Raiders Roster Differences Comparison(Who would you rather have)

[Jeremy408]

I think the best way to find out whether or not the Raiders improved as a roster is to look at each addition/ differences on the roster and compare it to what we had before. 

Here is the one rule: You have to pick one or the other you can't say something like "We don't know that yet" or "I can't choose"

So I'm going to ask the question who would you rather have from top to bottom:

Offensive Differences

#2 running back: Devonta Booker or Kenyan Drake?

Veteran Wide Receiver: Nelson Aguilar or John Brown?

Center: Rodney Hudson or Andre James? 

Left Guard: Denzel good(Richie incognito didn't play last year) or Richie incognito?

Right Guard: Gabe Jackson or Denzel Good?

Right Tackle: Sam young(Trent Brown didn't really play last year) or Alex Leatherwood?

Defensive Differences

Defensive end: Max Crosby or Yannick Ngakoue?

Third down pass rusher: Arden key or Max Crosby?

3 technique defensive tackles: Malik collins/Maurice hurst/David Irving(straight out of retirement) or Solomon Thomas/Darius Philon(hasn't played football in two years)/ Quinton Jefferson/ David Irving(with a full off-season to get in shape)?

Linebackers: Cory Littleton/ Nick Morrow/Nick Kwiatkoski(under DC Paul Guenther and LB coach David Lippicott) or Cory Littleton/ Nick Morrow/Nick Kwiatkoski(under DC Gus Bradley and LB coach Richard Smith)?

Cornerbacks: Trayvon Mullen/ Damon Arnette(With the defensive line we had last year) or Trayvon Mullen/Damon Arnette(With the defensive line we have this year)?

Jonathan Abrams: In an interchangeable safety role or in a strictly box safety role?

Free Safety: Jeff Heath/Erik Harris or Trayvon Moehrig?

I'm curious to know your guys thoughts.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Jeremy408

[Darbsk]

Do you mean we take into account the cap ramifications or is it purely on a player v player comparison? For example, would you rather have player A at X amount or Player B at Y amount? Or purely A Vs B?

[Jeremy408]

6 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Do you mean we take into account the cap ramifications or is it purely on a player v player comparison? For example, would you rather have player A at X amount or Player B at Y amount? Or purely A Vs B?

 I say player for player(but feel free to mention those factors in your choices if you want). Although I'm mostly concerned on will we be a better football team next year when you look at player for player comparisons(on the field)

[drfrey13]

Offensive Differences

#2 running back: Devonta Booker or Kenyan Drake?

Just a better back.  Tougher choice if I have to take into account money.

 

Veteran Wide Receiver: Nelson Aguilar or John Brown?

Would rather have the sure thing.  If we have to use this years salary I take the chance on Brown.

 

Center: Rodney Hudson or Andre James? 

I do not like his cap number but I still role with the Pro Bowler.  I can save money in other areas.

 

Left Guard: Denzel Good(Richie incognito didn't play last year) or Richie incognito?

Incognito is just a beast even at his age.  With the injury last year I am happy having both and for cheap.

 

Right Guard: Gabe Jackson or Denzel Good?

I do not see a huge drop off but the price difference is significant.  Makes it easier to hold onto Hudson.

 

Right Tackle: Sam young(Trent Brown didn't really play last year) or Alex Leatherwood?

Not a fan of the Leatherwood pick and think he will struggle early at least but Young could not finish a game and when he was in there he struggled also.  At least Leatherwood has upside.

 

Defensive Differences

Defensive end: Max Crosby or Yannick Ngakoue?

Crosby is just not there yet.  For this year I would take Crosby for the money but who knows what he is going to get if we extend him.

 

Third down pass rusher: Arden key or Max Crosby?

All day.  He could really excel in a pass rush specialist role.

 

3 technique defensive tackles: Malik collins/Maurice hurst/David Irving(straight out of retirement) or Solomon Thomas/Darius Philon(hasn't played football in two years)/ Quinton Jefferson/ David Irving(with a full off-season to get in shape)?

Collins contract and play make this one easy.  Not happy with what we have but it is better than last year.  Also a better chances of something sticking when you have more spaghetti to throw at the wall.

 

Linebackers: Cory Littleton/ Nick Morrow/Nick Kwiatkoski(under DC Paul Guenther and LB coach David Lippicott) or Cory Littleton/ Nick Morrow/Nick Kwiatkoski(under DC Gus Bradley and LB coach Richard Smith)?

Might as well just say Guenther vs Bradley.  I still see Guenther as the #1 issue on defense when he was here.  Might actually get guys to play up to their talent even if they do not have a lot.

 

Cornerbacks: Trayvon Mullen/ Damon Arnette(With the defensive line we had last year) or Trayvon Mullen/Damon Arnette(With the defensive line we have this year)?

I think we are improved but the biggest improvement will come from the coaches.

 

Jonathan Abrams: In an interchangeable safety role or in a strictly box safety role?

Ideally in the box but this will come down to the players around him.  Let him focus on what he knows best.

 

Free Safety: Jeff Heath/Erik Harris or Trayvon Moehrig?

Less money and most likely a better player.

[Jeremy408]

11 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Offensive Differences

#2 running back: Devonta Booker or Kenyan Drake?

Just a better back.  Tougher choice if I have to take into account money.

 

Veteran Wide Receiver: Nelson Aguilar or John Brown?

Would rather have the sure thing.  If we have to use this years salary I take the chance on Brown.

 

Center: Rodney Hudson or Andre James? 

I do not like his cap number but I still role with the Pro Bowler.  I can save money in other areas.

 

Left Guard: Denzel Good(Richie incognito didn't play last year) or Richie incognito?

Incognito is just a beast even at his age.  With the injury last year I am happy having both and for cheap.

 

Right Guard: Gabe Jackson or Denzel Good?

I do not see a huge drop off but the price difference is significant.  Makes it easier to hold onto Hudson.

 

Right Tackle: Sam young(Trent Brown didn't really play last year) or Alex Leatherwood?

Not a fan of the Leatherwood pick and think he will struggle early at least but Young could not finish a game and when he was in there he struggled also.  At least Leatherwood has upside.

 

Defensive Differences

Defensive end: Max Crosby or Yannick Ngakoue?

Crosby is just not there yet.  For this year I would take Crosby for the money but who knows what he is going to get if we extend him.

 

Third down pass rusher: Arden key or Max Crosby?

All day.  He could really excel in a pass rush specialist role.

 

3 technique defensive tackles: Malik collins/Maurice hurst/David Irving(straight out of retirement) or Solomon Thomas/Darius Philon(hasn't played football in two years)/ Quinton Jefferson/ David Irving(with a full off-season to get in shape)?

Collins contract and play make this one easy.  Not happy with what we have but it is better than last year.  Also a better chances of something sticking when you have more spaghetti to throw at the wall.

 

Linebackers: Cory Littleton/ Nick Morrow/Nick Kwiatkoski(under DC Paul Guenther and LB coach David Lippicott) or Cory Littleton/ Nick Morrow/Nick Kwiatkoski(under DC Gus Bradley and LB coach Richard Smith)?

Might as well just say Guenther vs Bradley.  I still see Guenther as the #1 issue on defense when he was here.  Might actually get guys to play up to their talent even if they do not have a lot.

 

Cornerbacks: Trayvon Mullen/ Damon Arnette(With the defensive line we had last year) or Trayvon Mullen/Damon Arnette(With the defensive line we have this year)?

I think we are improved but the biggest improvement will come from the coaches.

 

Jonathan Abrams: In an interchangeable safety role or in a strictly box safety role?

Ideally in the box but this will come down to the players around him.  Let him focus on what he knows best.

 

Free Safety: Jeff Heath/Erik Harris or Trayvon Moehrig?

Less money and most likely a better player.

At receiver John Brown is technically more proven that Nelson Agholor(having to 1000 yard seasons including one in 2019). Though he is older. 

Reason why I mention Richard Smith is because he was the linebackers coach in Denver when they drafted Danny Trevathan he was a defensive coordinator when they drafted Deion Jones/De'Vondre Campbell and was the linebackers coach for the chargers when they drafted Kyzir white. 

I agree with you with what you said about the corners. It also would help that they are going to play in the cover three press scheme(which both players thrived in in college). 

 

[drfrey13]

11 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

At receiver John Brown is technically more proven that Nelson Agholor(having to 1000 yard seasons including one in 2019). Though he is older. 

Reason why I mention Richard Smith is because he was the linebackers coach in Denver when they drafted Danny Trevathan he was a defensive coordinator when they drafted Deion Jones/De'Vondre Campbell and was the linebackers coach for the chargers when they drafted Kyzir white. 

I agree with you with what you said about the corners. It also would help that they are going to play in the cover three press scheme(which both players thrived in in college). 

 

I put more trust in what Agholor did with the team and what a 30 year old WR did last year.  Brown has had 3 bad years, 2 average years, and 2 good years.  If Agholor stayed with us next year you probably would have been able to argue that Agholor has produced more than Brown through their first hundred games and is 2 years younger.   I would want to upgrade from both but if the money is the same I go with Agholor.

[Darbsk]

Ok so position by position:

QB: Basically the same with same coaching - draw.

RB: Booker replaced by Drake, Riddick may replace Richard if we cut Richard for cost I think 2021 is improved

WR: Agholor over Brown slightly though with natural 2nd year progression of Ruggs, Edwards 2021 should be slightly improved.

TE: should be slightly better with Moreau getting Wittens snaps.

IOL: Good, Hudson, Jackson / Incognito or Simpson, James, Good 2020 by a decent margin and that's if Incognito is mainly fit. Huge question mark this year. If Richie goes down it could be a disaster.

OT: Miller, Young with a couple games of Brown / Miller, Leatherwood with maybe a couple games of Parker this is a tough one, I think 2021 could be slightly better if Leatherwood is even average. If Miller gets injured I don't even want to contemplate our OL.........

DE: Ferrell, Crosby, Key, Nassib / Ferrell, Ngakoue, Crosby, Coonz I'd say much better 2021 if Ferrell is fit and the addition of better coaching and Ngokoue. 

DT: Collins is addition by subtraction, I don't expect any of the new guys to really blow us away but they'll be better than Collins. Thomas I loved as a prospect but can he rise phoenix like from the ashes?

LB: Better by scheme and coaching in 2021 slight improvement.

S: Much prefer 2021 roster, we have hopefully a genuine FS plus I think Joseph is actually better than Abram. I also prefer a true FS/SS split and don't buy into the interchangeable safety thing........if you've got interchangeable safeties you've got no true ball player.

CB: Mullen I really like and Arnette and Johnson should improve at least a little. I like Lawson at slot but I also like some competition in there too. Lots of question marks but Amik, Arnette and Mullen should benefit from a less bad DL so a little improvement here 2021.  

This actually really surprised me breaking it down into constituent parts. Prior to breaking it down I would have said we've not really improved but when you look into it, most areas of D should improve, even an area like DT where there are huge question marks we were so poor last year with Collins we can't really not improve. Scheme and coaching will help Safety and LB a fair bit I would think. 

The one real area of concern as we know is OL which could scupper the whole offence. If that is even average then as a team we'll improve a decent amount I feel. If the OL goes down the plug hole the defensive improvements will be negated by an offence fail and we'll be screaming for Gruden's head on a pole. 

[Jeremy408]

1 minute ago, drfrey13 said:

I put more trust in what Agholor did with the team and what a 30 year old WR did last year.  Brown has had 3 bad years, 2 average years, and 2 good years.  If Agholor stayed with us next year you probably would have been able to argue that Agholor has produced more than Brown through their first hundred games and is 2 years younger.   I would want to upgrade from both but if the money is the same I go with Agholor.

 well there a reasons why Brown had three bad years he also had sickle cell issues with his health which made it to where he literally couldn't play sometimes. When you look at the average years I know one of those years was when they switched with from Joe Flacco to Lamar Jackson which affected his ability to get the ball(before the quarterback change he was top-five in receiving yards that year)

He with nelson Agholor nobody expected anything from him until last year when he played with us. 

He said about the age thing though is 100% valid. 

[drfrey13]

5 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

 well there a reasons why Brown had three bad years he also had sickle cell issues with his health which made it to where he literally couldn't play sometimes. When you look at the average years I know one of those years was when they switched with from Joe Flacco to Lamar Jackson which affected his ability to get the ball(before the quarterback change he was top-five in receiving yards that year)

He with nelson Agholor nobody expected anything from him until last year when he played with us. 

He said about the age thing though is 100% valid. 

I guess you are taking a chance with sickle cell any year that he plays also.  What I know for sure is that Agholor and Carr had a connection and we are hoping Brown can duplicate that.

[Jeremy408]

17 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I guess you are taking a chance with sickle cell any year that he plays also.  What I know for sure is that Agholor and Carr had a connection and we are hoping Brown can duplicate that.

 Well actually I heard once he got to the ravens they figured out how to keep it under control.  I don't disagree at all about the Carr and Nelson Agholor connection no one can deny that. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Jeremy408

[Turnobili]

interesting thread concept.

Offense:

we're better at backup RB, but its not like Booker was even bad last year, so i'm not sure how much impact this has.

WR group is basically the same. really comes down to whether Brown can replicate Agholor's season, and whether Ruggs/Edwards can improve.

TE group should be better with less Witten snaps

Interior OL i think is going to be noticeably worse. Incognito is back, but Jackson is gone, and thats kind of a wash, and thats assuming Richie is still playing well at his age coming off injury. but the dropoff at C is massive

Exterior OL should be better. while i dont like the leatherwood pick, i think any OT we took in the first 3 rounds would have been an improvement to Young/Parker at RT

so offense feels like a wash to me, but the 2nd year receivers could change that

 

Defense:

Edge is objectively better by bringing in Yannick and dumping Key.

DT is questionable. Collins sucked, but I think we missed opportunities by not playing Hurst enough. Hurst has been a better 3tec than Solomon Thomas in the NFL. so on the field we might be better than last year, but only because we gave Collins way too many snaps. Still think we had better potential with Hurst.

Linebackers are the same... but hard to imagine Littleton is as bad as last year. We also might see some talent infusion with Muse or Deablo. But this is more of a coaching change than player change. We all want to hope it will be better under Bradley, but we were all optimistic when PG was initially hired, too

Corners are basically the same. Just banking on internal development. I really hope we bring in Sherman or Hayward to change that

Safety play should be better. Moehrig is easily better than Harris. Abram having less responsibility is a good thing.

defense should be better at the edges and FS, but otherwise, who knows

[CaliforniaKid7]

3 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

I think the best way to find out whether or not the Raiders improved as a roster is to look at each addition/ differences on the roster and compare it to what we had before. 

Here is the one rule: You have to pick one or the other you can't say something like "We don't know that yet" or "I can't choose"

So I'm going to ask the question who would you rather have from top to bottom:

Offensive Differences

#2 running back: Devonta Booker or Kenyan Drake?

-Very very excited to see what Drake brings to this offense and I hope to see him and JJ out there together on the field at the same time. There should be very little times we don't have a #1 RB on the field. Having the legit threat of run/pass from the RB spot at any giving time is underrated imo. 

Veteran Wide Receiver: Nelson Agholor or John Brown?

-I'm a big Nelly fan and I just don't think JB can reproduce what he did but I'm not sure with the (hopeful) improvements from Ruggs/Edwards and the addition of a more prominent RB2 in Drake that we need as much from JB as we got from NA. 

Center: Rodney Hudson or Andre James? 

-No explanation needed here

Left Guard: Denzel Good(Richie incognito didn't play last year) or Richie incognito?

-I think Richie at his best is better than Good at his best but I trust Good to be more consistent and injury free until Richie proves otherwise. But if injuries are set aside I'd rank Richie ahead of DG. 

Right Guard: Gabe Jackson or Denzel Good?

-This one was tough but I feel like Gabes play the last year or so was sub-par and definitely not worth his contract at the end. Good is always a present surprise and while that's partially do to just lower overall expectations I expect Good to step up. 

Right Tackle: Sam young(Trent Brown didn't really play last year) or Alex Leatherwood?

-Young was an absolute turnstile last year, expecting some growing pains w/ AL initially but I also think his good will be miles ahead of whatever Sam Young was able to do. 

Defensive Differences

Defensive end: Max Crosby or Yannick Ngakoue?

-easy

Third down pass rusher: Arden key or Max Crosby?

-Crosby all day

3 technique defensive tackles: Malik collins/Maurice hurst/David Irving(straight out of retirement) or Solomon Thomas/Darius Philon(hasn't played football in two years)/ Quinton Jefferson/ David Irving(with a full off-season to get in shape)?

-Between my hope that Irving with a full off-season comes back much improved and my love for Solomon Thomas I gotta give the edge to the newcomers here. I was excited for Collins last year as I loved him pre-draft but holy smokes he was bad and I'm glad we attempted to improve this group even if it should probably be a toss up at best I'm just glad we didn't sit on our hands and then wonder why our 3T production was bad again after not doing a single thing to improve it. If anything there will be much more competition this year which is never a bad thing. 

Linebackers: Cory Littleton/ Nick Morrow/Nick Kwiatkoski(under DC Paul Guenther and LB coach David Lippicott) or Cory Littleton/ Nick Morrow/Nick Kwiatkoski(under DC Gus Bradley and LB coach Richard Smith)?

-Another easy selection here. Very excited to see what another year together (the 3 LB's) and a first year under Bradley will do for these guys. Not expecting pro-bowl production but a solid group none the less...I'm also stoked for this group to add Divine Deablo to mix which gives us another tool we didn't have last year at LB. 

Cornerbacks: Trayvon Mullen/ Damon Arnette(With the defensive line we had last year) or Trayvon Mullen/Damon Arnette(With the defensive line we have this year)?

-Still really want to add a veteran to this group but TM/DA with another year of experience and Bradley as their DC is definitely better than a rookie/injured DA and Guenther

Jonathan Abrams: In an interchangeable safety role or in a strictly box safety role?

-okay nevermind this was the easiest one...still not sold on JA being a long term piece of this defense but I will gladly be proven wrong here and hope I am. 

Free Safety: Jeff Heath/Erik Harris or Trevon Moehrig?

-man these just keep getting easier.

Overall that's....

-2020: 3 (all offensive)

-2021: 9 (all defensive + 2 offensive)

 

So based off what I filled out the only spots we failed to "upgrade" were all offensive and at Center, iOL, and the 2nd/Veteran WR spot. I'm not worried about our WR group with the edition of Brown and Stills plus what I think are going to major improvements for Edwards + Ruggs. Plus you throw in the threat of Drake out the backfield and I don't see our pass catching options as worst than last year as a whole. But it just goes back to the offensive line and the interior OL specifically. If we can at least be average there then our offense is going to hum. Defensively it could be terrible again as there still isn't legit talent at every level but we are faster, deeper, and hopefully better coached than last year which I think is all we'll need to be a top 14-20 defense. 

[Jeremy408]

3 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Ok so position by position:

QB: Basically the same with same coaching - draw.

RB: Booker replaced by Drake, Riddick may replace Richard if we cut Richard for cost I think 2021 is improved

WR: Agholor over Brown slightly though with natural 2nd year progression of Ruggs, Edwards 2021 should be slightly improved.

TE: should be slightly better with Moreau getting Wittens snaps.

IOL: Good, Hudson, Jackson / Incognito or Simpson, James, Good 2020 by a decent margin and that's if Incognito is mainly fit. Huge question mark this year. If Richie goes down it could be a disaster.

OT: Miller, Young with a couple games of Brown / Miller, Leatherwood with maybe a couple games of Parker this is a tough one, I think 2021 could be slightly better if Leatherwood is even average. If Miller gets injured I don't even want to contemplate our OL.........

DE: Ferrell, Crosby, Key, Nassib / Ferrell, Ngakoue, Crosby, Coonz I'd say much better 2021 if Ferrell is fit and the addition of better coaching and Ngokoue. 

DT: Collins is addition by subtraction, I don't expect any of the new guys to really blow us away but they'll be better than Collins. Thomas I loved as a prospect but can he rise phoenix like from the ashes?

LB: Better by scheme and coaching in 2021 slight improvement.

S: Much prefer 2021 roster, we have hopefully a genuine FS plus I think Joseph is actually better than Abram. I also prefer a true FS/SS split and don't buy into the interchangeable safety thing........if you've got interchangeable safeties you've got no true ball player.

CB: Mullen I really like and Arnette and Johnson should improve at least a little. I like Lawson at slot but I also like some competition in there too. Lots of question marks but Amik, Arnette and Mullen should benefit from a less bad DL so a little improvement here 2021.  

This actually really surprised me breaking it down into constituent parts. Prior to breaking it down I would have said we've not really improved but when you look into it, most areas of D should improve, even an area like DT where there are huge question marks we were so poor last year with Collins we can't really not improve. Scheme and coaching will help Safety and LB a fair bit I would think. 

The one real area of concern as we know is OL which could scupper the whole offence. If that is even average then as a team we'll improve a decent amount I feel. If the OL goes down the plug hole the defensive improvements will be negated by an offence fail and we'll be screaming for Gruden's head on a pole. 

It’s interesting when you look at it from A position by position comparison

[Darbsk]

10 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

It’s interesting when you look at it from A position by position comparison

Yeh, without thinking too deeply my initial thought would gave been that we kind of stayed the same but when you break it down, and assuming the 2nd year and 3 year players can improve even a little we might have made some pretty decent improvements. 

On an individual player basis I would say:

Drake over Booker

Agholor over Brown (but not at this season's cost)

Hudson over James

Incognito (if fit) over Good

Good over Jackson (at Jackson's cost last year)

Leatherwood over Young

Ngakoue over Crosby

Crosby over Key

This year's 3Ts over last year's

This year's LBs and coaches overs last year's 

This year's CBs over last year's

Abram at box safety over interchangeable (actually prefer Joseph here also)

Moehrig over Harris

Overall, it's got me more optimistic for this coming season........at least until reality hits 😁

[MrOaktown_56]

4 hours ago, Turnobili said:

interesting thread concept.

Offense:

we're better at backup RB, but its not like Booker was even bad last year, so i'm not sure how much impact this has.

WR group is basically the same. really comes down to whether Brown can replicate Agholor's season, and whether Ruggs/Edwards can improve.

TE group should be better with less Witten snaps

Interior OL i think is going to be noticeably worse. Incognito is back, but Jackson is gone, and thats kind of a wash, and thats assuming Richie is still playing well at his age coming off injury. but the dropoff at C is massive

Exterior OL should be better. while i dont like the leatherwood pick, i think any OT we took in the first 3 rounds would have been an improvement to Young/Parker at RT

so offense feels like a wash to me, but the 2nd year receivers could change that

 

Defense:

Edge is objectively better by bringing in Yannick and dumping Key.

DT is questionable. Collins sucked, but I think we missed opportunities by not playing Hurst enough. Hurst has been a better 3tec than Solomon Thomas in the NFL. so on the field we might be better than last year, but only because we gave Collins way too many snaps. Still think we had better potential with Hurst.

Linebackers are the same... but hard to imagine Littleton is as bad as last year. We also might see some talent infusion with Muse or Deablo. But this is more of a coaching change than player change. We all want to hope it will be better under Bradley, but we were all optimistic when PG was initially hired, too

Corners are basically the same. Just banking on internal development. I really hope we bring in Sherman or Hayward to change that

Safety play should be better. Moehrig is easily better than Harris. Abram having less responsibility is a good thing.

defense should be better at the edges and FS, but otherwise, who knows

I think quinton jefferson, maybe aside from hurst is the best interior rusher on this team in years. Which says more about how bad our interior rush has been. Plus irving being in football shape could help. And philon was pretty good for the chargers pre-suspension. So I have some optimism there. LB really comes down to if littleton can be better in Bradley's scheme than Guenthers.