Saints sign Sean Payton to 5 year extension

[Dome]

On 9/20/2019 at 1:24 PM, Tugboat said:

Certainly interesting in that it pretty much confirms that he's going to be around post-Brees, to break in a new QB...whoever that guys is, or wherever they find them.

Sean is a huge narcissist. He wants to prove he can do it without Brees. 

[SkippyX]

1 hour ago, Dome said:

@SkippyX i think your definition of "elite" is different than most peoples.

If you make a list of all Brees skill position players over the years and ask the FF masses how many are "elite" I think you'll be surprised by the answers.

Just get an idea of what the masses think about it.

 

Saints fans heard for YEARS that Colston was JAG and a product of Brees, so you'll excuse us if we just can't take your word that he was actually elite.

In fact, this might be the first time I've heard someone call Colston elite. Saints fans included.

****, even in the Michael Thomas extension thread, people were saying he was overrated because of who is throwing him the ball.

Brees is the same person who was throwing the ball to Chargers. 

Payton and the dome and the fans and the players helped Brees to unlock his potential.

You can't say Brees is Elite because numbers and then deny the numbers of anyone else.

Checkout the link I included as a safe space to see how close Colston (in less games) was to Fitzgerald.

• Was anyone saying Fitz was not elite?

Elite is not about talent or popularity or draft position. Its about production.

I would have killed for Colston in Philly from 2006 to 2012.

[Dome]

6 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Brees is the same person who was throwing the ball to Chargers. 

Payton and the dome and the fans and the players helped Brees to unlock his potential.

Nobody is denying this as far as I’m aware of. 

The extent to what you’re pushing this idea is what I disagree with.

Most off the all-time greats can attribute at least some of their success to their circumstances. Sometimes more. 

I just don’t recall anyone talking about Brees skill position players being the reason he was great before you. Colston and Cooks were never seen as “elite” on the Saints tbh. Trying to push that now is downright shocking IMO

6 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

You can't say Brees is Elite because numbers and then deny the numbers of anyone else.

Checkout the link I included as a safe space to see how close Colston (in less games) was to Fitzgerald.

 Colston had a HOF QB throwing to him his entire career.

Fitzy? Not so much. 

Too look at their stats and say “SEE? They were the same” is not an intellectual honest argument IMO. You’re totally ignoring all the circumstances surrounding them as prospects/players in the NFL as well as what was expected of them given their ability. 

If Colston was a highly regarded prospect like Fitz was you’d have a point, but Colston was nobody before he landed with Brees and Payton. People knew what Fitzy was gonna be.

6 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

• Was anyone saying Fitz was not elite?

Elite is not about talent or popularity or draft position. Its about production.

You’re the first person (discounting Saints homers) who has called Colston elite as far as I know. So thanks for the props.

 

[Dome]

But don’t take my word for it. Make a thread asking how many of Brees skill position players over the years were “elite”.

[SkippyX]

Try this one for comparison:

• First 102 games for Colston --- 821 targets 532 catches 7394 yards 58 TDs 13.9 per catch
• First 97 for DeAndre Hopkins --- 919 targets 541 catches 7588 yards 49 TDs 14.0 per catch
• First 107 for Brandon Marshall --- 1021 targets 612 catches 7755 yards 45 TDs 12.7 per catch
• First 101 for Demaryius Thomas 899 targets 546 catches 7704 yards 52 TDs 14.1 per catch
• First 106 for Steve Smith 835 targets 509 catches 7348 catches 43 TDs 14.4 per catch

Nuk is obviously elite. Colston was not Nuk... but look how close in an era that was not as pass happy.

He is right there with all of these guys.

 

Just because you had to eat it year after year from ignorant people who did not like any Saint not named Drew Bres does not change what Colston did.

 

BTW, Torry Holt was a special WR.

First 110 for Holt --- 1010 targets 619 catches 9487 yards 54 TDs 15.3 per catch

and ludicrous Moss just for fun

First 109 for Moss --- 987 targets 574 catches 9142 yards 90 TDs 15.9 per catch

[SkippyX]

The context behind this was the weak sauce argument that Sean Payton was a bad coach that was only propped up by an elite Brees.

I did not bash Brees, but rather showed just how good some of these skill position players were (based on production like every other player ever)

 

Its not a zero sum game.

Brees is absolutely elite and absolutely a top 10 all time QB  (we can debate top 5 or top 3 but its not important here)

Payton is also elite 

Colston(06-12), Graham(11-14), Thomas(16-present), and Kamara(17-present) were elite for those seasons.

Cooks(15-16) was a damn good year 2-3 WR. If we want to argue he was the 7th best and only 6 of 64+ starting WRs can be elite then we are splitting hairs.

 

NOBODY is Randy Moss, Jerry Rice or Terrell Owens.

Here is Brady's second act:

• Moss (07-09) was elite in New England
• Welker (07-12) was elite
• Gronk (10-18) was elite
• Cooks(17) was elite
• I did not do a RB review but you can say Blount produced at an elite level in 2016 even if he is not a year in and year out elite RB
• Dillon (04-06) was for sure in his first act

Edited September 22, 2019 by SkippyX

[SkippyX]

33 minutes ago, Dome said:

But don’t take my word for it. Make a thread asking how many of Brees skill position players over the years were “elite”.

Yeah, I need a poll to know what the Nick Foles sucks guys and the Rivers 'winning-is-overrated' guys and the Brady * guys and the Dak > Zeke guys think about Colston.

 

You should run one on a Saints forum and let me know how it goes.  

 

BTW, he's 37th all-time in yards per game receiving. Maybe there were only 36 elite WRs?

• Cooks is 25th so far and Thomas is 5th so far.

Colston is 39th in TD catches (tied with Graham and Jordy Nelson)

He is 52nd all-time in yards and he only played 10 years.

[Dome]

1 minute ago, SkippyX said:

Yeah, I need a poll to know what the Nick Foles sucks guys and the Rivers 'winning-is-overrated' guys and the Brady * guys and the Dak > Zeke guys think about Colston.

 

You should run one on a Saints forum and let me know how it goes.  

 

BTW, he's 37th all-time in yards per game receiving. Maybe there were only 36 elite WRs?

• Cooks is 25th so far and Thomas is 5th so far.

Colston is 39th in TD catches (tied with Graham and Jordy Nelson)

He is 52nd all-time in yards and he only played 10 years.

Make a thread ANYWHERE other than a Saints forum and ask if Marques Colston was ELITE.

 

You've got a very hot take on your hands.

[JAF-N72EX]

1 hour ago, Dome said:

But don’t take my word for it. Make a thread asking how many of Brees skill position players over the years were “elite”.

As an outsider who has watched Payton and Brees throughout their entire careers, I'm very confident in saying none until late.

Bush didn't turn out to be what he was hyped up to be (aka the next Barry Sanders). Colston was a good player but he was never elite by any stretch of imagination and I don't give a damn what his stats look like. Not saying he was just a run of the mill WR because he wasn't, but you could have thrown in damn near anyone with his size and catch radius and still had the same success with Payton and Brees at the time. 

Payton/Brees ' offenses have done more with less than any other tandem in the NFL and honestly I don't think it's even close.

People like to always talk about how Belichick system being such a plug and play system, and their not wrong. But Payton's system have been right up there with him without the defense and yet this seems to get overlooked.

[SkippyX]

I think I figured out the disconnect. Its a tight focus on single seasons and pro bowls.

Colston never had the 1500 yard 14 TD season. He was just consistently a top 6-12 WR.

Lee Evans or Roy Williams had a better 2006 but Colston kills them in a 2 year comparison or any number of years besides just 2006.

Braylon Edwards had a better 2007 but Colston kills him in an comparison besides just 2007 alone.

You can find lots of 1 or 2 year guys like that. 

 

We could talk Roddy White vs Colston all day long.

Yards to White, TDs to Colston, back and forth... until you get to yards per target and Colston has him clearly at 8.9 to 7.9.

White had a better peak so he went to 4 pro bowls. (3 on merit)

2011 is a great year to analyze.

• White has him on raw numbers(catches and yards) (tied at 8 TDs) but Colston only played 14 games.
  • White needed 180 targets to get those numbers. Colston did it with 107 targets.
    • Yards per catch - Colston 14.3 to White's 13.0
    • Yards per target - Colston 10.7 to White's 7.2
    • Yards per game - Colston 81.6 to White's 81

They both went to the playoffs that year.

• Colston had 251 yards and a TD in 2 games. (on 19 targets)
• White had 52 yards on 12 targets in 1 game.

 

We will never know what kind of numbers Colston would put up if he was in an offense that targeted him 160 times like someone like Brandon Marshall would get.

 

 

[SkippyX]

You can find a very few who would get the same production year in and year out with the limited opportunities that Colston got as the #1 WR in a spread the ball around offense like the Saints.

Their names are Calvin Johnson, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Jerry Rice and about 40 other guys in NFL history.

If you need a guy to only do it twice then try someone like David Boston.

[JAF-N72EX]

@SkippyX Manipulating raw numbers is easy. Care to put any context behind those numbers? Such as; as how many of those numbers came in garbage time because the defense played so poorly?  Or are you just gonna continue to box score scout? 

[Jlowe22]

The Saints players since 2006 I'd consider elite are Jimmy Graham, and maybe Sproles in 2011.  More recently, Kamara and Thomas.

What made the Saints an elite offense for such a long stretch was the depth.  The number 1 guys werent elite, but the numbers 2-4 guy were all number 2s. Payton is a great offensive mind that gets the most out of his offensive players, and Brees throws what is perhaps the most catchable ball in existence.

[Jlowe22]

8 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Brees is the same person who was throwing the ball to Chargers. 

 

Brees showed elite potential in 2004 with San Diego.  He was just plain bad his first couple years in San Diego, but started playing much better.  Yes, he had a bit a down year in 2005, but that wasn't from not being a Saint.  He had just as bad of a year in 2007 after becoming a Saint and having an all-pro year in 2006.  Brees didn't hit his prime until 08 or 09. 

It'd be a better comparison if he played for both teams during his prime years, but that wasn't the case.