Soko Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Bearerofnews said: The same system that put Matt Moore, who was retired for what 3 years and hasnt started for 4, was a school teacher, came off the bench, vs 2 playoff teams and had a 100 passer rating. Same system that producing a coaching tree of some of the brightest offensive minds, same system that made an avg journeyman like Alex Smith a probowler. A whisperer when he was molding as the QB coach of Brett Favre. When he was making Eagles a top 10 scoring offense multiple times when they have well below avg talent. You are either flat out trolling or very oblivious to the landscape of the NFL and it's history. So you are unable to: A) Specifically tell me anything about what Reid’s system actually does that is so much better than anyone else’s system. B) Specifically tell me when/who called Reid the GOAT QB whisperer, prior to Mahomes. C) Specifically tell me when/who called the system the GOAT QB friendly system, prior to Mahomes. You just listed a couple things off his resume, not answering the question because I don’t think you actually have anything of substance to back up those claims you made. Edited March 8, 2020 by Yin-Yang 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 6 hours ago, Malik said: "The system" is just whatever the offensive personnel Reid currently has honestly. Andy Reid smartly putting his differnetly skilled QBs in the best position to succeed doesn't make each QB less or more talented. It just means Andy Reid is smart. Absolutely this. There is no singular Andy Reid system. If you try to watch tape of the '99 Eagles, the '04 Eagles, the '10 Eagles, the '13 Chiefs, and the '19 Chiefs, you're going to see completely different offenses. I don't think there was a version of four verticals in our playbook from 2013 - 2015. Our hail mary in 2017 was a downfield screen. Now we're known for having an aggressive passing attack. Reid's system is finding out what his players like to run, and rolling with that. If Mahomes wasn't our QB, we would have a completely different offensive scheme right now than we do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Kip Smithers said: You’re not even answering the question. You’re just referring to other guys who have had success under Reid and saying “seeeee, system”. You’re not pointing out any of the specifics, the concepts or examples of as to what makes the system successful. If you did that then you’d be taken more seriously. Off alignment skinny-slant post, multiple presnap shifts, all slants formations from 2x2 alignments, hi-lo crossers, hi-lo opposites, hi-lo triple in, a bunch of reversals, stack alignment crossers that get guys wide open every snap nearly, uses alot of window dressing as base combinations and lots of spacing. This was the case early in KC and his offense has evolved ever since. I don't care if i am taken serious on here. No one has typed a shred of anything substantial to dispute a single thing ive said. Other than lame insults, their basic opinions and "no you are wrong because we are going to play stupid and pretend like no one ever said Reid was a qb whisperer or offensive genius prior to 2 years ago". It's flat out casual-rant. I thought this place was smarter. Apparently, i was wrong. If anyone here thinks Mahomes would have the same production on any of the other 31 NFL offense's in the league... that's all i need to know, that you guys know LITERALLY nothing... no offense.. no pun intended. Edited March 8, 2020 by Bearerofnews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Yin-Yang said: So you are unable to: A) Specifically tell me anything about what Reid’s system actually does that is so much better than anyone else’s system. B) Specifically tell me when/who called Reid the GOAT QB whisperer, prior to Mahomes. C) Specifically tell me when/who called the system the GOAT QB friendly system, prior to Mahomes. You just listed a couple things off his resume, not answering the question because I don’t think you actually have anything of substance to back up those claims you made. 1. Read previous post. 2. Literally everyone. Yes Reid didnt earn his rep until 2 years ago. 🤣😂🤣 is this guy even serious? 3. Again, literally everyone. What exactly have you listed, other than empty rhetoric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 4 hours ago, ET80 said: None of this is mutually exclusive in relation to Pat Mahomes as the top QB in the NFL. Everything you outline here could be true and you'd STILL be able to say "He's the best QB in football". (The "he's throwing to less tightly covered receivers" argument is the epitome of stupidity, BTW. That's the object of the passing game - throw to the open guy. That's football 101, why is he penalized for this? I don't criticize a RB for running into a hole, or a DE getting a free rush to get a sack, or a DB getting a pick on a ball thrown right to them, do we? So why are we trying to use this against Mahomes?) NO QB does their work on an island. Brady has the greatest HC in NFL history, the 2nd best WR in NFL history, the best TE in NFL history, the best OL coach in NFL history, the best slot WR in NFL history, the 2nd best slot WR in NFL history - does that take away that Brady is the greatest QB of all time? If it does, you're understanding of football is incredibly lacking. It is though. Because these situational variances aid in his production. If his production wasnt what it was, he would not be considered the best QB in the league. Plain and simple, how are you confused by that? Sorry that isnt how it works. When a system creates the advantage and not your ability, typically guys get discredited. When DT are eating up blocks and creating massive gaps and LBs are getting free sacks, where they dont have to beat a block.. they dont get the same credit for that. Ive seen people here and all over the internet discredit them. Ive seen people discredit RB's like Smith for having great olines and having huge holes to run through vs guys like Barry who had to create their lanes. Same with QBs. What qb can't throw to open targets and its not like Mahomes has a high TT rate that has him holding on to the ball, reading multiple progressions to find the open target. HIS SYSTEM creates multiple open targets almost instantaneously. Vs QBs who arent in the same systems and need to make alot nore contested throws, because they dont have the open targets in the same allotted time to throw that Mahomes has. Yes.... yes yes yes. SITUATIONAL ADVANTAGES 100% take away from players who benefit from them vs ones who don't. In what world do they not. My God fam you are smarter than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: 1. Read previous post. That’s not a system. 6 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: 2. Literally everyone. Yes Reid didnt earn his rep until 2 years ago. 🤣😂🤣 is this guy even serious? “Literally everyone” Yet you can’t cite anyone or anything specific saying Reid’s the GOAT QB whisperer. 6 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: 3. Again, literally everyone. “Literally everyone” Yet you can’t cite anyone or anything specific saying Reid’s system (which has still yet to be defined with any accuracy) as the GOAT QB friendly system. 6 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: What exactly have you listed, other than empty rhetoric. I’m asking you to back-up the exact empty rhetoric you’re accusing others of saying. You made claims, which I listed specifically, and have yet to substantiate them. So are you just unwilling to, or unable to? I’ll assume the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 I cant with yall over this subject. Ill just let yall act wild af while i chill in the backround. Carry on with you mAhOmEs iS tHe GoAT silliness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: That’s not a system. That's exactly a system. Concepts, formations. Um what more do you need guy. 2 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: “Literally everyone” Yet you can’t cite anyone or anything specific saying Reid’s the GOAT QB whisperer. Here guy, first search i did with ya lazy self. Dated 2016 https://nesn.com/2016/01/andy-reid-has-remarkable-track-record-of-success-with-nfl-quarterbacks/ 2 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: “Literally everyone” Yet you can’t cite anyone or anything specific saying Reid’s system (which has still yet to be defined with any accuracy) as the GOAT QB friendly system. https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/1/5/16853446/afc-playoffs-influential-offense-andy-reid-kansas-city-chiefs-college-spread Again, before Mahomes 2018 season 2 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: I’m asking you to back-up the exact empty rhetoric you’re accusing others of saying. You made claims, which I listed specifically, and have yet to substantiate them. So are you just unwilling to, or unable to? I’ll assume the latter. Again, waiting for anything of substance from you. Other than "yOu aRe wRoNg" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 17 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: It is though. Because these situational variances aid in his production. If his production wasnt what it was, he would not be considered the best QB in the league. Plain and simple, how are you confused by that? Then why is it that guys in similar situations (Alex Smith, Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick - all former Reid QBs, all former top 3 selections) didn't produce at the same level as Mahomes? In just about every single measure, these guys had the same systemic advantages, personnel advantages, advantages in gameplan, etc. Yet, not a single one even came close to doing what Mahomes did, by any measure - statistically or achievement based. Why? Is it perhaps Mahomes is better than the typical QB in the Andy Reid system? 17 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: Sorry that isnt how it works. When a system creates the advantage and not your ability, typically guys get discredited. When DT are eating up blocks and creating massive gaps and LBs are getting free sacks, where they dont have to beat a block.. they dont get the same credit for that. Ive seen people here and all over the internet discredit them. Do people discredit LT because he played with Harry Carson? Ray Lewis because he played with Haloti Ngata? Mike Singletary because he played with Richard Dent? What you're saying simply doesn't exist. Please, I challenge you to find me a single example of what you're trying to argue happening in discussion. 17 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: Ive seen people discredit RB's like Smith for having great olines and having huge holes to run through vs guys like Barry who had to create their lanes. Anyone who makes this argument is basing it on the once in a lifetime ability of Barry. Ask those same people about Smith vs Thurman Thomas, Ladanian Tomlinson, Frank Gore, Curtis Martin and that argument of OL vanishes. Barry is a unicorn, so this particular argument is valid (it's flimsy and full of crap, but valid. Very important that I call that out). 17 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: Yes.... yes yes yes. SITUATIONAL ADVANTAGES 100% take away from players who benefit from them vs ones who don't. In what world do they not. My God fam you are smarter than that. In a world where you're not living in, apparently. Situational advantages exist, sure. But when you're talking about the most elite talents, they ARE the situational advantage. 15 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: I cant with yall over this subject. Ill just let yall act wild af while i chill in the backround. Carry on with you mAhOmEs iS tHe GoAT silliness. Ok, so here's where our disconnect is - I'm not calling him the GOAT, but I AM calling him the best QB in the NFL right now. Simple question for you, this is all you'll need to respond to me today - who currently is better? Give me a name. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: That's exactly a system. Concepts, formations. Um what more do you need guy. “Off alignment skinny-slant post” Present in virtually any given NFL offense. “multiple presnap shifts” Same as above. “all slants formations from 2x2 alignments, 2212/2122, same as above. “hi-lo crossers, hi-lo opposites, hi-lo triple in” In virtually every WCO... “a bunch of reversals, stack alignment crossers that get guys wide open every snap nearly, uses alot of window dressing as base combinations and lots of spacing.“ So nothing that most/many NFL offenses don’t utilize. I’m asking, again, for something specific to Andy Reid’s system. Quote Here guy, first search i did with ya lazy self. Dated 2016 https://nesn.com/2016/01/andy-reid-has-remarkable-track-record-of-success-with-nfl-quarterbacks/ This says absolutely nothing on Reid being the “greatest QB whisperer”, as you claimed. Quote https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2018/1/5/16853446/afc-playoffs-influential-offense-andy-reid-kansas-city-chiefs-college-spread Again, before Mahomes 2018 season This says absolutely nothing on Reid’s system being the “most QB friendly system ever”, as you claimed. Quote Again, waiting for anything of substance from you. Other than "yOu aRe wRoNg" I’m asking you to backup claims. Still have yet to hear anything. I never even said you were necessarily wrong - just post proof. You haven’t, and I believe, can’t. Edited March 8, 2020 by Yin-Yang 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, ET80 said: Then why is it that guys in similar situations (Alex Smith, Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick - all former Reid QBs, all former top 3 selections) didn't produce at the same level as Mahomes? In just about every single measure, these guys had the same systemic advantages, personnel advantages, advantages in gameplan, etc. Yet, not a single one even came close to doing what Mahomes did, by any measure - statistically or achievement based. Why? Is it perhaps Mahomes is better than the typical QB in the Andy Reid system? We saw Vick who is not an elite passer have an elite mvp caliber season his 1 year starting with Reid, saw a journeyman in Alex who was a multiple time probowler and even in early MVP talk. They had success beyond their ability. None are as skilled as Mahomes. Reid is a steroid for QBs. 5 minutes ago, ET80 said: Do people discredit LT because he played with Harry Carson? Ray Lewis because he played with Haloti Ngata? Mike Singletary because he played with Richard Dent? What you're saying simply doesn't exist. Please, I challenge you to find me a single example of what you're trying to argue happening in discussion. LT's success came on beating alot of chip blocks and making plays in traffic. He was the focus of the defense. Its not about playing with talent. Its about have unbalanced advantages due to a system that other players in the same position dont have. Same with Ray. Yes he got more sacks with guys like sam and ngata eating block. But Ray made plays all 3 levels. 5 minutes ago, ET80 said: Anyone who makes this argument is basing it on the once in a lifetime ability of Barry. Ask those same people about Smith vs Thurman Thomas, Ladanian Tomlinson, Frank Gore, Curtis Martin and that argument of OL vanishes. Barry is a unicorn, so this particular argument is valid (it's flimsy and full of crap, but valid. Very important that I call that out). I see it now with Zeke vs Bell vs Gurley just a couple years ago and the big advantages in oline disparity. These are critical aspects that cant be ignored. All situations are not created equally and players have to be compared at a curve. It is the reason for advanced metrics. 5 minutes ago, ET80 said: In a world where you're not living in, apparently. Situational advantages exist, sure. But when you're talking about the most elite talents, they ARE the situational advantage. That's just a lazy take. There is no proof of that either. 5 minutes ago, ET80 said: Ok, so here's where our disconnect is - I'm not calling him the GOAT, but I AM calling him the best QB in the NFL right now. Simple question for you, this is all you'll need to respond to me today - who currently is better? Give me a name. I have Mahomes right now as 2. Wilson is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: “Off alignment skinny-slant post” Present in virtually any given NFL offense. “multiple presnap shifts” Same as above. “all slants formations from 2x2 alignments, 2212/2122, same as above. “hi-lo crossers, hi-lo opposites, hi-lo triple in” In virtually every WCO... “a bunch of reversals, stack alignment crossers that get guys wide open every snap nearly, uses alot of window dressing as base combinations and lots of spacing.“ So nothing that most/many NFL offenses don’t utilize. I’m asking, again, for something specific to Andy Reid’s system. These are all SPECIFIC to Reid's system. Show me 1 offense that uses all these route concepts, scheme formations and presnap disguises and motions. Just 1. Not multiple offenses that use variations of some. Quote This says absolutely nothing on Reid being the “greatest QB whisperer”, as you claimed. Literally 2nd paragraph calls him the qb whisperer. But you are hung up on greatest? Wow you are really swinging for a vine. Quote This says absolutely nothing on Reid’s system being the “most QB friendly system ever”, as you claimed. It 100% does. But again, you are looking for it to be spelled out. Quote I’m asking you to backup claims. Still have yet to hear anything. I never even said you were necessarily wrong - just post proof. You haven’t, and I believe, can’t. You called me wrong.. so prove im wrong. Ive posted the proof. You cant prove im wrong. Because you haven't and i KNOW you cant. The onus is on you to prove im wrong, not vice versa. Edited March 8, 2020 by Bearerofnews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 Want proof.. open your eyes. Go sign up for a free trial of NFL game pass, watch 1 Mahomes game in all 22 view, then go pick any other random offense... then swear on your most valued love one... that the 2 offenses dont look COMPLETELY different and that KC's offense doeant have instantaneously multiple open targets around 40% (not an accurate number, thats a guesstimate) more than any other offense. I dont know that you will get better proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Bearerofnews said: These are all SPECIFIC to Reid's system. Show me 1 offense that uses all these route concepts, scheme formations and presnap disguises and motions. Just 1. No, they aren’t. Pretty much every NFL offense uses those concepts. You might as well google “NFL offenses for dummies” and just about all of that will come up. 1 minute ago, Bearerofnews said: Literally 2nd paragraph calls him the qb whisperer. But you are hung up on greatest? Wow you are really swinging for a vine. You said greatest, not me. That’s like saying “Brett Favre is the greatest QB of all time, literally everyone says so. Here’s an article saying Favre is great as proof.” Those are not one in the same. If you want to backtrack and just say “Reid is a great QB whisperer”, no one would push back on that. 1 minute ago, Bearerofnews said: It 100% does. But again, you are looking for it to be spelled out. It said “most QB friendly system ever”? Where? 1 minute ago, Bearerofnews said: You called me wrong.. so prove im wrong. Ive posted the proof. You cant prove im wrong. Because you haven't and i KNOW you cant. The onus is on you to prove im wrong, not vice versa. Quote where I said you’re wrong, because I didn’t. I said you haven’t posted proof specific to what you claimed, which you haven’t. Your goal thus far has been to make a statement, not back it up, and call anyone that disagrees with you ignorant. If you’re not here to discuss a topic while also refusing to post evidence of a claim, why post at all? To give insight, no. To discuss, no. To make your opinion known, that horse is dead. What’s the point? And no, that’s not how the world works. You make a claim, you provide substance. So for the final time, I’ll ask: do you have anything specific to back up what you’ve said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingseanjohn Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 12 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said: We saw Vick who is not an elite passer have an elite mvp caliber season his 1 year starting with Reid, saw a journeyman in Alex who was a multiple time probowler and even in early MVP talk. They had success beyond their ability. None are as skilled as Mahomes. Reid is a steroid for QBs. You are aware that VIck was a good player before Andy? He took the Falcons to the playoffs in 2002 and then again in 2004 reaching the NFC Championship game. Alex Smith led the 49ers to the NFC Championship in 2011 only to lose because of two special teams fumbles and then led them to a 6-2 record the next year before being injured/losing his job. He never led the Chiefs to the AFC Championship. It's not like he came to KC without any accomplishments. Both players were good before Andy worked with them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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