The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...

[ronjon1990]

7 hours ago, NYRaider said:

In his first full season as a starter he had Higgins, Chase, Boyd, and Mixon. He played like 6 or 7 games without that core around him.

The Chiefs were a contender for a couple of years with Smith, realized that he wasn't going to get them over the top, so they looked to upgrade. They were coming off of a 12-4 season with an elite defense and a great supporting cast on offense with multiple All-Pro level talents. Of course it made sense for them to be aggressive because they knew that they had the talent and depth to actually push for a championship. 

Even if we're going to move on from Carr I'd prefer to wait on drafting a QB early. Most of the star level QB's in the league went into situations where they were surrounded with talent immediately. 

1. 10 games. And they weren't especially memorable games, if one recalls. Burrow was a great prospect, but he really did not look too great. There were times his rookie year showed flashes and times it looked horrific prior to his injury. 

2. Not only this, but the Chiefs never planned for Smith to be there long term to begin with. Further, they kept him around a year before giving Mahomes the reigns. And, frankly, I'd bet they would have kept him starting for a second year if Mahomes wasn't proving to be a clear and undeniable upgrade. 

3. Very few, for sure. It's why I don't even entertain the "he doesn't elevate the guys around him" argument regarding QBs. It's nonsense and virtually nobody "elevates" an entire offense of mediocre players. Josh Allen was elevated by improved weapons. Patrick Mahomes was elevated by the fantastic weapons at his disposal from day one. Trevor "the Best Prospect Ever Give Him a Gold Jacket On Draft Day and Send the Next 5 Lombardis to Jacksonville For Good Measure" Lawrence hasn't exactly made his WRs and TEs look better than they are. Aaron Rodgers arguably the best passer to ever pass can't seem to make chicken salad out of a chicken **** WR corps. Before we even talk about drafting a QB, we need at least an elite defense or offense or both. Right now, we have neither. The RB situation is murky, our WR corps is shallow and we have no idea how guys not named Davante Adams will look next year or beyond, and the OL....wait, do we have an OL? And as far as defense, I think we have one, but it could be offensive players just switching jerseys on the sidelines. 

[BackinBlack]

5 hours ago, bucksavage1 said:

I can’t believe this even being argued…

In ALL professional team sports, the goal is to win a championship. That’s the pro mentality Is to win a championship. It’s almost like none of you heard players or coaches speak before. The competitive nature is how they all got to this level

Every team goal is to win a super bowl. There’s not one player or Coach that goes into the season goal is to only win a few games or half the games.

if that was the case, That’s means they aren’t trying every game. Then they could be replaced by someone who is trying to win.  
 

 

Would you rather win Super Bowl 1 year and then no it’s over, or build for a solid 5 year window. 
 

when coaches / owners / GMs have time and are patient they play the long game and build the roster for the long game. 
 

to claim, everyone goes all in every year to win the sb is wrong. 
good gms understand this. 
 

this is like saying every team wants to win every game… when we have seen teams tank before… where you not a big, carrs td to Ruggs against the jets doesn’t matter cause the jets lost on purpose person?

[BackinBlack]

8 hours ago, NYRaider said:

When the Texans traded away Watson was their goal to win a Super Bowl? 

Heck even the browns, made that move knowing he’d be out most of this year, but set them selves up for the future. 
 

ie, this year May be a little rough, but that’s ok cause we are setting up for a bright future with a young star QB.

 

therefore proving your fact of every teams goals is to win a Super Bowl every year is not a fact lol.

Edited November 23, 2022 by BackinBlack

[MrOaktown_56]

5 hours ago, bucksavage1 said:

What happened to the commitment to excellence?

It has been replaced by commitment to mediocrity mentality . Goal to be middle of the pack is ridiculous. 
 

If you don’t win a super bowl, the season is a failure. 

You’re the only person on the forum that thinks this. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

4 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

You’re the only person on the forum that thinks this. 

Nope he isn’t. This off-season is going to speak volumes. Mark, zieg, jmd looking like the 3 stooges this year. We are way better than a 3 win team. We barely just beat the Broncos with adams going crazy. I know y’all love this positivity trend but I need to see results. Only results so far are us not fumbling so much on offense and that we can beat the scrub teams of the nfl. 

[BackinBlack]

If this team drafts a young QB, like stroud or Young, do we all agree that there is a decent chance that a rookie would do worse his first year then Carr a 10 year vet going into year 2 in a system? Just his first year, nothing about future success. 

That should be pretty easy to agree to, but I am sure some will disagree. 

If the Raiders make a move like that (which I am open too), the idea is not about winning a SB in 2023, but setting yourself to have a good chance for the next 10 years. 

[MrOaktown_56]

1 hour ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Nope he isn’t. This off-season is going to speak volumes. Mark, zieg, jmd looking like the 3 stooges this year. We are way better than a 3 win team. We barely just beat the Broncos with adams going crazy. I know y’all love this positivity trend but I need to see results. Only results so far are us not fumbling so much on offense and that we can beat the scrub teams of the nfl. 

I’m talking about expecting to win a super bowl every year. It’s delusional. 

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

1. 10 games. And they weren't especially memorable games, if one recalls. Burrow was a great prospect, but he really did not look too great. There were times his rookie year showed flashes and times it looked horrific prior to his injury. 

2. Not only this, but the Chiefs never planned for Smith to be there long term to begin with. Further, they kept him around a year before giving Mahomes the reigns. And, frankly, I'd bet they would have kept him starting for a second year if Mahomes wasn't proving to be a clear and undeniable upgrade. 

3. Very few, for sure. It's why I don't even entertain the "he doesn't elevate the guys around him" argument regarding QBs. It's nonsense and virtually nobody "elevates" an entire offense of mediocre players. Josh Allen was elevated by improved weapons. Patrick Mahomes was elevated by the fantastic weapons at his disposal from day one. Trevor "the Best Prospect Ever Give Him a Gold Jacket On Draft Day and Send the Next 5 Lombardis to Jacksonville For Good Measure" Lawrence hasn't exactly made his WRs and TEs look better than they are. Aaron Rodgers arguably the best passer to ever pass can't seem to make chicken salad out of a chicken **** WR corps. Before we even talk about drafting a QB, we need at least an elite defense or offense or both. Right now, we have neither. The RB situation is murky, our WR corps is shallow and we have no idea how guys not named Davante Adams will look next year or beyond, and the OL....wait, do we have an OL? And as far as defense, I think we have one, but it could be offensive players just switching jerseys on the sidelines. 

He played 10 games with 3/4 and then they added Chase prior to his second season. 

Obviously you need top tier weapons to win in the modern NFL but guys like Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, etc. definitely elevate the guys around them. 

[ronjon1990]

34 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

He played 10 games with 3/4 and then they added Chase prior to his second season. 

Obviously you need top tier weapons to win in the modern NFL but guys like Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, etc. definitely elevate the guys around them. 

Do they though? I mean, appreciably more than anyone who isn't just a truly bad QB? 

We've yet to see Mahomes play with less than pretty stellar supporting cast, guys who to varying levels more than proved themselves on their own. 

Allen hasn't really elevated guys. Diggs was already good. And Allen gets it done. But who on the Bills offense would truly regress without him? 

And Rodgers is proving it this year- he's one of, if not the best to ever play QB and he's not elevating anyone's play in Green Bay. QBs are as good as the supporting cast around them. Some may look better than others, but the "they elevate" talk....way overblown 

Aside from Tom Brady, no great QB in the last 20+ years has been great without guys who were pretty freaking good with or without them. 

[drfrey13]

4 hours ago, Styrian Raider said:

There are different sorts of goals in ALL sports, and not "that one goal".
One goal is for sure to win the championship, someday.
One goal will for sure be to be better than last time or than your arch rival.

If there were only just "one goal" to achieve, then in case of football 31 teams would have to fire their HC after a season
(because they didn't achieved their goal).

Most teams will set themselves short- , mid- and long-term goals or even more. That's a progress.

I do believe that every team has the goal of winning the Super Bowl every year but like you have said it is not the only goal.  The point I believe both sides in this argument are missing or at least not communicating is the difference in goals and expectations.  Every year teams start out at 0-0 and every team at least has some sense of having a chance at wining a championship.  Now this is not the expectation for any teams because even your best teams understand a lot has to go your way to win a championship.  The goal is to win every game you play in but at the same time each team has an expectation of losing an acceptable amount of games as the year goes on based upon talent, coaching, injuries, etc....  Just like the QB and wins argument there is a spectrum in this.  Every team does start out week 1 thinking hoping and wanting to win it all because they all have a chance.  Some teams expectations and goals come crashing back to Earth faster than others.

[NYRaider]

51 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Do they though? I mean, appreciably more than anyone who isn't just a truly bad QB? 

We've yet to see Mahomes play with less than pretty stellar supporting cast, guys who to varying levels more than proved themselves on their own. 

Allen hasn't really elevated guys. Diggs was already good. And Allen gets it done. But who on the Bills offense would truly regress without him? 

And Rodgers is proving it this year- he's one of, if not the best to ever play QB and he's not elevating anyone's play in Green Bay. QBs are as good as the supporting cast around them. Some may look better than others, but the "they elevate" talk....way overblown 

Aside from Tom Brady, no great QB in the last 20+ years has been great without guys who were pretty freaking good with or without them. 

The ability to extend plays and make throws that 90% of QB’s can’t make definitely helps elevate the guys around Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, etc. They literally give guys the opportunity to make plays that they wouldn’t have had with almost any other QB in the league. I forgot that guys like Knox/Davis/McKenzie and MVS/Hardman/JuJu were top tier lol 

[ronjon1990]

47 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

The ability to extend plays and make throws that 90% of QB’s can’t make definitely helps elevate the guys around Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, etc. They literally give guys the opportunity to make plays that they wouldn’t have had with almost any other QB in the league. I forgot that guys like Knox/Davis/McKenzie and MVS/Hardman/JuJu were top tier lol 

You're grossly overrating QBs.

But you also remain steadfast that wins and losses are QB stats.... except for Carr. Then it's just losses. 

[drfrey13]

4 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

3. Very few, for sure. It's why I don't even entertain the "he doesn't elevate the guys around him" argument regarding QBs. It's nonsense and virtually nobody "elevates" an entire offense of mediocre players. Josh Allen was elevated by improved weapons. Patrick Mahomes was elevated by the fantastic weapons at his disposal from day one. Trevor "the Best Prospect Ever Give Him a Gold Jacket On Draft Day and Send the Next 5 Lombardis to Jacksonville For Good Measure" Lawrence hasn't exactly made his WRs and TEs look better than they are. Aaron Rodgers arguably the best passer to ever pass can't seem to make chicken salad out of a chicken **** WR corps. Before we even talk about drafting a QB, we need at least an elite defense or offense or both. Right now, we have neither. The RB situation is murky, our WR corps is shallow and we have no idea how guys not named Davante Adams will look next year or beyond, and the OL....wait, do we have an OL? And as far as defense, I think we have one, but it could be offensive players just switching jerseys on the sidelines. 

Not going to go to in-depth here but I will briefly give my take on this situation.

Allen:  Diggs did help but Allen starting taking huge steps in the year before Diggs got there.  The Diggs argument should be the same for Carr and Adams.  I would even say Carr should improve more because Adams is a better WR.  Wait and see what happens at the end of the year.

Mahomes:  Mahomes lost a WR that you could argue has a greater impact than any other WR in the league.  Mahomes is already at the level of production as Carrs best season while giving JuJu and Valdes-Scantling a shot at being 1,000 yard WRs.  To argue he does not elevate players is just crazy.

Rodgers:  Now this is my opinion but I think his drop off has more to do with age.  In the past when Adams was out Rodgers production and the team record have both improved dramatically.  Now I am not sure that this would have held up over the long run but that is why I say it is my opinion.

[NCOUGHMAN]

2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Do they though? I mean, appreciably more than anyone who isn't just a truly bad QB? 

We've yet to see Mahomes play with less than pretty stellar supporting cast, guys who to varying levels more than proved themselves on their own. 

Allen hasn't really elevated guys. Diggs was already good. And Allen gets it done. But who on the Bills offense would truly regress without him? 

And Rodgers is proving it this year- he's one of, if not the best to ever play QB and he's not elevating anyone's play in Green Bay. QBs are as good as the supporting cast around them. Some may look better than others, but the "they elevate" talk....way overblown 

Aside from Tom Brady, no great QB in the last 20+ years has been great without guys who were pretty freaking good with or without them. 

Drew Brees 

[BackinBlack]

50 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Not going to go to in-depth here but I will briefly give my take on this situation.

Allen:  Diggs did help but Allen starting taking huge steps in the year before Diggs got there.  The Diggs argument should be the same for Carr and Adams.  I would even say Carr should improve more because Adams is a better WR.  Wait and see what happens at the end of the year.

Mahomes:  Mahomes lost a WR that you could argue has a greater impact than any other WR in the league.  Mahomes is already at the level of production as Carrs best season while giving JuJu and Valdes-Scantling a shot at being 1,000 yard WRs.  To argue he does not elevate players is just crazy.

Rodgers:  Now this is my opinion but I think his drop off has more to do with age.  In the past when Adams was out Rodgers production and the team record have both improved dramatically.  Now I am not sure that this would have held up over the long run but that is why I say it is my opinion.

I agree with all of this, but will just say, Kelce is everything we wish Waller was and more. He is incredible. I hate him, but respect his game so much.