Mike Daniels released

[Packerraymond]

3 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

I think this part of the equation is also very flawed for a few reasons.

1) keeping an open mind to a team with daniels on it preserves his value

2) keeping daniels makes this team better, and you have all the way till the trade deadline to work something out in case someone gets desperate.

3) if you think you need cap space to the tune of 8 mil, you had the 4.7 tramon plus 3.6 crosby lever to pull as an alternative.

 

None of these are flaws, they are your opinions. Gute gets paid to make the decisions, not you. The Packers felt they could match Daniels production with Lowry, Adams, Lancaster and Keke, while gaining a valuable 8m. They felt Tramon and Williams had more valuable than Daniels. They also know what condition his foot is in, which you do not.

The Packers botched what you wanted them to do with Daniels. The Packers got exactly what they wanted from the scenario, would've been nice for them to get the cherry on top with a pick, but that didn't work.

[skibrett15]

Just now, Norm said:

Gute didn't turn down a 4th or 5th round pick.

correct, he never got offered one because the FO botched it.

Obviously it isn't some conspiracy where he turned down something in favor of nothing.  If you don't want to talk about the transactions and the track record of Gute, that's fine.  Don't tell me what to talk about because you don't think this is interesting.

It's the sum of the parts Norm.  Each decision is important.  This one doesn't make sense.  The randall one didn't make sense.  The Lowry signing doesn't make sense.  The JA trade down made a ton of sense.

Gute had 12 months to prepare for what he wanted to do with Daniels.  Cutting him now for nothing doesn't align with the value recouped by other GMs for worse players in similar situations.

He probably called cleveland.  Asked for a 4th.  They balked.  They said you're gonna have to cut him, he said maybe maybe not.  Then they called someone else in GB and confirmed that was the plan.

[deathstar]

A whole lot of huh? in this thread.

[Packerraymond]

4 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

correct, he never got offered one because the FO botched it.

Obviously it isn't some conspiracy where he turned down something in favor of nothing.  If you don't want to talk about the transactions and the track record of Gute, that's fine.  Don't tell me what to talk about because you don't think this is interesting.

It's the sum of the parts Norm.  Each decision is important.  This one doesn't make sense.  The randall one didn't make sense.  The Lowry signing doesn't make sense.  The JA trade down made a ton of sense.

Gute had 12 months to prepare for what he wanted to do with Daniels.  Cutting him now for nothing doesn't align with the value recouped by other GMs for worse players in similar situations.

He probably called cleveland.  Asked for a 4th.  They balked.  They said you're gonna have to cut him, he said maybe maybe not.  Then they called someone else in GB and confirmed that was the plan.

Boy we're really effed if Gute is the 60 IQ doofus described up above.

[skibrett15]

Just now, Packerraymond said:

None of these are flaws, they are your opinions. Gute gets paid to make the decisions, not you. The Packers felt they could match Daniels production with Lowry, Adams, Lancaster and Keke, while gaining a valuable 8m. They felt Tramon and Williams had more valuable than Daniels. They also know what condition his foot is in, which you do not.

The Packers botched what you wanted them to do with Daniels. The Packers got exactly what they wanted from the scenario, would've been nice for them to get the cherry on top with a pick, but that didn't work.

of course they are my opinions.  I think their thinking is flawed keeping those 2 players over Daniels.  It's a separate conversation to getting nothing for Daniels, but it's also part of the reason why they got nothing -- they didn't entertain keeping Daniels.

If i need to start all my posts with "in my opinion" or "this is my opinion" then wtf are we doing here?

Here's another way to look at it:

The free agent market determined that Daniels was a slight bargain contract in a vacuum by 800k.  Detroit would not offer 9.1M if they didn't think his "neutral" value was somewhere in the 10-12M range as far as what he will produce on the field.  Meaning they wouldn't have much of an opinion as to whether they are using their $$ effectively or not if Daniels was getting $12M, but if they get him for $9.1M they think he's worth that and has some upside as far as production.  And that's just assuming everyone is operating rationally and doesn't think Daniels is some secret piece which has $20M value to their team.

So what's ~$4M in cap space worth in draft compensation?

 

[skibrett15]

2 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Boy we're really effed if Gute is the 60 IQ doofus described up above.

what do you think happened?  He tried to trade him and nobody was interested in Daniels?

He said they were working on trades, and none worked out.  Now daniels has a deal which pays him more than any team who traded for him had to pay, and there were 13 teams interested in signing him.

How does Gute come away without egg on his face here?

[Packerraymond]

2 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

of course they are my opinions.  I think their thinking is flawed keeping those 2 players over Daniels.  It's a separate conversation to getting nothing for Daniels, but it's also part of the reason why they got nothing -- they didn't entertain keeping Daniels.

If i need to start all my posts with "in my opinion" or "this is my opinion" then wtf are we doing here?

Here's another way to look at it:

The free agent market determined that Daniels was a slight bargain contract in a vacuum by 800k.  Detroit would not offer 9.1M if they didn't think his "neutral" value was somewhere in the 10-12M range as far as what he will produce on the field.  Meaning they wouldn't have much of an opinion as to whether they are using their $$ effectively or not if Daniels was getting $12M, but if they get him for $9.1M they think he's worth that and has some upside as far as production.  And that's just assuming everyone is operating rationally and doesn't think Daniels is some secret piece which has $20M value to their team.

So what's ~$4M in cap space worth in draft compensation?

 

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say in that last paragraph. What Detroit paid Daniels has nothing to do with what he's worth. Lang and Sitton were not worth close to their contractual value once leaving the team, nor was Jennings or Tramon or just about everyone who's left here. He's 30, coming off foot surgery (which Palmy routinely said here is a kiss of death for big players) and our FO is high on our young guys. These situations have always worked out for GB, why don't we learn and stop freaking out after every single one...

 

[Packerraymond]

3 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

what do you think happened?  He tried to trade him and nobody was interested in Daniels?

He said they were working on trades, and none worked out.  Now daniels has a deal which pays him more than any team who traded for him had to pay, and there were 13 teams interested in signing him.

How does Gute come away without egg on his face here?

He was working with teams (he admitted this as much) came close to a deal with a certain team and it fell through, for whatever reason, doc got a look at his file, they decided to carry over that cap for next year, something. Brought us right to the start of camp, Gute decided he wanted that cap space, wasn't willing to risk losing it due to a Daniels injury for a 6-7 Rd pick and he cut him. 

Gute gets egg on his face if that money is carried over to next year's cap, if Blake or Kenny get that money and we eat a chunk of their bonus using that space and can prorate it over an extra year, lowering each subsequent year's cap hit, mission accomplished.

[Norm]

13 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Boy we're really effed if Gute is the 60 IQ doofus described up above.

He told everyone in GB with a phone number he was cutting Daniels before he tried to trade him. 

[skibrett15]

1 minute ago, Packerraymond said:

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say in that last paragraph. What Detroit paid Daniels has nothing to do with what he's worth. Lang and Sitton were not worth close to their contractual value once leaving the team, nor was Jennings or Tramon or just about everyone who's left here. He's 30, coming off foot surgery (which Palmy routinely said here is a kiss of death for big players) and our FO is high on our young guys. These situations have always worked out for GB, why don't we learn and stop freaking out after every single one...

 

it means when i sign a player, whether the decision is good or bad, if I am operating rationally, my aim is to sign a player for less money than the value I expect to recoup on the field.  Unless the goal is to hit the salary floor or something.  I'm paying Rodgers 30+ million because he's worth 40 on the field, or 50.  If he's not, then he's a bad deal.  Nobody signs a FA to a contract they believe at the time of signing is a bad deal.

Market just decided Daniels is worth over 9M in signed value to the "generic" NFL team.  I agree he's not worth the $8M to GB that they got in savings.  Money is probably better spent elsewhere (not on lowry, but that's another, albeit related, discussion)

But Gute can also know that he has value to other NFL teams in different situations.  And this is a fact that Daniels was an NFL asset, and a slightly undervalued NFL asset at that.  Such an asset has a trade value, and the FO failed to recoup that value.

[snackattack]

14 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

what do you think happened?  He tried to trade him and nobody was interested in Daniels?

He said they were working on trades, and none worked out.  Now daniels has a deal which pays him more than any team who traded for him had to pay, and there were 13 teams interested in signing him.

How does Gute come away without egg on his face here?

Is this the case? I thought he had a $10M salary with about $2M guaranteed from us. If we traded him wouldnt the receiving team owe the full $10M, or would we have to pay the guaranteed amount?

[TransientTexan]

9 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

Market just decided Daniels is worth over 9M in signed value to the "generic" NFL team.  I agree he's not worth the $8M to GB that they got in savings.  Money is probably better spent elsewhere (not on lowry, but that's another, albeit related, discussion)

Just because another team was willing to pay him that much money doesn’t mean they’re willing to pay him that money AND surrender a pick for it. Especially if they know he is likely to be cut just by virtue of having the conversation. 

[skibrett15]

11 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

What Detroit paid Daniels has nothing to do with what he's worth.

this part is just wrong.  What detroit paid daniels IS what he's worth.  It's the only measure of what he's worth right now which indicates his trade value.  Not his injury history, not his pro bowls, not his scheme fit with GB.

 

If Daniels had gone out and gotten 5M, 6M, 7M.  Sure.  I would say he had no trade value on that 1 year deal.  But he got more than he was due to make on the old contract.  He didn't even get a long term deal which muddies the waters.  He got an equivalent deal, and 4+ teams wanted to give it to him.  Who the heck was gute on the phone with besides these 5  teams?  perhaps he just never called minnesota, detroit and chicago and they were 3/5?

4 minutes ago, snackattack said:

Is this the case? I thought he had a $10M salary with about $2M guaranteed from us. If we traded him wouldnt the receiving team owe the full $10M, or would we have to pay the guaranteed amount?

we would pay the 2M signing bonus part (same as cutting him) they would pay the base salary and non-gtd amount. 

[skibrett15]

Just now, TransientTexan said:

Just because another team was willing to pay him that much money doesn’t mean they’re willing to pay him that money AND surrender a pick for it. Especially if they know he is likely to be cut just by virtue of having the conversation. 

except that players with active FA markets are consistently dealt for draft picks in order to ensure that team gets the player.  There are 4 teams right now disappointed Mike Daniels didn't pick them.  That's your leverage - there's only 1 mike daniels and all these teams have cap room.  All these teams might get a compensatory pick next year when daniels sigs a multi-year deal.

[MrBobGray]

Just now, skibrett15 said:

this part is just wrong.  What detroit paid daniels IS what he's worth.  It's the only measure of what he's worth right now which indicates his trade value.  Not his injury history, not his pro bowls, not his scheme fit with GB.

 

If Daniels had gone out and gotten 5M, 6M, 7M.  Sure.  I would say he had no trade value on that 1 year deal.  But he got more than he was due to make on the old contract.  He didn't even get a long term deal which muddies the waters.  He got an equivalent deal, and 4+ teams wanted to give it to him.  Who the heck was gute on the phone with besides these 5  teams?  perhaps he just never called minnesota, detroit and chicago and they were 3/5?

we would pay the 2M signing bonus part (same as cutting him) they would pay the base salary and non-gtd amount. 

Yeah, and who wanted to pay Daniels that plus give up draft picks, that will each be incredibly cheap players for 4+ years? 

Why are we still discussing this? If Green Bay replaces his production no problem, it doesn't matter. If they don't they messed up. What is there left to talk about?