Frank Gore: HOFer?

[LaserFocus]

7 hours ago, Forge said:

That seems odd given that running has been de-emphasized during the 2000's to a large degree, meaning that receivers actually have to block less (3 teams in 2003 threw 60% or more of the time...this year, 13 teams throw 60% or more). Do you have support for that claim? 

Gore has 4 100 yard games in 8 total. So half the time, he was giving you 100 yfs. 2 of those were 100 yards rushing alone, which is still more efficient than what Ward did (25% to 22% of games w/100 yards or more). No, he doesn't have the bulk output that Ward does, though his efficiency is better than Ward's. And while his bulk output in the playoffs doesn't come close, Ward doesn't really match up with Gore's regular season output. And Ward can be recognized as a good player who helped his team win. I have no issue with that. That doesn't mean hall of fame though. Rod Smith has comparable stats to Ward, helped his team win...he's probably not going to the hall of fame. But he's still recognized as a good player who helped the Broncos win. 

Forgot to mention in my last response, I don't know how two 100 yard rushing games in one postseason compares to Ward's productivity in multiple postseasons, which included a SB MVP. Pro FBR lists Gore with two 100 yard rushing postseason games, both in 2012. And if we're talking about efficiency, how about the 30 or 40 yard reception Ward had in the early stages of SB43 on a bad knee? Ward tore the knee in the AFC TG versus Baltimore, and would be severely limited in SB 43, but his early big catch helped the Steelers to the early lead, which is crucial for winning that game. How about the great catch in the end zone versus Green Bay two years later in the SB, which helped fuel a Steelers comeback, and put that game in doubt late? I think that was Ward's next to last season, contributing in meaningful games, something Gore hasn't done recently.

[LaserFocus]

4 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

NFL Films romanticizes most of their content based on the story they want to tell and how they want it to be told. It isn't just NFL Yearbook. It's also NFL Films Presents, The Timeline, NFL Game of the Week, A Football Life, Lost Treasures, NFL's Greatest Games, etc. Maybe the only one that doesn't fit is Football Follies. Providing one example of their stylized content isn't being confused. Saying Ward is arguably the greatest blocking receiver ever because NFL Films said so is not a very good argument though. I mean, come on now. 

Ricky Watters scored 5 touchdowns in a game with over 100 rushing yards in a rout against the New York Giants in 1993. Hines Ward has never come close to producing a game like that in the playoffs. He also scored three touchdowns in the Super Bowl. 

Jamal Lewis has had a couple of 100 yard games in his playoff career including the Super Bowl where he scored a TD.

Corey Dillon I can give you. By the time he got to the playoffs he was already 30 years old. And in runningback years that is basically when you start breaking down. Still during his 2004 campaign he played very well in the playoffs. 

But my point about those players was regarding having rings along with a quality resume to get into the HOF, yet it still not helping their cause. They all had good games in the playoffs, just about as good if not better than what Ward did with more opportunities in the playoffs. Ward played in 18 playoff games and had 1,181 yards to go along with 10 touchdowns. With 5 of those 18 games going over 100 yards, never scoring twice in a game. That's about on par for what he would do in a season for you at the height of his powers. Good player. Not great. 

And this entire blocking claim is starting to get ridiculous. Okay it's considered by most people invested in the sport he was a good, maybe great blocker at his position. But there is no "blocking became more important in the 2000s" rhetoric that you seem to be believe in. Who told you this? NFL Films? Blocking for receivers has always been an important trait of a quality wide receiver. Long before Ward was on the scene in 1998. Ward being good at his job didn't convince zillions of players and coaches that came before him "you know, maybe there is something special to this WR blocking thing after all!!!".  

Ward was never the best receiver in the NFL at any point in his career. He never lead the NFL in any major category for his position. If you were to let him in, then you open the door to guys like Rod Smith, Toomer, Mason, Driver, Boldin, Jimmy Smith, Moulds etc. And Ward wasn't better than all of those guys.

NFL Films has too much credibility to start making up content, their segment on Ward realistically stated the impact of his career on the NFL. We all saw it with our own eyes, John Maddon raved about Ward's blocking ability, and he's not exactly a Steelers fan. I never suggested Ward invented WR blocking, but the fact remains, his level of expertise brought more attention to this trait, and that impacted the sport. During the 2000s, his name was consistently mentioned in football circles as the standard in WR blocking, and that was changing the game, or having a significant impact. Along with other impressive qualities, that's a HOF talent.

Ricky Watters had one good postseason, and even Timmy Smith had a monster game in the SB. Watters is best remembered for his comments in Philadelphia, didn't always give his best effort. Along with Jamal Lewis, what did they do in other postseasons? Ward had big games in other postseasons, and a SB MVP. Ward had multiple postseason games in different seasons, a big difference. Timing is everything in the postseason, and Ward delivered in winning fashion. Whether it was his sensational game in the playoff comeback win over Cleveland in 2003, or taking down Seattle on the biggest stage, that's what HOF players do. It was quality over quantity, and Ward was a key component of a SB contender for several years, another quality of a HOF selection.

Toomer and Driver are light on the receptions totals, Derrick Mason and Eric Moulds never won anything, and I addressed Rod Smith and Boldin in a response to Forge. Jimmy Smith has so many off field issues, he elected to retire instead of taking a blood test. Brandon Marshall is another troublemaker who somehow never played in a postseason game.

We probably need a separate thread on Hines Ward.   

 

[DLF54927]

Not a chance, IMO. 

I'm guessing he'll be viewed like Derrick Mason.

 

[Danger]

19 hours ago, disaacs said:

I wonder how we got on the discussion of Hines Ward.  Hines Ward is way down my list of potential HOF candidates.  He doesn't have a legitimate shot, because you have to grade him against his contemporaries, and he's far dwarfed by them.  TO, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Isaac Bruce, Steve Smith, and Torry Holt could all be considered his contemporaries (you could also throw Andre Johnson in there as well) and they all far surpass him in most statistical categories. 

I don't believe you can legitimately make the comparison that Gore's situation is similar to Ward, because of the contemporary player angle.  Gore is far higher on the board of his contemporaries at RB than Ward is among his contemporaries at WR.  

You can see it even more clearly when you see the comparative players to each on their pro-football-reference page.  Ward is most comparable to Keenan McCardell, Harold Jackson and Anquan Boldin, none of whom are HOFers, while Gore is most comparable to Corey Dillon, Floyd Little and Jerome Bettis...2 out of 3 who are HOFers.   

2005: 32nd
2006: 3rd
2007: 15th
2008: 13th
2009: 9th
2010: 10th
2011: 14th
2012: 10th
2013: 12th
2014: 11th
2015: 21st
2016: 18th

That's all you need to see that Frank Gore isn't a Hall of Famer
He cracked the top 5, 1 time in his career. The Top 8, once, in his career. If all 32 teams have a starting running back, that means he only broke the top quarter of starters 1 time. He's still middle of the pack. If you wanted to be generous, you could say he was top 10 four times.
His TD numbers even further magnify this point. 

[DLF54927]

Gore hasn't finished top 10 in YFS since 2009. 

There are a lot of mediocre RBs that have had better years in that time.

 

 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

43 minutes ago, LaserFocus said:

NFL Films has too much credibility to start making up content, their segment on Ward realistically stated the impact of his career on the NFL. We all saw it with our own eyes, John Maddon raved about Ward's blocking ability, and he's not exactly a Steelers fan. I never suggested Ward invented WR blocking, but the fact remains, his level of expertise brought more attention to this trait, and that impacted the sport. During the 2000s, his name was consistently mentioned in football circles as the standard in WR blocking, and that was changing the game, or having a significant impact. Along with other impressive qualities, that's a HOF talent.

Ricky Watters had one good postseason, and even Timmy Smith had a monster game in the SB. Watters is best remembered for his comments in Philadelphia, didn't always give his best effort. Along with Jamal Lewis, what did they do in other postseasons? Ward had big games in other postseasons, and a SB MVP. Ward had multiple postseason games in different seasons, a big difference. Timing is everything in the postseason, and Ward delivered in winning fashion. Whether it was his sensational game in the playoff comeback win over Cleveland in 2003, or taking down Seattle on the biggest stage, that's what HOF players do. It was quality over quantity, and Ward was a key component of a SB contender for several years, another quality of a HOF selection.

Toomer and Driver are light on the receptions totals, Derrick Mason and Eric Moulds never won anything, and I addressed Rod Smith and Boldin in a response to Forge. Jimmy Smith has so many off field issues, he elected to retire instead of taking a blood test. Brandon Marshall is another troublemaker who somehow never played in a postseason game.

We probably need a separate thread on Hines Ward.   

 

- I never said NFL Films made up content. I said they romanticized it. Those are two different things. 

- John Madden says a lot of things on television. Just like a lot of other broadcasters do. So what. 

- Where did I claim that you claimed that Ward invented blocking? What? 

- Ward didn't bring a level of expertise into the NFL regarding blocking for wide receivers before 1998. The NFL had been around 78 years by that point with dozens of coaches and players. Ward didn't stumble upon something extra that he wasn't already figured out by someone else or that he didn't emulate from someone else. He blocked and was good at it. But he wasn't revolutionary. Unless you'd like to describe what he did? 

- Watters had a few good postseason games. He had 6 out of 11 where he had over 100 yards from scrimmage, scoring twice in three of those games. He was very good in 1993 and 1994 overall. Timmy Smith had one good NFL game ever. Comparing the two players are ridiculous even if you just take the playoffs. He was a very good player and while he did make that statement in Philadelphia, that doesn't define his career unless you either didn't see him play or have an agenda against him. This isn't Freddie Mitchell we're talking about. 

- Ward has a Super Bowl MVP. Ok. Watters could have easily had his Super Bowl MVP if Steve Young didn't throw six touchdowns, three of them to Watters! Same with Jamal Lewis who could have had an MVP with the game he had against the Giants in Super Bowl 35. And that wasn't his only good playoff game. You know who also has a Super Bowl MVP? Malcolm Smith. Dexter Jackson. Desmond Howard. Larry Brown. Super Bowl MVP shouldn't be as big a deal for enshrinement as you're making it out to be. Anyone can shine in the Super Bowl.

- Derrick Mason and Eric Moulds never played on the Steelers. What, if they replace Ward the Steelers can't get a title? Toomer and Driver don't have as many receptions. Neither does Sharpe or Moore, and they were far better receivers than Ward was. Ward, like Toomer and Driver never led the NFL in any major statistic for their position. So Jimmy Smith wasn't a better receiver than Ward because he retired and had drug problems in his career? That's like saying Pat Swilling was better than Lawrence Taylor. Smith, like Lawrence had problems with cocaine. He wasn't taking steroids. Yeah I don't see Ward going off for nearly 300 receiving yards against the Ravens defense in 2000.

 

Done talking about Ward and his "case" for the HOF. This is beyond absurd. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

35 minutes ago, DLF54927 said:

Gore hasn't finished top 10 in YFS since 2009. 

There are a lot of mediocre RBs that have had better years in that time.

 

 

True. If you're just counting running backs and not receivers for YFS it's 2012 though. Too bad once Harbaugh came his offense basically snuffed out Gore's opportunities as a receiver. Before then he was doing fairly well in the yardage department for runners catching the ball. 

[Forge]

2 hours ago, LaserFocus said:

Blocking by a WR is also important in pass pro and for other receivers when they catch the ball. During the 2000s, blocking at the WR position was emphasized and noticed more, and Hines Ward was the top dog in this area. Putting aside the countless TV broadcasts where announcers like John Madden(not exactly a Steelers fan) brought this up, but scouting reports for individual players also included this. I've been involved in all levels of football, and it's factual to say the importance of blocking for receivers reached new awareness in the 2000s, and Ward played a key role in this occurrence. Anytime you hear "Larry Fitzgerald is now excelling in the Hines Ward role", that's part of a legacy.

Rod Smith was terrific, and I would have no problem with him eventually gaining HOF entrance. Boldin is a similar player to Ward, but never won a SB MVP, and wasn't the all time franchise leader of a storied franchise. Hines Ward had the slightly better career.    

I really want something to support this, because otherwise its just scuttle. Is it more noticeable? Yes, but you haven't given me anything that would say that is because of Ward as opposed to just the proliferation of media during the 2000's. There were tenacious blockers who played wide receiver well before Ward. Art Monk was a great blocker all the way back in the 80's. Jerry Rice was. Chris Carter. Amani Toomer was a great blocking receiver coming out of Michigan. There's just nothing you have provided that tells me that coaches and the like are emphasizing this more in modern day than they did in say the 80's. You haven't given me anything that says that in the 80's and 90's scouts didn't acknowledge this when scouting prospects yet they do now. I honestly don't know how you can either way, so that's unfortunate because we just don't have the information. Ward was a great blocking receiver, but I haven't been given anything that shows that he "revolutionized" the position as you claim. Even if there was an increase in awareness as you claim, there's nothing to support that Ward is the one responsible for that. Also, I have never heard Larry Fitzgerald is "excelling in the Hines Ward" role, but I don't watch an absolute ton of Cardinals games. 

Also, I think it matters very little about Ward being the all time leader in a storied franchise. Gore is the all time leading rusher in a storied franchise.  If those numbers don't hold up against his contemporaries then it really doesn't matter. The super bowl mvp is a nice feather in the cap, and maybe eventually that will be something that pushes him over the edge, because right now he's in a glut of wide receivers that are all very similar. Claiming Ward had a better career is entirely subjective. Boldin had more receptions, more yards in fewer games, only 3 fewer touchdowns. He has very similar post season numbers, and he was more dominant in his super bowl run than Ward was in any of his. So it's really a take your pick situation. 

[DLF54927]

11 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

True. If you're just counting running backs and not receivers for YFS it's 2012 though. Too bad once Harbaugh came his offense basically snuffed out Gore's opportunities as a receiver. Before then he was doing fairly well in the yardage department for runners catching the ball. 

That still doesn't help him.  Finishing behind Lacy, Mathews, Morris, etc in multiple years will pretty much end his HOF bid.

 

For those advocating Gore for the HOF, how many backs of the last decade are you inducting?

 

[Forge]

3 hours ago, LaserFocus said:

Forgot to mention in my last response, I don't know how two 100 yard rushing games in one postseason compares to Ward's productivity in multiple postseasons, which included a SB MVP. Pro FBR lists Gore with two 100 yard rushing postseason games, both in 2012. And if we're talking about efficiency, how about the 30 or 40 yard reception Ward had in the early stages of SB43 on a bad knee? Ward tore the knee in the AFC TG versus Baltimore, and would be severely limited in SB 43, but his early big catch helped the Steelers to the early lead, which is crucial for winning that game. How about the great catch in the end zone versus Green Bay two years later in the SB, which helped fuel a Steelers comeback, and put that game in doubt late? I think that was Ward's next to last season, contributing in meaningful games, something Gore hasn't done recently.

You know those aren't "efficiency", right? 

Again, Ward has some nice games in the playoffs, no doubt. But his overall numbers in the post season aren't anything special. He threw out some duds as well. And I don't think that the hall of fame voters are going back and thinking about a single individual play like a random 30 yard reception in the super bowl. Terrell Owens had the catch 2 against green bay, and played a super bowl on a broken leg (and had a great game at that) . And I think that you are greatly over emphasizing the italicized with regards to the voters. Can't say for sure, because I'm not in that room, but I don't think this is going to be as big as you believe it is. I don't think that they are managing it on that small of a level. 

I get that you're going all out for your guy, and I can respect that. Like I said, I don't have any issues with Ward eventually getting in, though I don't think that he will. It's just that some of the things you've said are odd; they are either opinion and something that can't be supported, or wrong. In another thread, you claimed Gore was a compiler but Bettis wasn't. You can even put Ward in the compiler category - his yards per game average is outside of the top 100 for wide receivers. Well below comparable guys like Boldin (31),  Holt (7), Bruce (tied with Boldin at 31),  Andre Johnson (15), etc.  Personally, I don't think that I'd put Gore, Bettis or Ward in my hall of fame, but that's just my opinion. The hall of fame has made some questionable decisions in the past, and they have put some comparable guys in, which gives guys like this a chance (or in Bettis' case, already in). 

[Forge]

8 minutes ago, DLF54927 said:

That still doesn't help him.  Finishing behind Lacy, Mathews, Morris, etc in multiple years will pretty much end his HOF bid.

 

For those advocating Gore for the HOF, how many backs of the last decade are you inducting?

 

I'm not advocating for Gore (I'm trying to look at it from outside of the scope of my own opinion and what I think the HOF committee will do, and I do think he'll have a legit shot in that room), but Peterson is probably the only lock for me on my personal opinion. Shady is close - he needs about 3 more years of similar production to what he has had for me to get there. Charles and Foster were hall of fame caliber talents in my opinions, but I Think that their injuries would upend my support of them personally - I didn't like TD getting in, so I'm not sure how I can advocate for them. MJD is like the less compiled version of Gore in my opinion, so that's a no. I'm trying to think of others, but I'm drawing a blank. I think Chris Johnson is closer than you would suspect, but I don't think I'd say yes on that. 

[bluemushrooms]

Think he'd need a few more seasons of 1,000 yds to get in.

 

Talent-wise he can't get into the HOF.  Production wise...he's close but needs more to outweigh the lack of talent.

[DLF54927]

Forte, AD, Charles, McCoy and Foster.

When healthy, I think Forte is the only one that'd be argued being behind Gore, and even then, it isn't like a that'd be a landslide vote.

I just don't see anything that stands out for Gore and that's because there isn't one to be seen. Consistently above average and healthy do not merit the Hall, IMO. If you think so, then maybe one should be pounding the table for Warrick Dunn as well.

 

[LaserFocus]

10 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

- I never said NFL Films made up content. I said they romanticized it. Those are two different things. 

- John Madden says a lot of things on television. Just like a lot of other broadcasters do. So what. 

- Where did I claim that you claimed that Ward invented blocking? What? 

- Ward didn't bring a level of expertise into the NFL regarding blocking for wide receivers before 1998. The NFL had been around 78 years by that point with dozens of coaches and players. Ward didn't stumble upon something extra that he wasn't already figured out by someone else or that he didn't emulate from someone else. He blocked and was good at it. But he wasn't revolutionary. Unless you'd like to describe what he did? 

- Watters had a few good postseason games. He had 6 out of 11 where he had over 100 yards from scrimmage, scoring twice in three of those games. He was very good in 1993 and 1994 overall. Timmy Smith had one good NFL game ever. Comparing the two players are ridiculous even if you just take the playoffs. He was a very good player and while he did make that statement in Philadelphia, that doesn't define his career unless you either didn't see him play or have an agenda against him. This isn't Freddie Mitchell we're talking about. 

- Ward has a Super Bowl MVP. Ok. Watters could have easily had his Super Bowl MVP if Steve Young didn't throw six touchdowns, three of them to Watters! Same with Jamal Lewis who could have had an MVP with the game he had against the Giants in Super Bowl 35. And that wasn't his only good playoff game. You know who also has a Super Bowl MVP? Malcolm Smith. Dexter Jackson. Desmond Howard. Larry Brown. Super Bowl MVP shouldn't be as big a deal for enshrinement as you're making it out to be. Anyone can shine in the Super Bowl.

- Derrick Mason and Eric Moulds never played on the Steelers. What, if they replace Ward the Steelers can't get a title? Toomer and Driver don't have as many receptions. Neither does Sharpe or Moore, and they were far better receivers than Ward was. Ward, like Toomer and Driver never led the NFL in any major statistic for their position. So Jimmy Smith wasn't a better receiver than Ward because he retired and had drug problems in his career? That's like saying Pat Swilling was better than Lawrence Taylor. Smith, like Lawrence had problems with cocaine. He wasn't taking steroids. Yeah I don't see Ward going off for nearly 300 receiving yards against the Ravens defense in 2000.

 

Done talking about Ward and his "case" for the HOF. This is beyond absurd. 

Maybe we can pick this up after Ward is inducted in a separate thread. When experts like John Madden and many others praise someone for a trait which didn't get much recognition in years past, that's meaningful. Yes, it was occasionally brought up that Art Monk, and a few other guys could block well. But there's no doubt whatsoever blocking by the WR position received more attention in the 2000s, and that's largely due to Hines Ward. He impacted the game in a different way, and along with other strong credentials, will get him into Canton eventually. He wasn't good, but great. I don't recall HOF defenders like Ed Reed and Rod Woodson getting lit up by other receivers in blocking situations.

The problem here, is we don't have a way to quantify the blocking success, so that frustrates people. Just watch the games, the evidence was on tape, it wasn't hype. It's not logical to compare a WR to a RB, Ricky Watters was a problem child. And many of the SB MVPs are HOF players if we did the math. And we can't speculate on what Mason and Moulds might have done on the Steelers, it's not the reality we're living in. Ward's stats would have been better in a warmer climate, so we should always remember that we doing these comparisons. I hope you're not comparing LT with Jimmy Smith! LT is arguably the greatest defensive player of all time, Jimmy Smith was just a very good receiver who bailed on his team. Sure, Smith had a great game against the Ravens in 2000, but where was the great game against Baltimore in the playoffs later that season?       

[LaserFocus]

10 hours ago, Forge said:

I really want something to support this, because otherwise its just scuttle. Is it more noticeable? Yes, but you haven't given me anything that would say that is because of Ward as opposed to just the proliferation of media during the 2000's. There were tenacious blockers who played wide receiver well before Ward. Art Monk was a great blocker all the way back in the 80's. Jerry Rice was. Chris Carter. Amani Toomer was a great blocking receiver coming out of Michigan. There's just nothing you have provided that tells me that coaches and the like are emphasizing this more in modern day than they did in say the 80's. You haven't given me anything that says that in the 80's and 90's scouts didn't acknowledge this when scouting prospects yet they do now. I honestly don't know how you can either way, so that's unfortunate because we just don't have the information. Ward was a great blocking receiver, but I haven't been given anything that shows that he "revolutionized" the position as you claim. Even if there was an increase in awareness as you claim, there's nothing to support that Ward is the one responsible for that. Also, I have never heard Larry Fitzgerald is "excelling in the Hines Ward" role, but I don't watch an absolute ton of Cardinals games. 

Also, I think it matters very little about Ward being the all time leader in a storied franchise. Gore is the all time leading rusher in a storied franchise.  If those numbers don't hold up against his contemporaries then it really doesn't matter. The super bowl mvp is a nice feather in the cap, and maybe eventually that will be something that pushes him over the edge, because right now he's in a glut of wide receivers that are all very similar. Claiming Ward had a better career is entirely subjective. Boldin had more receptions, more yards in fewer games, only 3 fewer touchdowns. He has very similar post season numbers, and he was more dominant in his super bowl run than Ward was in any of his. So it's really a take your pick situation. 

All I can say is to watch the games, and listen to the experts during that time period. When everyone is referring to Hines Ward as the example, all the way down to the college level, that's real impact. I don't think it was lazy reporting, or some kind of misleading information. It's too bad we don't have detailed blocking stats, because they would confirm what many saw during that time. Agree about other receivers being fine blockers, but Chris Carter never won a SB. Ward just took this trait to a different level, delivering shattering blocks to HOF defenders like Ed Reed and Rod Woodson.

And being the leader for a storied franchise is important, because not all franchises are equal. When a HOF candidate surpasses other greats, or other excellent players to be the leader of a very successful franchise, that should carry more weight. I do like the fact Gore is the Niners rusher leader, but he is compiling since leaving SF.