issues and improve those areas of his game where he is lacking. Like his footwork And down field accuracy, both of which he has improved upon tremendously.

 

And what has finally won me over with him this year is his efficiency in 3rd downs. Whether it's 3 yards or 11, for the first time in my adult life, Im actually confident that we are going to get the 1st.  

 

He's the best QB on 3rd down by a decent margin. The next best two? Brady and Rodgers. 

 

 

They didn't feel Wentz was the guy. Nor Goff. Many felt that those two weren't great QB prospects too. There's always luck playing with players realizing potential and stuff and neither were can't miss prospects and I dont blame the Browns for not taking their shots on Wentz or Goff.

It's not like Browns traded down from Andrew Luck in 2012

[EaglesPeteC]

Some of these posts are getting almost as long as the list of Browns starting QB's since 1999. 

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

3 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Lets not pretend that when you draft a Carson Wentz, Jared Goff, Sam Bradford, Alex Smith, Jamarcus Russell, Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf etc... that you are getting a great QB. You are getting a potential franchise QB but there are no guarantees. There is a difference between knowing what you are getting and just projecting a QB to be very good. When the Browns traded the #2 pick, in which they weren't a fan of Wentz anyway so that wouldn't have likely been the pick had they not traded down anyway, they weren't getting anything that was proven.

Heck, the Browns may have draft Danny Shelton at #2 which we ended up with anyway.

Completely fair argument, but hindsight is 20/20. Maybe they were a fan of Goff and not Wentz, or maybe they didn't like either. That said, you need a QB to win in this league, and it is looking really likely that Wentz will at least be playing in Philly for 5 years and probably longer barring a catastrophe or a complete meltdown. 

Also, this post was literally meant to ask which would you rather have, the dubbed "haul" or Wentz so that logic really doesn't apply too well here.

[Thomas5737]

1 minute ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Completely fair argument, but hindsight is 20/20. Maybe they were a fan of Goff and not Wentz, or maybe they didn't like either. That said, you need a QB to win in this league, and it is looking really likely that Wentz will at least be playing in Philly for 5 years and probably longer barring a catastrophe or a complete meltdown. 

Also, this post was literally meant to ask which would you rather have, the dubbed "haul" or Wentz so that logic really doesn't apply too well here.

It was reported that they loved Goff but not Wentz.

Wentz would fit what Hue likes from his quarterbacks so it might have worked out if they didn't make the trade. There are still picks remaining from what they turned the trade down into (Eagles 2nd and Texans 1st next year) but right now Wentz looks better than the haul which is highlighted by Kizer (dunno, rough start), Shon Coleman (Starting RT playing eh), Corey Coleman (Our #1 but injured more often than not), Peppers (probably a good player), Kindred (starting, might be an average type safety) and etc.. Wentz is certainly helping the Eagles more than those guys are helping the Browns after 5 games.

[Shady Slim]

i'm wondering (and this has probably been posed), if we were to give the browns wentz and give philly the haul would the browns be better off? i think not

which is why to me the browns did the right thing even if it means passing on a potential guy who could be a franchise QB - bc for all we know wentz in cleveland can't shine with a poor supporting cast and gets 2016 andrew lucked

[BLick12]

7 hours ago, Shady Slim said:

i'm wondering (and this has probably been posed), if we were to give the browns wentz and give philly the haul would the browns be better off? i think not

which is why to me the browns did the right thing even if it means passing on a potential guy who could be a franchise QB - bc for all we know wentz in cleveland can't shine with a poor supporting cast and gets 2016 andrew lucked

I'm inclined to agree, which is why I think it was a win/win for both teams.  Eagles needed a potential franchise QB, Browns needed a foundation.

[BAConrad]

38 minutes ago, BLick12 said:

I'm inclined to agree, which is why I think it was a win/win for both teams.  Eagles needed a potential franchise QB, Browns needed a foundation.

But that's the thing....I don't see anything close to a foundation when I look at the players they've gotten from the trade. 

 

A foundation would be a star player at a Premium position (edge rusher, OT, or corner) and then multiple very good starters. 

 

Did they get a blue chip prospect who could be a star player? No. Very likely Jabrill Peppers, who is really the only guy you can argue would fit that bill, isn't going to be an elite player. Good? Maybe.

 

At best they have, a few years from now, maybe a couple good starters in Coleman and Peppers and then role players and a back up QB

 

Sorry but Im not sold on that being a foundation. 

 

 

And you re kidding yourself if you don't think that Wentz would make the Browns a significantly better team. Look what Hogan did when Kizer was benched.  17/19 with 2 TDs.  He threw a stupid interception, But the only reason the Browns were in that game was because Hogan was able to come in and give them at least mediocre QB play. 

 

Wentz behind their OL with those runnningbacks would at least give them a chance every week. All that offense is missing is a QB and WRs.  

[MWil23]

16 minutes ago, BAConrad said:

Wentz behind their OL with those runnningbacks would at least give them a chance every week. All that offense is missing is a QB and WRs.  

Please, tell me about which running-backs we have. Duke is a great pass catcher, and that's about it. Most people wish Crowell would have remained kneeling 3 weeks ago. Half our forum wants to use the #1 overall pick of the draft on Saquon Barkley.

[BAConrad]

Crowell is very talented. 5 games this year doesn't change what he's done the last 2 seasons. 

 

 

Give those 2 RBs a real quarterback and they'd be a very good duo

[MWil23]

40 minutes ago, BAConrad said:

Crowell is very talented.

No, he's not. He was an UDFA, off the field issues aside.

40 minutes ago, BAConrad said:

5 games this year doesn't change what he's done the last 2 seasons. 

Let's just assume you're right (you're not, he's had a horrific year and with your logic that the Browns OL is good, which it is and that 5 games wouldn't change that for a RB, again, horrific logic).

He averaged a lousy 3.8 YPC in 2015 and has 19 career TD in 53 games with a career 4.1 YPC average, even with a solid 2016 campaign.

40 minutes ago, BAConrad said:

Give those 2 RBs a real quarterback and they'd be a very good duo

They already have one of the best OL in football. A good QB would help, but to say that they're anything better than mediocre at best is laughable.

[Soko]

1 hour ago, BAConrad said:

A foundation would be a star player at a Premium position (edge rusher, OT, or corner) and then multiple very good starters.   

 This is an absurdly high standard to hold a team accountable for. How many teams accomplish this with a hand full of picks? Even a whole draft?

[BLick12]

1 hour ago, BAConrad said:

But that's the thing....I don't see anything close to a foundation when I look at the players they've gotten from the trade. 

 

A foundation would be a star player at a Premium position (edge rusher, OT, or corner) and then multiple very good starters. 

 

Did they get a blue chip prospect who could be a star player? No. Very likely Jabrill Peppers, who is really the only guy you can argue would fit that bill, isn't going to be an elite player. Good? Maybe.

 

At best they have, a few years from now, maybe a couple good starters in Coleman and Peppers and then role players and a back up QB

 

Sorry but Im not sold on that being a foundation. 

 

 

And you re kidding yourself if you don't think that Wentz would make the Browns a significantly better team. Look what Hogan did when Kizer was benched.  17/19 with 2 TDs.  He threw a stupid interception, But the only reason the Browns were in that game was because Hogan was able to come in and give them at least mediocre QB play. 

 

Wentz behind their OL with those runnningbacks would at least give them a chance every week. All that offense is missing is a QB and WRs.  

I'm not saying that they drafted the right people or drafted well (it's way too early for you or anyone to decide that anyway, hell, they haven't even used all of their picks yet), I'm saying they had the right philosophy in mind, given their situation.

You're assuming Wentz would be as good as he is now.  Last year, with a bad supporting cast, he struggled with accuracy, mechanics, etc.  Imagine that, prolonged for years on a team like the Browns, that's how you break a potential franchise QB.  He'd be an upgrade over Kizer and Hogan, sure, but there's no way to know if he'd be as good as he is on the Eagles.  It's possible that he would be, but I think for young QBs, it helps dramatically to be in a more favorable situation with a solid supporting cast (see Dak Prescott). 

[BAConrad]

Let's just go ahead and put a pin on the whole "Would Carson be good on Cleveland". Because it's stupid to debate. It'll never happen and so well never know.

 

 

 

But this thread should have been over a long time ago because there is simply no argument that supports any team, especially one like Cleveland who have not had a real QB in 20+ years, passing on a potential franchise QB. 

It's that simple. I know some people here refuse to accept that any  thing can be as simple as this..but it is true.

You build a team by acquiring your franchise QB. Cleveland has passed on 2 of them already just in the last 2 drafts. The answer is simple. The Eagles won the trade, because we have our QBOTF. We are currently one of the best looking teams in the league, largely due to said quarterback.  

Whereas Cleveland just wasted a valuable 2nd round pick on Kizer, who was just benched in favor of....Kevin Hogan. And they can talk about their picks all they want.

 

 

Fact is until those draft picks turn into anything real/players who are impactful, Philly is the winner of this trade.