Joe Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 1 minute ago, TheOnlyThing said: 1. One name that might pop up is Danny Trevathan from the Bears. His contract is up and Chicago is both up against the cap and looking at a significant re-tool of the roster. Plus, Trevathan expressed interest in coming to GB last time he was a FA -- back when the Packers did not believe in signing free agents. 2. It is laughable that some want to blame Pettine for forcing Blake to try and defend a RB in the passing game. If Blake can't stay with a RB and is not capable of guarding a TE what exactly is a DC supposed to do with a guy like that on passing downs? It is reminiscent of the blame heaped upon Dom for expecting Hawk to stay with "fleet footed" TEs like Kyle Rudolph. Competent teams attack the opposition's weakness and right now we have a subpar player in Martinez and nothing next to him at ILB, so teams are completing passes at will over the middle. 1. Trevathan is old and banged up. You're going to want to throw money on a dude that's past his prime? 2. It is also laughable that Tramon is expected to cover Deebo Samuel and Hunter Henry, yet Pettine uses him for that purpose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOnlyThing Posted November 25, 2019 Author Share Posted November 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, Joe said: I too have been frustrated with the ILB situation, but I can't help but think we SHOULDN'T address it in the first two rounds this year because... We have nothing but JAG's and a rookie next to Clark. Lowry and Adams are both too inconsistent and since we have that major issue there, too many OL and RB's are getting to that soft second level as a result. We will have to solve the DL issue BEFORE the ILB simply because that's the current lay-of-the-land. Additionally, going by Drafttek's rankings, it really looks like we have a ton of prospects to choose from that have a 3-5 round ranking. Just because our ILB talent sucks doesn't mean you are not also 100% correct about the JAGSs surrounding Clark, I agree wholeheartedly. And you may be correct that the need at DL and DL draft talent this year dictates we focus there in rounds 1-2 next spring. But we just can't continue to trot out the likes of Blake Martinez, Antonio Morrison, BJ Goodson, Jake Ryan, etc., etc. and expect the middle of our passing defense to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSG Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 The defensive line is far more important than who's playing behind them. ILBs/ MLBs are only as good as the guys in front of them. If Blake Martinez played in Buffalo, New England, San Fran or Chicago I think the opinion of him would be much different. Given the amount of defensive line talent, those aren't great examples of a MLB/ ILB being one of the most important positions on the defense. About the only exception to that IMO is New England who's scheme doesn't seem to be effected by any change in personnel. Hard to point at Hightower being in the middle as the reasoning for their success given how easily he's replaced when injured (which is extremely often). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said: Just because our ILB talent sucks doesn't mean you are not also 100% correct about the JAGSs surrounding Clark, I agree wholeheartedly. And you may be correct that the need at DL and DL draft talent this year dictates we focus there in rounds 1-2 next spring. But we just can't continue to trot out the likes of Blake Martinez, Antonio Morrison, BJ Goodson, Jake Ryan, etc., etc. and expect the middle of our passing defense to improve. I never argued that... What I am arguing, however, is that Pettine's scheme is soft regardless of the personnel. The big excuse for Capers was that it was personnel personnel personnel. Well, guess what, we've got the personnel sparing the DL and ILB next to Martinez. Just now, SSG said: The defensive line is far more important than who's playing behind them. ILBs/ MLBs are only as good as the guys in front of them. If Blake Martinez played in Buffalo, New England, San Fran or Chicago I think the opinion of him would be much different. Given the amount of defensive line talent, those aren't great examples of a MLB/ ILB being one of the most important positions on the defense. About the only exception to that IMO is New England who's scheme doesn't seem to be effected by any change in personnel. Hard to point at Hightower being in the middle as the reasoning for their success given how easily he's replaced when injured (which is extremely often). This... Van Noy has really stepped his game up in New England and has almost surpassed Hightower for leadership of that defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOnlyThing Posted November 25, 2019 Author Share Posted November 25, 2019 1 minute ago, SSG said: Hard to point at Hightower being in the middle as the reasoning for their success given how easily he's replaced when injured (which is extremely often). Belichik gets rid of players, including very good players, at the drop of the hat when they are not as critical to the Patriots success as the money they command. From Richard Seymour, to Jamie Collins, to Chandler Jones, Malcolm Butler, Logan Ryan, etc. Belichik has made difficult decisions in moving on from some real defensive talent over the years. But Bill made sure to pay Dont'a Hightower and keep him in the middle of his defense, because Hightower truly is key to that defenses success. https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/alabama-football/bill-belichick-explains-what-makes-donta-hightower-a-special-player/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOnlyThing Posted November 25, 2019 Author Share Posted November 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Joe said: 1. Trevathan is old and banged up. You're going to want to throw money on a dude that's past his prime? 2. It is also laughable that Tramon is expected to cover Deebo Samuel and Hunter Henry, yet Pettine uses him for that purpose... Trevathan is relatively old, but actually the exact same age as Hightower. He has also been banged up and may well be past his prime. Problem for me is that Martinez is his prime is nothing more than a JAG. Do you really want to throw money at a guy just because he accumulates tackles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) There have been very few times that I have gone back and watched a game that Martinez is a significant negative. Half of the upsettedness about Martinez is just blaming him for any catch over the middle. That's not how this works. When you play as much C2 as we're doing, you're asking him to cover an absolutely massive area, 20 yards wide (cut the 80 yard field into quarters) by ten yards deep (5- 15 yards from the line of scrimmage. That's hard enough, now understand that he's the most likely to be targeted in the C2 looks because he has this massive area to cover, and the safeties are protecting the Corners vertically. Now understand that because teams know what we're running because we're predicable, their concepts are stressing him by intentionally placing two targets into this huge zone. If the outside receiver runs a 13 yard in-route, and the TE runs a 7 yard drag, somebody is open unless the Safety has the wherewithal (and the tactical liberty) to step up to take the deeper WR. The zone floods that we're seeing are killing us. The Chiefs ran it all night. Predictability is death, and we're predicable right now. Martinez just happens to be the easiest one to exploit based on our C2 love. Oh and also he's routinely responsible for 2 gaps in run defense. It's insane what he's being asked to do right now. How the hell are you supposed to stay home on playaction when you're playing 2 gaps? Martinez isn't the problem. Edited November 25, 2019 by AlexGreen#20 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Predictability is death, and we're predicable right now. Good post - but the heart of the matter is this. The question is why. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSG Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said: Belichik gets rid of players, including very good players, at the drop of the hat when they are not as critical to the Patriots success as the money they command. From Richard Seymour, to Jamie Collins, to Chandler Jones, Malcolm Butler, Logan Ryan, etc. Belichik has made difficult decisions in moving on from some real defensive talent over the years. But Bill made sure to pay Dont'a Hightower and keep him in the middle of his defense, because Hightower truly is key to that defenses success. https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/alabama-football/bill-belichick-explains-what-makes-donta-hightower-a-special-player/ Yet that doesn't change the fact that he's been easily replaced when injured. He'd played just 1 full season as a pro and has missed on average of almost 4 games a year coming into this season. Hightower has been the starting MLB since 2016. Lets stop acting like he's been this all important MLB since day 1. That's a super bowl caliber defense with or without Hightower playing at MLB which was evident by their 2017 Super Bowl run. Yes, Belichick has gotten rid of players that he knew were going to be expensive. Dont'a Hightower isn't that. He's on an extremely affordable contract considering his versatility and the fact that he was one of New England's most effective pass rushers. I'm not saying he's a bad player, I'm saying that him playing in the middle absolutely is not the reason New England's defense is dominate. That defense is dominate regardless of who they have in the middle. Hightower is 3rd on his team at snaps at LB and it's by a pretty big margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 1 hour ago, FAH1223 said: FACTS. We haven't had an ILB who can cover since Desmond Bishop in 2010. Even Brandon Chillar was good at covering!! Zach Brown should have been signed in the Spring. Its obvious that relying on mid-late picks like Blake or Oren Burks who isn't a player, is not the right strategy. Lol. Zach Brown is a free agent right now who got cut by two teams this year. The best way to tell people you don’t know a damn thing is by saying we should have signed somebody who is currently a free agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSG Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 40 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said: Trevathan is relatively old, but actually the exact same age as Hightower. He has also been banged up and may well be past his prime. Problem for me is that Martinez is his prime is nothing more than a JAG. Do you really want to throw money at a guy just because he accumulates tackles? I'd much rather throw money at a young player like Martinez than a guy like Trevathan. You might as well be lighting that portion of the salary cap on fire for a guy who pretty clearly has shown that he absolutely is not a difference maker. That's almost like arguing that instead of extending Kenny Clark that we should sink a free agent investment into Mike Daniels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOnlyThing Posted November 25, 2019 Author Share Posted November 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, SSG said: I'd much rather throw money at a young player like Martinez than a guy like Trevathan. You might as well be lighting that portion of the salary cap on fire for a guy who pretty clearly has shown that he absolutely is not a difference maker. That's almost like arguing that instead of extending Kenny Clark that we should sink a free agent investment into Mike Daniels. I can see the comparison between Trevathan and Daniels, both once solid veterans on the downside of their careers with significant injury history. But equating the relative contributions Blake Martinez to Kenny Clark? Seriously? Clark has earned his payday and Martinez is just another guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSG Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said: I can see the comparison between Trevathan and Daniels, both once solid veterans on the downside of their careers with significant injury history. But equating the relative contributions Blake Martinez to Kenny Clark? Seriously? Clark has earned his payday and Martinez is just another guy. Clark hasn't been any better this year than Martinez. Edited November 25, 2019 by SSG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 Just now, SSG said: Clark hasn't been any better this year than Martinez this year. That's ridiculous. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar Danneskjold Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, SSG said: Clark hasn't been any better this year than Martinez. Fans don't respect players that have to play a significant number of 2 gap assignments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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