Calvin Johnson elected as first-ballot Hall of Famer

[NFL_Fan]

2 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Is Antonio Brown a 1st ballot Hall of Famer?

yes. but might get some hate so it might take a few more years then a guy like calvin. brown set records...2014 he was insane...sucks he did all this to himself but all well.. he has money to wipe away his tears lmaoooo

[Nnivolcm]

3 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Is Antonio Brown a 1st ballot Hall of Famer?

1st ballot punter punter. I don't think he's a first ballot hall of famer though.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

2 minutes ago, NFL_Fan said:

yes. but might get some hate so it might take a few more years then a guy like calvin. brown set records...2014 he was insane...sucks he did all this to himself but all well.. he has money to wipe away his tears lmaoooo

Interesting.

I guess it's just tough for me... one of those "slippery slope" things. If the standard is that Calvin is a 1st ballot HOFer, so are guys like Antonio Brown.

Antonio Brown:
139 Games
886 Receptions
11,746 Receiving Yards
79 Receiving TDs
13 Games (Playoffs)
59 Receptions (Playoffs)
918 Receiving Yards (Playoffs)
6 Receiving TDs (Playoffs)

Calvin Johnson:
135 Games
731 Receptions
11,619 Receiving Yards
83 Receiving TDs
2 Games (Playoffs)
20 Receptions (Playoffs)
296 Receiving Yards (Playoffs)
2 Receiving TDs (Playoffs)

How you would put one in and not the other is beyond me.

[Nnivolcm]

13 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Interesting.

I guess it's just tough for me... one of those "slippery slope" things. If the standard is that Calvin is a 1st ballot HOFer, so are guys like Antonio Brown.

Antonio Brown:
139 Games
886 Receptions
11,746 Receiving Yards
79 Receiving TDs
13 Games (Playoffs)
59 Receptions (Playoffs)
918 Receiving Yards (Playoffs)
6 Receiving TDs (Playoffs)

Calvin Johnson:
135 Games
731 Receptions
11,619 Receiving Yards
83 Receiving TDs
2 Games (Playoffs)
20 Receptions (Playoffs)
296 Receiving Yards (Playoffs)
2 Receiving TDs (Playoffs)

How you would put one in and not the other is beyond me.

When you only look at numbers they look similar, but when you look at the context you start to see why Megatron has such a stronger argument.

Context like: starting QBs, head coaches, other offensive threats, off field issues, etc.

 

[BarryTheBest]

7 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Is Antonio Brown a 1st ballot Hall of Famer?

I think character goes a long way in voters mind's, which is why it took TO so long to get in. From a stat perspective, Brown is probably a HOFer in my mind, but it is going to take voters years to remember that because he spent the last few years in the media for all the wrong reasons. In Calvin's case, all voters remember is his dominance and humble self. Those kind of people will always get in before folks like AB.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

41 minutes ago, BarryTheBest said:

I think character goes a long way in voters mind's, which is why it took TO so long to get in. From a stat perspective, Brown is probably a HOFer in my mind, but it is going to take voters years to remember that because he spent the last few years in the media for all the wrong reasons. In Calvin's case, all voters remember is his dominance and humble self. Those kind of people will always get in before folks like AB.

And that makes sense.

So, I had to research more of this. Here's a conversation between Gregg Rosenthal and Commissioner Roger Goodell:

"The Pro Football Hall of Fame bases enshrinement on only one factor:  on-field achievements and contributions to the game.  The Commissioner disagrees with that approach.

“I do believe that it’s more than just how you conduct yourself on the field,” Goodell said.  “I believe very firmly that it’s how you conduct yourself on and off the field as a member of the National Football League.  That’s part of your contribution to the game.”

Pete Fierle, the Manager of Digital Media and Communications at the Pro Football Hall of Fame, quoted to me via phone on Wednesday the applicable portion of the bylaws:  “The only criteria for election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame are a nominee’s achievements and contributions as a player, coach, or contributor in professional football in the United States of America.”  As a result, whether and to what extent a player, coach, or contributor has conducted himself (or, in theory, herself) in an illegal or otherwise unbecoming manner off the field currently has no bearing on whether the player, coach, or contributor will have a bronze bust in Canton."

It's interesting. (And, really, I don't know either way.) If character plays a role, Calvin and not Brown makes sense. If it's not character, I don't think Brown should have to wait, based on Calvin's induction. I guess we'll see.

[BarryTheBest]

34 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

And that makes sense.

So, I had to research more of this. Here's a conversation between Gregg Rosenthal and Commissioner Roger Goodell:

"The Pro Football Hall of Fame bases enshrinement on only one factor:  on-field achievements and contributions to the game.  The Commissioner disagrees with that approach.

“I do believe that it’s more than just how you conduct yourself on the field,” Goodell said.  “I believe very firmly that it’s how you conduct yourself on and off the field as a member of the National Football League.  That’s part of your contribution to the game.”

Pete Fierle, the Manager of Digital Media and Communications at the Pro Football Hall of Fame, quoted to me via phone on Wednesday the applicable portion of the bylaws:  “The only criteria for election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame are a nominee’s achievements and contributions as a player, coach, or contributor in professional football in the United States of America.”  As a result, whether and to what extent a player, coach, or contributor has conducted himself (or, in theory, herself) in an illegal or otherwise unbecoming manner off the field currently has no bearing on whether the player, coach, or contributor will have a bronze bust in Canton."

It's interesting. (And, really, I don't know either way.) If character plays a role, Calvin and not Brown makes sense. If it's not character, I don't think Brown should have to wait, based on Calvin's induction. I guess we'll see.

Good research there. My biggest objection to this is that yes, the bylaws state that on field achievements are the sole criteria, but the people still have to be voted in. The voters will always consider character subconsciously or otherwise when casting. Going back to TO, he should have been a first ballet inductee with out question, yet he waited 5 years to get in... The bylaws seem more like guidelines to me. 

[Nnivolcm]

That's great and all. But the Hall of Fame is made by people not computers. Off field certainly plays into 1st ballot or not. Just ask TO.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

18 minutes ago, BarryTheBest said:

Good research there. My biggest objection to this is that yes, the bylaws state that on field achievements are the sole criteria, but the people still have to be voted in. The voters will always consider character subconsciously or otherwise when casting. Going back to TO, he should have been a first ballet inductee with out question, yet he waited 5 years to get in... The bylaws seem more like guidelines to me. 

Makes a lot of sense. Good points.

[Uncle Buck]

On 2/7/2021 at 10:20 AM, Superduperman said:

You know what will also be on players minds if the Lions don't fix this, is how out of the Lions' three best players of the modern era, two of them retired with potential years left to play, and the Lions making it clear publicly that they would never trade them, and one wanted out of town and the Lions graciously sent him exactly where he wanted to go. I'll leave it to you to speculate on what the difference is between those guys, because I'm sure you'll all howl with indignant outrage if I spell it out. But don't think for a second that difference is lost on a huge segment of NFL players. The Lions need to accommodate Calvin. Fair or unfair.

I'll speculate on it.  The difference is that one of them plays quarterback, and that is a position where the Lions might very possibly be able to replace in a deep draft class with a high pick.

It's also possible that ownership knew that they were going to have a new head coach next season and they figured the new coach would possibly want to get his own guy to lead the offense. 

Matthew Stafford is also a player who, although very good, is not a first ballot Hall of Famer who simply cannot be replaced.  Barry and Calvin were.  I can absolutely envision a scenario where a new coach comes in and thinks, "Stafford is good, but I wish I had a player who is younger, with a different skill set to work within my offense."  Now, envision a new coach coming in and saying the same thing about Barry Sanders or Calvin Johnson.  The thought is pretty laughable.  When you have players of that caliber, you tailor your offense to work around them, not the other way around. 

In addition to that, the other two hadn't suffered neck injuries, something that could very well have scared the team about the player's future. 

You see, there very well could be good reasons why team owners make the decisions they do.  I would say that far more often than not, the reasons rise above and beyond what would prompt you to pull out that extremely worn out card.

By the way, congratulations to the great Calvin Johnson on his induction into the NFL Hall of Fame!  The honor is very well deserved.  It made me happy that T.O. had to wait.  It just shows that being a good team mate is worth something more than just the stats a player puts up.  In addition to being one of the best to ever play the position, Calvin always conducted himself with total class, and those are the kind of guys we need to put on a pedestal these days, not knuckleheads like T.O.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Uncle Buck

[Uncle Buck]

On 2/13/2021 at 2:32 PM, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Interesting.

I guess it's just tough for me... one of those "slippery slope" things. If the standard is that Calvin is a 1st ballot HOFer, so are guys like Antonio Brown.

Antonio Brown:
139 Games
886 Receptions
11,746 Receiving Yards
79 Receiving TDs
13 Games (Playoffs)
59 Receptions (Playoffs)
918 Receiving Yards (Playoffs)
6 Receiving TDs (Playoffs)

Calvin Johnson:
135 Games
731 Receptions
11,619 Receiving Yards
83 Receiving TDs
2 Games (Playoffs)
20 Receptions (Playoffs)
296 Receiving Yards (Playoffs)
2 Receiving TDs (Playoffs)

How you would put one in and not the other is beyond me.

Ask Raiders fans.  They might have something to say on the subject.

[Superduperman]

1 hour ago, Uncle Buck said:

I'll speculate on it.  The difference is that one of them plays quarterback, and that is a position where the Lions might very possibly be able to replace in a deep draft class with a high pick.

It's also possible that ownership knew that they were going to have a new head coach next season and they figured the new coach would possibly want to get his own guy to lead the offense. 

Matthew Stafford is also a player who, although very good, is not a first ballot Hall of Famer who simply cannot be replaced.  Barry and Calvin were.  I can absolutely envision a scenario where a new coach comes in and thinks, "Stafford is good, but I wish I had a player who is younger, with a different skill set to work within my offense."  Now, envision a new coach coming in and saying the same thing about Barry Sanders or Calvin Johnson.  The thought is pretty laughable.  When you have players of that caliber, you tailor your offense to work around them, not the other way around. 

In addition to that, the other two hadn't suffered neck injuries, something that could very well have scared the team about the player's future. 

You see, there very well could be good reasons why team owners make the decisions they do.  I would say that far more often than not, the reasons rise above and beyond what would prompt you to pull out that extremely worn out card.

By the way, congratulations to the great Calvin Johnson on his induction into the NFL Hall of Fame!  The honor is very well deserved.  It made me happy that T.O. had to wait.  It just shows that being a good team mate is worth something more than just the stats a player puts up.  In addition to being one of the best to ever play the position, Calvin always conducted himself with total class, and those are the kind of guys we need to put on a pedestal these days, not knuckleheads like T.O.

Nice wall of text there. The more mental gymnastics one has to do to pretend it's just a "card," the more obvious it is.

[Uncle Buck]

Just now, Superduperman said:

Nice wall of text there. The more mental gymnastics one has to do to pretend it's just a "card," the more obvious it is.

More mental gymnastics, or a long list of reasons to back up what I'm saying?  Are you saying that if I only gave one reason it would have made for a better argument?  Ok.  Sure.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

11 minutes ago, Superduperman said:

Nice wall of text there. The more mental gymnastics one has to do to pretend it's just a "card," the more obvious it is.

I mean, if the "wall of text" is right...

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

I love how "making it right with Calvin" is "paying him money that he never earned". They even let him keep most of it, despite his early retirement. No way.