Neglected Losing Roster Realities: 13 of 22 Starters Are 1st/2nd Yr Players

[Mind Character]

1 hour ago, OttoGrahamsGhost said:

That’s not all I got out of it. I also heard him referring to the rebuilding but this is sashi’s rebuild. Then they fired him. If there is much success next year it is thanks to him. Not to Dorsey (unless they pick up some impactful free agents). If you trust in the rebuild you don’t get rid of the architect half way through. 

Hue was a small portion. I was just bringing up an obvious inconsistency I heard in his little presser. 

I would put money down we lose 2-3 impact players in the offseason. The new GM is going to want to put a stamp on this team and his rebuild. 

Fair point about success being based on Sashi's efforts.

Agree to disagree on the "you don't fire the architect half way through"

To me, the architect was good at a certain job of acquiring all the materials, making deals to extra materials for a successful build, and cutting cost to increase available money for the build.

That was Sashi's job and he was really good at leading that goal.

I  just think we require a different "architect" for this next phase of building: one with expertise on when and where to lay the bricks and materials.

When it's all said and done, if the building is a success, then both should get credit.

Sashi will get his due and did his job well.

The job of secure capital (cap space and draft picks) to start to go all in on a build was not compatible with a a win-now goal.

In the end, I think we needed a disciplined leader like Sashi, but we desperately need a knowledgeable builder like Dorsey now instead of one w/ Sashi's skill set.

I hope Dorsey doesn't go egotistical like...he has to know he doesn't have many GM opps left...

Time will tell...

[Mind Character]

The only difference between the 2016 team and the 2017 team literally was Rookies at key positions, Subtracting Terrelle Pryor, Adding Kenny Britt, Jason Mccourty, Kevin Zeitler, and JC Tretter ...that's it

We can't get to winning with this foolishness anymore.

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

12 hours ago, Mind Character said:

The only difference between the 2016 team and the 2017 team literally was Rookies at key positions, Subtracting Terrelle Pryor, Adding Kenny Britt, Jason Mccourty, Kevin Zeitler, and JC Tretter ...that's it

We can't get to winning with this foolishness anymore.

 

Getting to winning wasn’t goal number 1 for the 2017 season, getting in position to draft our qbotf was imo.

[Kathouse Sticks]

17 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Getting to winning wasn’t goal number 1 for the 2017 season, getting in position to draft our qbotf was imo.

I think there would be some disagreement with this sentiment...I don't think I heard him say, "You play to position yourself to draft a quarterback."

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Coaches and players don’t tank, I agree, but GM’s do.

If you think Sashi was fielding his best possible team with a goal of winning with a league leading amount of cap space and the youngest roster in the league, you’re extra special.

[buno67]

36 minutes ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

I think there would be some disagreement with this sentiment...I don't think I heard him say, "You play to position yourself to draft a quarterback."

 

The browns mindset was to never be a playoff team. If they were they would of never released joe Haden. That was the telling sign. 

[dawgdish]

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Getting to winning wasn’t goal number 1 for the 2017 season, getting in position to draft our qbotf was imo.

We could have had him with Wentz 2 years ago, or Watson last year. I don't think Sashi's long term master plan was to sew up the #1 pick in the 2018 draft, it was always just to play numbers and create as many draft picks and cap space as possible. He did that side of it well. If his player evaluation and football team building expertise were as good as his #'s side expertise, we'd be in much better shape now, though, because we'd already have a franchise QB with experience under their belt, and that's way more priceless than a handful of the Ricardo Louises and Carl Nassibs of the world.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

6 minutes ago, dawgdish said:

We could have had him with Wentz 2 years ago, or Watson last year. I don't think Sashi's long term master plan was to sew up the #1 pick in the 2018 draft, it was always just to play numbers and create as many draft picks and cap space as possible. He did that side of it well. If his player evaluation and football team building expertise were as good as his #'s side expertise, we'd be in much better shape now, though, because we'd already have a franchise QB with experience under their belt, and that's way more priceless than a handful of the Ricardo Louises and Carl Nassibs of the world.

The HC, our QB whisperer, didn’t want either of those qb’s, why would we take them?

Hue was the guy brought in here tasked to find a qb, Sashi gave him chance after chance and he failed.

[CBrownsman]

18 minutes ago, dawgdish said:

We could have had him with Wentz 2 years ago, or Watson last year. I don't think Sashi's long term master plan was to sew up the #1 pick in the 2018 draft, it was always just to play numbers and create as many draft picks and cap space as possible. He did that side of it well. If his player evaluation and football team building expertise were as good as his #'s side expertise, we'd be in much better shape now, though, because we'd already have a franchise QB with experience under their belt, and that's way more priceless than a handful of the Ricardo Louises and Carl Nassibs of the world.

Yeah if the right situation presented itself I think Sashi would have absolutely taken a QB.

Much like last year we drafted the best player available with the first overall pick to aquire talent and we traded down from 12 to aquire more picks and more players.

Before last year we tried a few QB's who we thought could have been something, and we relied on Hue to "be worth his salt as a coach" which he clearly isn't to make a late round productive like other teams have before.

This year we probably would have Drafted Rosen or Darnold #1 and then traded down from #4 to acquire future draft assets.

considering most teams only get 1 draft pick every year, I like that we have the ability to draft the best player available and get a possible first round pick next year with our second 1st but I don't see us doing that anymore...

That being said I would be VERY happy with Darnold and Barkley if available.

[CBrownsman]

So interesting question.

Everyone complains about trading down because we don't have the QB or the top talent...

That being said what would you guys have rather had?

Myles Garrett & Malik Hooker

or Myles Garrett, Jabril Peppers & Saquan Barkley

[Mind Character]

26 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

The HC, our QB whisperer, didn’t want either of those qb’s, why would we take them?

Hue was the guy brought in here tasked to find a qb, Sashi gave him chance after chance and he failed.

 There are tons of just criticisms of Hue (playcalling, too much on the plate of a rookie QB, situational football, etc), the truth is we really don't know that he didn't want those QBs, and more importantly the facts don't necessarily prove that to be thhe case.

What's known is that Hue loved Jared Goff and forcibly made the case for Goff as opposed to relenting to DePo & Sashi's plan that they wouldn't to implement instead of a pick anyway (Goff or Wentz included). The plan was always to trade down in that first draft to begin the draft capital accumulation process and the rebuild.

Hue also liked Wentz but not enough so much so that he wouldn't relent to the rebuild plan.

Deshaun Watson seems to think Hue wanted him, and I for one don't think Deshaun is so naive and dumb as to misinterpret the sentiment or misremember a text from days leading up to draft day and the day itself.

When asked if Hue was shocked at Deshaun recent success, Hue retorted " I knew this level of play was in him and he'd be doing what he's doing now."

It makes sense to logically to conclude that Hue probably wanted Deshaun but didn't likely stand on the table for him and relented to the plan a la Wentz.after seeing his top 2 QBs go (Mahomes and Trubisky).

The Cody  Kessler thing always makes me laugh as when the whole draft community, the NFL network crew, and immediate reaction/questioning from our media was bashing Cody as an undraftable player and bust out the gate. To have a coach get behind that player and try to defuse the criticism by saying "trust me" isn't that odd.

The RG3 thing was a way to get a young QB with promise but with a veteran presence. It was a risky gamble to try to get to winning that didn't pay off.

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

From all accounts Hue wanted Hooker at 12, not Watson.

He also wanted RGIII and Kessler and said he’d get something out of Kizer.

I wanted Goff too, but I can understand a front office not wanting to trade UP for a qb reducing their assets to build a team around said qb when that team was barren of talent.

Hue, the QB guru, didn’t identify Wentz, plain and simple.

[Mind Character]

3 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Getting to winning wasn’t goal number 1 for the 2017 season, getting in position to draft our qbotf was imo.

 

3 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Coaches and players don’t tank, I agree, but GM’s do.

If you think Sashi was fielding his best possible team with a goal of winning with a league leading amount of cap space and the youngest roster in the league, you’re extra special.

And this is the interesting thing about football because Coaches are evaluated on the here and now while GMs are evaluated on a much longer time scale especially if assets to be capitalized upon extend in the future.

That's why it always made sense to me to keep Sashi and Hue but maybe bring on another more building a team experienced personnel person as GM and force Hue to make some staff changes

Sashi would have made a great Team President, but a guy like John Dorsey who has ran the show in the past probably wanted to be the CEO front man as well. I can't fault him for that, but it wouldve been nice to keep a disciplined intellectual thinker like Sashi on the team in some capacity. and leave the team building up to a Dorsey type.

Jimmy likely believes that what he could get out  of Sashi he can get out of DePo in terms of a disciplined quality thinker.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

10 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

 

And this is the interesting thing about football because Coaches are evaluated on the here and now while GMs are evaluated on a much longer time scale especially if assets to be capitalized upon extend in the future.

That's why it always made sense to me to keep Sashi and Hue but maybe bring on another more building a team experienced personnel person as GM and force Hue to make some staff changes

Sashi would have made a great Team President, but a guy like John Dorsey who has ran the show in the past probably wanted to be the CEO front man as well. I can't fault him for that, but it wouldve been nice to keep a disciplined intellectual thinker like Sashi on the team in some capacity. and leave the team building up to a Dorsey type.

Jimmy likely believes that what he could get out  of Sashi he can get out of DePo in terms of a disciplined quality thinker.

Maybe, but Haslam doesn’t seem to favor disciplined, quality thinking, either personally or in his staff.

This is the moron who came in ranting and raving at Sashi and Co for not sending a bunch of assets to a division opponent for a mediocre QB midseason who would have done nothing more than potentially win a couple meaningless games and ruin our shot at a guy like Darnold or Rosen.

Halsam is a moron and doesn’t seem to like people who make him feel like the window licker he is.  Case in point, he and Hue seem to get along splendidly.

[Mind Character]

49 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

From all accounts Hue wanted Hooker at 12, not Watson.

He also wanted RGIII and Kessler and said he’d get something out of Kizer.

I wanted Goff too, but I can understand a front office not wanting to trade UP for a qb reducing their assets to build a team around said qb when that team was barren of talent.

Hue, the QB guru, didn’t identify Wentz, plain and simple.

it's certainly true Hue didn't want Wentz as much as Goff.

It's also certainly true that the FO always preferred the trade down analytical draft capital accumulation plan

It's certainly true the FO would've foregone that plan just like they were for Goff if Hue had as strong of a conviction to go with Wentz just like he had with Goff.

But I don't think it's correct to suggest Hueball/Huebris thought Wentz was garbage, wouldn't be good thereby proving his inability to evaluate young QBs.

It's likely the FO and Hue comprised w/ both parties not as enthralled by Wentz...after he/they felt gut punched by the Rams trading ahead of us.

The Kizer thing is interesting. Taking Kizer in and out of the lineup and treating him like any other person on the 53 man roster that under performs was the act of desparation of a coach that was tired of losing and had just gone 1-15. You don't do that if the goal is solely future oriented...you do that if you want to win now and have a win now goal.

Kizer had fully collapsed with INT after INT at that point in back to back to back games.

Putting the whole offense on his plate in the beginning of the season was the most curious and poor judgment and fair criticism when it comes to Hue with the caveat being that to test a QBs limits it's important to see if they can handle that, but it's a smarter choice to give them training wheels and slow play it a la the Bears and Trubisky.

The advantage being kizer got more reps at real football and was held to a crazy high standard while Trubisky didn't see as much.

Interesting that despite all the struggles and historic turnovers Deshone Kizer's QBR was higher than Trubisky's for the season.