Inside Linebacker ... IT IS TIME

[KFP7]

3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

There have been very few times that I have gone back and watched a game that Martinez is a significant negative. 

Half of the upsettedness about Martinez is just blaming him for any catch over the middle. That's not how this works. When you play as much C2 as we're doing, you're asking him to cover an absolutely massive area, 20 yards wide (cut the 80 yard field into quarters) by ten yards deep (5- 15 yards from the line of scrimmage. 

That's hard enough, now understand that he's the most likely to be targeted in the C2 looks because he has this massive area to cover, and the safeties are protecting the Corners vertically. 

Now understand that because teams know what we're running because we're predicable, their concepts are stressing him by intentionally placing two targets into this huge zone. If the outside receiver runs a 13 yard in-route, and the TE runs a 7 yard drag, somebody is open unless the Safety has the wherewithal (and the tactical liberty) to step up to take the deeper WR. The zone floods that we're seeing are killing us. The Chiefs ran it all night. 

Predictability is death, and we're predicable right now. Martinez just happens to be the easiest one to exploit based on our C2 love. 

Oh and also he's routinely responsible for 2 gaps in run defense. It's insane what he's being asked to do right now. How the hell are you supposed to stay home on playaction when you're playing 2 gaps?

Martinez isn't the problem.

Bear with me cause I know nothing, but you're saying Martinez is being asked to cover two running lanes plus a huge zone that routinely has 2 routes running into it (maybe not all of these every play).  What's a healthy level of responsibility for an ILB?  If he's being asked to cover the role of 2 players, who is it that we are so desperate to help out on defense?  Especially with Clark constantly covering 2 gaps at the same time.  I'm sure it changes completely depending on offensive formations and all that.  

I have to think Jaire, Amos, and Savage are doing their part, but maybe Savage/Amos are having to bail King out constantly thus meaning they can't get Martinez more coverage help?

Or does it really come down to the IDL being so bad outside of Clark that Clark/Martinez just have to cover everything.  

And finally, is it that we are terrible at enough positions on defense that we can't cover everything, or is Pettine terrible?

 

[Striker]

Sometimes one player makes a huge difference (and a team doesn't have massive depth to fill the hole).

Edited November 25, 2019 by Striker

[AlexGreen#20]

29 minutes ago, KFP7 said:

Bear with me cause I know nothing, but you're saying Martinez is being asked to cover two running lanes plus a huge zone that routinely has 2 routes running into it (maybe not all of these every play).  What's a healthy level of responsibility for an ILB?  If he's being asked to cover the role of 2 players, who is it that we are so desperate to help out on defense?  Especially with Clark constantly covering 2 gaps at the same time.  I'm sure it changes completely depending on offensive formations and all that.  

I have to think Jaire, Amos, and Savage are doing their part, but maybe Savage/Amos are having to bail King out constantly thus meaning they can't get Martinez more coverage help?

Or does it really come down to the IDL being so bad outside of Clark that Clark/Martinez just have to cover everything.  

And finally, is it that we are terrible at enough positions on defense that we can't cover everything, or is Pettine terrible?

 

Here's an example, not Martinez, but Goodson

DBs are playing Cover-4 in the Redzone. If you've got 4 guys playing 3rd level, and you've got 4 guys rushing the passer, you only have 3 defenders on the second level, (Goodson, Martinez, and Preston Smith is going to drop). An NFL field is 54 yards wide, so each 2nd level defender is responsible for 18 yards. You don't cover the first five yards, so their zones are approximately 18 yard x 8 yard rectangles. 

Now, the Panthers have a pretty damn good idea what this is going to be from us based on film study and general NFL trends. So to counter it, they're going to run that WR on the top side into a deep in. The purpose of this isn't really to get open, so much as it is to hold King and Amos in their deep zones. 

Next, they're going to run the TE on a corner route to the front pylon. That's going to take Goodson to the deepest part of his zone. The third route in the concept is McCaffrey on the flare screen. He's going to go into the short "no-cover" zone on Goodson's side. Well because Goodson is now standing on the goal line with Olson, McCraffrey has all the space in the world. This is just an easy check down. 

He's going to catch it and eventually Martinez is going to tackle him for a gain of like 8. Cue all the Packer fans yelling at Martinez for getting beat by McCaffrey.

 

[AlexGreen#20]

Here's another one. 

We're showing Cover-2. 

The receiver at the bottom of the screen is going to run a vertical route. He wants to take Alexander all the way to the top of his zone. That's 20 yards downfield. He also wants to hold Savage deep and to the outside. 

The receiver closest to the RT inside is trying to do basically the same thing. He wants to bring King all the way to the top left of his zone. he then wants to take Amos with him as the other deep safety.

The hope is that this opens up a big gap between the safeties that the middle receiver on the trips side will take advantage of. The hope is that Tramon will pass off the receiver to air, thinking that after the receiver hits the 20 yard mark, that Tramon's job is over with. But with the Safeties spread out wide, there's no safety to pick up the receiver. Tramon keeps running, and doesn't pass it off to air.

Martinez is stuck here. Does he stay home and honor the threat of McCaffrey out of the backfield, or does he break principles of the defense and chase Olsen across the fomation? There's no winning scenario here.  He ends up staying home.  

Olsen ends up chatching the drag route for a 16 yard gain.

Again "How come our slow *** ILBs can't cover TEs??? Why is the middle of the field always open??? Rabble Rabble Rabble"

[MacReady]

That’s too complicated and Martinez has to be Batman.

[firstplace]

We have R. Gary sitting on the bench. 12th pick in the draft doing nothing. Play him in the middle! Big, fast, strong! They let Clay move inside, why not Gary?

[Golfman]

4 minutes ago, firstplace said:

We have R. Gary sitting on the bench. 12th pick in the draft doing nothing. Play him in the middle! Big, fast, strong! They let Clay move inside, why not Gary?

I don't know, change of direction, ability or lack thereof to back peddle, or read and react for instance. 

[firstplace]

Maybe, or he can't read and react! Has no instincts to play linebacker! Why did they draft him! I'm sorry but if I was going to draft a player that high he is going to play somewhere! Play a lot! Unless he was a QB.

[KFP7]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

"Lots of good football knowledge from AlexGreen removed for space"

For those two plays, is it just a perfect play-call for the defensive formation type of thing?  Based off of what you said, I don't see how any defense in the league can stop those plays if they are lined up the same way.  I guess a pass-rush getting to the QB in 3 seconds, but even then both of those completions were on short routes.  Even if the ball is out quick, and the deep coverage hasn't dropped too far yet, it's still a positive pick-up.  

[PACKRULE]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Here's another one. 

We're showing Cover-2. 

The receiver at the bottom of the screen is going to run a vertical route. He wants to take Alexander all the way to the top of his zone. That's 20 yards downfield. He also wants to hold Savage deep and to the outside. 

The receiver closest to the RT inside is trying to do basically the same thing. He wants to bring King all the way to the top left of his zone. he then wants to take Amos with him as the other deep safety.

The hope is that this opens up a big gap between the safeties that the middle receiver on the trips side will take advantage of. The hope is that Tramon will pass off the receiver to air, thinking that after the receiver hits the 20 yard mark, that Tramon's job is over with. But with the Safeties spread out wide, there's no safety to pick up the receiver. Tramon keeps running, and doesn't pass it off to air.

Martinez is stuck here. Does he stay home and honor the threat of McCaffrey out of the backfield, or does he break principles of the defense and chase Olsen across the fomation? There's no winning scenario here.  He ends up staying home.  

Olsen ends up chatching the drag route for a 16 yard gain.

Again "How come our slow *** ILBs can't cover TEs??? Why is the middle of the field always open??? Rabble Rabble Rabble"

Good posts AG well done. 

[pacman5252]

Going back to the OP 

-Roquan has had a mega sophomore slump 

-Edmunds hasn’t really been special yet

-Kendrick’s was a second round pick (and really hasn’t been great, just solid. No pro bowls in 5 years, grades lower than Blake in 18)

 

[TheOnlyThing]

3 hours ago, pacman5252 said:

Going back to the OP 

-Roquan has had a mega sophomore slump 

-Edmunds hasn’t really been special yet

-Kendrick’s was a second round pick (and really hasn’t been great, just solid. No pro bowls in 5 years, grades lower than Blake in 18)

The Packers have all but ignored the ILB position since they moved to the 3-4 defense 11 years ago.

The Packers have also had mediocre to poor defenses the past 9 seasons even though they have used their last 8 top picks on defenders (Perry, D. Jones, HHCD, Randall, Clark, King, Alexander, and Gary. A first round pick has thus been used on every position on the defense other than ILB.

I did not say the Packers necessarily needed to use their 2020 first round pick on an inside linebacker -- though I did point out that the top 7 scoring defenses in the NFL all feature ILBs who were selected in round 1 (NE, Buff, Chic, Dallas, Pitt) or round 2 (Minn) or at the top of round 3 (SF).

What I do contend, is that talent needs to be added at ILB by any means necessary (trade, free agency, the draft) because either Martinez is not very good or he playing is in the wrong defense to maximize his skills or both and the ILB play has been subpar (both this season and for several years running).

As for Roquan Smith, yes he certainly has struggled both on and off the field this season and he may turn out to be a bust.

But if Smith is in a "mega sophomore slump" as you put it and thus deserves his piss poor PFF grade of 56.2 why in the hell would any Packer fan want to give Blake Martinez a fat new contract when he is having a mega senior year slump that has resulted in a current PFF grade of 56.9?

One would think that after 4 years in GB, in his second season in Pettine's system, with improved talent around him compared to last season, and in a contract year, Blake would be balling out, but that just has not been the case. Not even close.

Regarding Edmunds, you may also be correct that he is not really special yet, but his PFF grade of 69.6 is still much superior to Martinez's grade.

As for Eric Kendricks, the guy whose diving pass deflection on 4th down inside the 10 while guarding Zeke Elliott out of the backfield sealed the Vikes win in Dallas 8 nights ago, his current PFF grade of 90.6.

Kendricks is playing (obviously in a different system) elite football and one of the key reasons the Vikes feature a top 5 scoring D.

Meanwhile, Blake is not playing anything close to elite football and a significant reason that the Packer defense is, yet again, mediocre. 

[pacman5252]

2 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

The Packers have all but ignored the ILB position since they moved to the 3-4 defense 11 years ago.

The Packers have also had mediocre to poor defenses the past 9 seasons even though they have used their last 8 top picks on defenders (Perry, D. Jones, HHCD, Randall, Clark, King, Alexander, and Gary. A first round pick has thus been used on every position on the defense other than ILB.

I did not say the Packers necessarily needed to use their 2020 first round pick on an inside linebacker -- though I did point out that the top 7 scoring defenses in the NFL all feature ILBs who were selected in round 1 (NE, Buff, Chic, Dallas, Pitt) or round 2 (Minn) or at the top of round 3 (SF).

What I do contend, is that talent needs to be added at ILB by any means necessary (trade, free agency, the draft) because either Martinez is not very good or he playing is in the wrong defense to maximize his skills or both and the ILB play has been subpar (both this season and for several years running).

As for Roquan Smith, yes he certainly has struggled both on and off the field this season and he may turn out to be a bust.

But if Smith is in a "mega sophomore slump" as you put it and thus deserves his piss poor PFF grade of 56.2 why in the hell would any Packer fan want to give Blake Martinez a fat new contract when he is having a mega senior year slump that has resulted in a current PFF grade of 56.9?

One would think that after 4 years in GB, in his second season in Pettine's system, with improved talent around him compared to last season, and in a contract year, Blake would be balling out, but that just has not been the case. Not even close.

Regarding Edmunds, you may also be correct that he is not really special yet, but his PFF grade of 69.6 is still much superior to Martinez's grade.

As for Eric Kendricks, the guy whose diving pass deflection on 4th down inside the 10 while guarding Zeke Elliott out of the backfield sealed the Vikes win in Dallas 8 nights ago, his current PFF grade of 90.6.

Kendricks is playing (obviously in a different system) elite football and one of the key reasons the Vikes feature a top 5 scoring D.

Meanwhile, Blake is not playing anything close to elite football and a significant reason that the Packer defense is, yet again, mediocre. 

I’m always for getting better and I’m not going to debate that Blake had had a subpar year. 

I will say though using a 11 game sample from 1 year of pff grades to justify your position is pretty flawed argument.  Kendricks was rated lower than Blake 2 years in a row and at points being labeled trash(Blake as a mid to upper teir player from 17-18/highest graded nfcn ilb and Kendrick’s grading in the low 60s high 50s and at times 2019 Blake levels). Grades can ebb and flow but the fact is we have seen Blake for an extended sample size seen him be graded as a mid+ teir lb. For all we know Blake is getting under utilized and is more hurt than thought. Unless he is priced out of town (very well could be) you don’t just cut bait with solid guys you control when your options are;

FA- Alternatives likely not better. We’re not getting a freak plus backer. At best Danny Trevathon who is in the same teir of guy and older.

Draft- Picking at least mid 20s we aren’t getting a good replacement unless we burn a 1. (I’d also like to point out, we’ve tried straight adding a tools player with a top 90 pick (Burks). He sucks. Plugging and playing isn’t that easy)

The only argument really for just cutting bait with Blake is scheme, which judging by the fan base Pettine is probably gone in months, which means it’s up to our new dc.

[OneTwoSixFive]

4 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

The Packers have all but ignored the ILB position since they moved to the 3-4 defense 11 years ago

Here we go again, time to debunk it (again).

2015 Jake Ryan  round 4 
2016 Blake Martinez round 4
2017 Josh Jones round 2  (hybrid ILB/S)
2018 Oren Burks round 3 (coverage ILB)

The picks haven't worked out well on the whole, but the position has most certainly not been ignored in the last five years.

[TheOnlyThing]

6 hours ago, OneTwoSixFive said:

Here we go again, time to debunk it (again).

2015 Jake Ryan  round 4 
2016 Blake Martinez round 4
2017 Josh Jones round 2  (hybrid ILB/S)
2018 Oren Burks round 3 (coverage ILB)

The picks haven't worked out well on the whole, but the position has most certainly not been ignored in the last five years.

I'll agree with you that Burks was a genuine effort to address the ILB hole by Gute.

He even traded up to pick him. Unfortunately, through 27 games it does not look like the Burks' gamble has worked out.

As for Josh Jones, who the F knows what they were doing on defense, schematically or personnel-wise, in Dom's and the previous GM's last season.

Jones certainly never wanted to play ILB and he made that clear before getting cut. He is now back to playing safety in Dallas.

Can you think of a college safety who is thriving playing ILB on a top 10 (or even top 16) defense?

As for Ryan and Martinez being selected in round 4, they were projected as JAGs when selected and they've performed as JAGs, hence the need to FINALLY, FINALLY use a higher pick or trade for or sign someone in free agency who gives the GB better than JAG play in the middle of the defense.