Thaiphoon Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 4 hours ago, MKnight82 said: Kind of nuts considering the resources they've spent on the Oline the past few years, but our Oline just isn't that good. I would say they are an average pass blocking team but abysmal at run blocking, which kills playcalling because the defense knows you can't run. LT Trent Williams - I'm going to assume Trent never plays a down for the Redskins again. Donald Penn - He's 36 years old and on a 1-year contract. He's held up OK in pass protection but is getting no push in the running game as far as I can tell. Geron Christian - He had a chance to grab the starting posiiton and run with it, but we instead signed a 36 year old FA sitting at home with no other prospects. Looks like Christian is a bust. LG Ereck Flowers - Its hard to individually grade him at this point. I haven't noticed him screwing up in pass protection, but again we're getting no push in the running game to that left side. I would say at this point if he pans out great, but I wouldn't keep my hopes up. Wes Martin - He looked solid in his first start for the perpetually injured Scherff. He's definitely strong so I think he has upside in the running game. Too soon to tell here. OC Chase Roullier - I really loved this pick in the draft at the time, and Chase seems decent at calling pass protections at the line and in pass protection himself. But he's getting no push in the running game at all. I think we could cover for his weaknesses if we had two dominant Guard surrounding him, but we don't. Tony Bergstrom - He's just a guy. 33 year old backup, I wouldn't blink an eye if they cut him tomorrow. Ross Pierschbacher - Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he's been active on gameday yet this year. Disappointing he didn't get a shot this week instead of Bergstrom this week. Too soon to tell, but probably trending towards career backup. RG Brandon Scherff - After Williams quit on the team he became our supposed best Olineman, but he has really struggled this year. He was getting embarassed by the Bears defense in that MNF game, and for a former college LT has surprising difficulties in pass protection at times. I would say he's probably our best run blocking Olineman at this point, but certainly not dominant at it. IMO he doesn't have a dominant part of his game at all. Pretty scary with his contract status looming. RT Morgan Moses - Moses is an average offensive lineman that is better in pass protection than run blocking (a theme for our roster). He's paid as the 59th highest Olineman in the league, which isn't egregious, and at 28 years old, has 3 years remaining on his contract. He isn't amazing but honestly we could do worse. I think he's probably here at least throughout his contract. So what's the conclusion here? We basically have nothing at LT. Our RG will likely want to become the highest paid Guard in history when he doesn't deserve it. We have an extremely underwhelming Center, and some other Guards that will probably pan out to be backup level players. That leaves us with an average at best RT as our only set starter for the next few years. Trade Trent Trade Scherff Wes Martin can be RG. Flowers LG. That leaves us to replace: LT, C and RT In terms of order of replacement: LT is first C is second RT is third Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARTMONK HOF Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 I like Tristan Wirfs a lot. He’s the RT for Iowa but people think he can move to the left side. Athletic Mauler! Rounds 1-2 but mostly in the end of the first. If a team feels he can play the blindside, his stock will rise! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4209 Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Most of us here know that there's something inherently wrong with Gruden RG. It is hard for any RB to establish any rhythm when given so few chances. Gruden will throw the ball 2 times out of 3 downs and most NFL team know this. The RG is really an afterthought in Gruden offense scheme. Think about it, Gruden offense is a passing scheme built around pass catching TE (Reed). Gruden TE's are not great blockers but rather poor blockers. This goes for the OL also. He is unable to adjust his scheme to the personnel he has. Every team has some sort of power running plays but there’s a problem with Gruden RG foundationally b/c of lack of execution, practice, a better running scheme overall and some much needed physicality and attitude of the of the offensive line. Gibbs and Shanahan understood this. Now I'm not saying we should run Gibbs/ Shanahan power run schemes but really Gruden offense is more about the passing game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Thaiphoon said: Trade Trent Trade Scherff Wes Martin can be RG. Flowers LG. That leaves us to replace: LT, C and RT In terms of order of replacement: LT is first C is second RT is third Do you honestly believe they need an to address center? Roullier is a good starter and they just drafted Ross P as a reserve. RT is also way down the list of team needs for a few years. People are basing Moses having a poor start to the season off of him having to face the 3 of the 5 best pass rushers he’ll face all season - Brandon Graham, Dexter Lawrence and Kahlil Mack. From what I could tell, Moses played a lot better yesterday bc he didn’t have to block a pro bowl caliber LDE or a defensive player of the year. Edited October 1, 2019 by turtle28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaiphoon Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 1 minute ago, turtle28 said: Do you honestly believe they need an to address center? Roullier is a good starter and they just drafted Ross P as a reserve. RT is also way down the list of team needs for a few years. People are basing Moses having a poor start to the season off of him having to face the 3 of the 5 best pass rushers he’ll face all season - Brandon Graham, Dexter Lawrence and Kahlil Mack. From what I could tell, Moses played a lot better yesterday bc he didn’t have to block a pro bowl caliber LDE or a defensive player of the year. I agree with the OP. Roullier is a decent starter. But he gets no push in the run game and in fact gets pushed around. Ross P is a reserve and could be the replacement I'm talking about. Or he might not be. Either way, C is a concern. RT may be down the list of team needs, but it is a need when talking about the OL...which is what this whole thread is about, right? "We have an OLINE problem" is the title, no? As for Moses "facing pass rushers", yadda yadd yadda, he still had how many holding penalties last year? And on pace to match them or beat them this year? Yeah... ...so he's someone we need to replace. But only once we address LT and C. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Thaiphoon said: I agree with the OP. Roullier is a decent starter. But he gets no push in the run game and in fact gets pushed around. Ross P is a reserve and could be the replacement I'm talking about. Or he might not be. Either way, C is a concern. RT may be down the list of team needs, but it is a need when talking about the OL...which is what this whole thread is about, right? "We have an OLINE problem" is the title, no? As for Moses "facing pass rushers", yadda yadd yadda, he still had how many holding penalties last year? And on pace to match them or beat them this year? Yeah... ...so he's someone we need to replace. But only once we address LT and C. It’s true, Moses’ penalties are a problem but I don’t think there’s any guarantee that a guy like Geron Christian or another mid round OT we’d draft in the next few drafts will be better than what Moses currently is. Moses is no pro bowler, but he’s certainly better than the revolving door we’ve had at RT since Jon Jansen 11 years ago. Also, I should have said this before. I agree on the trades, but I don’t see them being able to trade Scherff. No one is going to trade for him now having injuries in back to back seasons and with him being a free agent in March. If we let him walk or if he won’t re-sign the best we can hope for at this point is a 3rd round comp pick in the 2021 draft, which is actually fine compensation IMO for a good guard. I think Scherff will bolt for Minny like Kirk did. Scherff is also a Midwest guy and he’ll probably want to play with Kirk again. The dumbest thing Brice is doing to this franchise is not selling their good/great players when their trade value is high - and other teams need/want them - he did this with Kirk and he’s doing it now with Trent. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfgate.com/49ers/amp/Jalen-Ramsey-trade-Trent-Williams-John-Lynch-49ers-14473830.php "I think you look at those opportunities — there are some unique ones now — I think sometimes though we are always assuming that people are available, (but) that's not always the case," he said. "Just because they're out there and not playing with their current team doesn't mean they're always available." The asking price for Williams or Ramsey would likely involve at least one first-round pick, a tough pill to swallow for the 49ers, who are already down their second-round pick in 2020 due to the Dee Ford trade. "We look into these things, we often make calls on these things," Lynch said of trade conversations. "We obviously came in here with a plan of having success but having it be sustained success, so is this going to hamstring our operation moving forward? We look at all these things." Will Brice once again refuse to trade a player who doesn’t want to play for him as team President bc he still doesn’t want to help Kyle Shanahan? Brice is holding this franchise hostage and not making rational good football decisions over personal feelings he has for another teams HC. It’s stupid, we could have gotten the the 49ers 2016 first round pick for Kirk Cousins and that could have ended up being a franchise QB in Jared Goff or Carson Wentz after we traded up to draft them. Trent should have already been traded to the 49ers, Browns or Chargers for whichever team would give us the best deal. These bad two decisions alone should have gotten Brice fired already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Draper Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) Why we don’t have a running game? 1. It’s not a mystery- it’s actually very easy to understand. Gruden is an arena ball player and coach. His offense uses some of the same concepts. They don’t run in arena ball. Gruden is what he’s always been- a likable guy who was successful in the minor leagues ( but never good enough to be successful in the bigs) who likes to draw up pass plays, not the brightest bulb in the pack 💡 so he takes way to long to see opportunities to adjust, a guy who is easy going and takes it the easy way with himself, his coaches and preparing his team, wants to be friends ( a pleaser) with coaches, players and the media, always identifies, plays favorites and sees himself in players who just aren’t talented enough like he was/is, who would never have made it to the bigs without being named Gruden, and he’s probably very insecure about this. Psych 101. 2. Is the OL a problem? We probably have a middle of the road talent there, but it’s mismatched. Our RT Moses can’t run block. Our standout RG who is a run blocking mauler spends the great majority of his time pass blocking which isn’t his strength, our center is serviceable but under powered and gets no push, , our LG is a mystery, and Trent was an old over rated LT living off his reputation but is still a top 10 LT but not the top tackle he has been billed as, also our tight ends don’t block and our running play designs are so juvenile usually first down plunges. All this comes back to point number 1. A coach utilizes the talent he has by adjusting and Dimwit still hasn’t figured it out after what, 5 and 1/4 years? Of course, Danny and Bruce are just as bad, but probably worse, but that’s for another thread. We suck, stink, crap the bed etc... as a team and the blame goes to all of the front office and coaches who buy the groceries and plan the menu. Pick your own analogy and amplify: we are a dumpster fire, a tear down, a lost cause and have been for almost all of Danny’s ownership tenure ( 2 playoff wins in 20 years). Will it change with a new coach or new offensive lineman? Edited October 1, 2019 by Doc Draper 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Doc Draper said: Why we don’t have a running game? 1. It’s not a mystery- it’s actually very easy to understand. Gruden is an arena ball player and coach. His offense uses some of the same concepts. They don’t run in arena ball. Gruden is what he’s always been- a likable guy who was successful in the minor leagues ( but never good enough to be successful in the bigs) who likes to draw up pass plays, not the brightest bulb in the pack 💡 so he takes way to long to see opportunities to adjust, a guy who is easy going and takes it the easy way with himself, his coaches and preparing his team, wants to be friends ( a pleaser) with coaches, players and the media, always identifies, plays favorites and sees himself in players who just aren’t talented enough like he was/is, who would never have made it to the bigs without being named Gruden, and he’s probably very insecure about this. Psych 101. 2. Is the OL a problem? We probably have a middle of the road talent there, but it’s mismatched. Our RT Moses can’t run block. Our standout RG who is a run blocking mauler spends the great majority of his time pass blocking which isn’t his strength, our center is serviceable but under powered and gets no push, , our LG is a mystery, and Trent was an old over rated LT living off his reputation but is still a top 10 LT but not the top tackle he has been billed as, also our tight ends don’t block and our running play designs are so juvenile usually first down plunges. All this comes back to point number 1. A coach utilizes the talent he has by adjusting and Dimwit still hasn’t figured it out after what, 5 and 1/4 years? Of course, Danny and Bruce are just as bad, but probably worse, but that’s for another thread. We suck, stink, crap the bed etc... as a team and the blame goes to all of the front office and coaches who buy the groceries and plan the menu. Pick your own analogy and amplify: we are a dumpster fire, a tear down, a lost cause and have been for almost all of Danny’s ownership tenure ( 2 playoff wins in 20 years). Will it change with a new coach or new offensive lineman? I don't disagree about Gruden, but Callahan is our run game coordinator. Also, if we had Trent, Reed (the first 4 games) and add to that McLaurin and Scherff on our offense the last week vs the Giants you're not telling me that our offense wouldn't have been better? They were down their two pro bowl OL on Sunday and in total 3 OL starters and 5 starters on offense overall. I actually think Gruden uses his talent quite well. He's certainly used CT, Reed, VD and McLaurin in the correct roles and maximized their talents and had them do what they do best. One thing that's bothered me since 2015 is that CT doesn't get enough touches. We can't be afraid of him getting hurt. We have to use him while we have him. He a only averaging 8 touches a game, that should be double. CT is averaging 12.6 ypc but he only has 20 catches through 4 games, that should be more like 30 given he's easy to get the ball to on screens, wheel routes and in the slot. He should at least have 10 more receptions and that’d be 130 more yards of offense or so. It just doesn't add up that Trent is overrated. We don't have him at LT and our entire OL has taken a step back and, we can't run the ball to the left side?? Hmmm 🤔 One other problem with our running game this year is actually that the left side of our OL is much, much worse at run blocking. Trent is a great athletic run blocker - he a better run blocker than pass blocked - he's strong and powerful at the point of attack, he's athletic and fast enough to get to the edge and lead Chris Thompson down the field on an outside zone play, a screen pass, sweep or toss and also I've seen Peterson and Thompson missing holes more holes than last year. Also, it's Flowers’ first four games at guard. He's not used to getting low and driving the shorter DT’s that he's blocking now. He's a work in progress in the run game. It's obvious that w/o Trent and Lavaou - who was a good run blocker - on the left side, it's a major reason our OL has taken a step back. Edited October 1, 2019 by turtle28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offbyone Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 9 hours ago, turtle28 said: I don't disagree about Gruden, but Callahan is our run game coordinator. And this perfectly illustrates Gruden's inability to be a HC. Delegating the run game to Callahan is great. But after it has sputtered for years and doesn't evolve a real head coach, swoops in and makes a big change. Gruden is happy to just roll along because even though it has failed for 6 years, it is the 7th year when it will all come together. No need to adjust. He might hurt Callahan's feelings. Better off losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 On 9/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, ARTMONK HOF said: I like Tristan Wirfs a lot. He’s the RT for Iowa but people think he can move to the left side. Athletic Mauler! Rounds 1-2 but mostly in the end of the first. If a team feels he can play the blindside, his stock will rise! Why not just draft him to be Moses's replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARTMONK HOF Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 hour ago, turtle28 said: Why not just draft him to be Moses's replacement. For sure If we traded down. He’s not a top 5 pick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 (edited) On 9/30/2019 at 11:00 PM, 4209 said: Most of us here know that there's something inherently wrong with Gruden RG. It is hard for any RB to establish any rhythm when given so few chances. Gruden will throw the ball 2 times out of 3 downs and most NFL team know this. The RG is really an afterthought in Gruden offense scheme. Think about it, Gruden offense is a passing scheme built around pass catching TE (Reed). Gruden TE's are not great blockers but rather poor blockers. This goes for the OL also. He is unable to adjust his scheme to the personnel he has. Every team has some sort of power running plays but there’s a problem with Gruden RG foundationally b/c of lack of execution, practice, a better running scheme overall and some much needed physicality and attitude of the of the offensive line. Gibbs and Shanahan understood this. Now I'm not saying we should run Gibbs/ Shanahan power run schemes but really Gruden offense is more about the passing game. This is true, Cooley says it all the time. They try to do too many different things in the running game instead of just mastering one type of scheme or a few plays like Gibbs did in the 80s and the Shanahan’s with the zone read and always executing them perfectly. Gruden has tried to blend the power game with the occasional zone running plays. AS Cooley says, the play-action does not mesh with our running scheme either, which is a problem and it's a tell to defenses when we are going to pass the ball and not run, even when there is a play-action fake. I wish Gruden would run the ZBS and then we'd have the boot action off of that. When we had forester still in 2014, we still ran ZBS and our running game was at least still average. I don't see it happening though and I don’t think we have the OL personnel to run ZBS effectively anymore. I don't think any of our current OL would be effective in it except Roullier and Scherff. Penn, Flowers and Moses aren't the athletic type of OL to move side to side and slightly forward all game on runs to create those creases and cut back lanes. My personal preference since CT broke out in 2015 was to make him the featured back. I've always wanted to go back to the ZBS and have CT as the starter. We’d win mostly outside zone with him so that he wouldn't be as susceptible to injury and his touches as a RB wouldn't be that increased. We’d use him more than we already do in the passing game though, play to our strengths with him as our featured back. CT could handle 10 rushes a game and 5 to 10 receptions a game with his receptions consisting of few screens, a few wheel routes, a few check-downs, and a few an empty back field's with him in the slot or out wide where we’d get him the ball quickly on a slant, an out or a quick thrown out on the edge with an OT/TE/WR running out to block for him like it was a screen. It will never happen, but that would have been my running game with CT since 2015. Obviously, given CTs injury history, we'd always have to have one poor man's CT on the team who is a good special teams guy, which we’ve done anyways for the last 3 years. Then, CTs main back up would be a bigger power back or a RB who can be a 3-down back type - like Guice - and we’d use him as CT’s change of pace. That player would get 10 touches a game to spell CT. Then, you don’t feel the need to keep 4 RB's too and you can keep a FB/TE combo type who can be your FB and 3rd TE. Like a Niles Paul/JP Holtz type, 6’ - 6’2, 240 to 250 pounds. Edited October 3, 2019 by turtle28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 On 10/1/2019 at 12:54 PM, offbyone said: And this perfectly illustrates Gruden's inability to be a HC. Delegating the run game to Callahan is great. But after it has sputtered for years and doesn't evolve a real head coach, swoops in and makes a big change. Gruden is happy to just roll along because even though it has failed for 6 years, it is the 7th year when it will all come together. No need to adjust. He might hurt Callahan's feelings. Better off losing. Well I don't think we know the answer as to if it's Callahan who's holding the run game back or Gruden. I just know it's supposely Callahan's job, but that doesn't mean that Gruden just calls the fun plays he wants. And actually, in 2014 we still had Mr Buggersugar as our OL coach and run game coordinator, he was let go to get Callahan. In 2014 we still ran the ZBS with Alfred Morris and he had over 1,000 yds. 2015 we went to a man blocking scheme with the occasional outside zone call and the fun game mostly fell apart especially after Lavaou and Kory L were lost for the year and we had to rely on Long and Lereibus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtle28 Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 On 10/3/2019 at 2:07 AM, ARTMONK HOF said: For sure If we traded down. He’s not a top 5 pick. Or if we traded Trent & draft him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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