Neglected Losing Roster Realities: 13 of 22 Starters Are 1st/2nd Yr Players

[Mind Character]

5 hours ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

This thread almost sounds like a "Keep Hue Jackson in 2018" campaign!  You all are making some impressive arguments for it.  I wonder if Dorsey has started reading all these posts?

When I first made this thread it wasn't a "Keep Hue" thread necessarily but I really felt like as a fan base whether that be barbershop, cooler talk or cleveland sports radio or our sports media writers NO ONE and I mean NO ONE was talking beyond the hanging fruit of "Fire Hue" or "Fire Jimmy" when analyzing how we got to this point. While those later points have their own validity on their own merits, there were some things that were as I thought going "Neglected." And there's interesting conversations to have around such things, but all talk of browns is exclusively on the hanging fruit issues.

Specifically, that at team where 13 of 22 of the starters are first/second year players and more importantly the only changes to the starters made from a 1-15 team was Jason Mccourty, Rookie Jabrill Peppers, rookie Trevon Coley/Larry Ogunjobi,  and rookie Myles Garrett on Defense while subtracting Terrelle Pryor, adding Kenny Britt, rookie David Njoku, rookie youngest QB in the league Deshone Kizer on OFFENSE...I exclude the OLine b/c we know a good Oline doesn't lead to wins in this town and the new regime started off with a top OLine so merely replacing them is not a big deal imo.

Point being...this team was always going to possibly be historically bad with or without bad coaching decisions.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

5 minutes ago, Kiwibrown said:

I hope dumb head Dorsey doesn't make moves to prove he is the man. 

Like cutting players like Collins, or nassib, or anyone like that. 

I have a feeling he might do something to prove how big his balls are

Yeah, I'm concerned he's going to worry too much about putting "his fingerprint" on the team and we'll end up with a ton of turnover, yet again, due to a lack of continuity.

[Mind Character]

6 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Agreed.

The roster isn't terrible though. 

Id like to see a vet qb and 2 QUALITY starters as well as locking Shelton up.  That's it. We don't need to burn through the cap space on a bunch of old or mediocre/overpaid vets.

Add those players to the 6 top 65 picks we have and we'll have a much improved team next season.

It's not that the roster is necessarily terrible; it's just that the roster is inexperienced and really historically inexperienced in that excluding the expansion teams there has not been a team with this many  1st and 2nd year players not only as starters but in the 2-deep as well.

The backups and the backups to the backups are new professional football players.

Those are the players that need to see immediate gratification of winning to maintain belief, professionalism, working habits....losing takes a toll on those guys the most when they are trying to establish their identity in the league along with get through all the stuff spiraling through their head via the demands of pro football.

I think the point your making about the roster not being terrible also really speaks to that our weakness of full roster experience is a future strength (hopefully), and from a longterm sustainable building of a winning roster plan Sashi and co. made smart decisions; however, it was a mistake by Us fans in thinking that what we were going to see was going to be any thing but historic trash.

The whole optimism was an illusion based solely on the signing of Zeitler, Tretter, resigning Bitonio....I remember Jim Donavan even (who I love) talking about how "now, we have a chance," but those signings weren't what we should've been paying attention to.

There is much talent to developed on this roster and ultimately the decisions that led us to historic losing now will likely be the seeds the help us grow to sustainable winning in the near future.

This is the most critical offseason and we have to capitalize.

[Kiwibrown]

I think our biggest problem for the season gone by, is obviously Kizer. He needs a mental make over.

If we started, RG3 Josh McCown, Kessler, we would of won some games. 

He was pitted with two starting receivers that couldn't catch with Britt and Louis. 

Crowell was also playing terribly. 
 

[Mind Character]

Joe Thomas with some gems regarding the neglected realities of the plan, how it equates to historic losing, what it feels like being on the inside of an organization with that plan, praise for the plan as a longterm strategy, disdain for the plan as a miserable losing strategy in the short term, discussion on how said plan kills coaches (good and bad), and roster building insights etc..

Joe's going to be a great FO guy if he should so chose.

Also, he discussed the youth of this team and how it was easy to predict that losing was in our path & how our plan was not actually to win games, but to get the highest draft picks possible and most cap money possible to one day hopefully cash it in to create sustainable winning.

Ignore the pro-Hue stuff and just listen to his takes about what it's been like as a veteran player on an inexperienced team when you can clearly see that the plan is not to win now despite what is being portrayed in the media.

A truly tortured HOF-legend. Hope he comes back next year assuming we spend big and draft wise to get to winning, or let him go to another team.

 

[FGK]

1 hour ago, Mind Character said:

Joe's going to be a great FO guy if he should so chose.

As of today, I would hire Joe Thomas for a FO role before I'd hire Peyton Manning.

Joe has a litany of quotes that show that he understands the game from a coaching/FO perspective that I haven't seen from Peyton, doesn't mean they don't exist, but I haven't seen them. Joe has a history of being one of the most popular and beloved guys in an organization, Peyton pissed eeeeeverybody off even as he was winning them championships. Joe has impecable character in an age where that really matters, Peyton still has some shady stuff hanging over him from college.

I think if Joe wants to, he'll be a GM 10-15 years from now. And his team will immediately become my #2 rooting interest behind the Browns. Maybe #3 behind whoever Handsome Jimmy G is playing for at that point.

[OttoGrahamsGhost]

Joe sounds like a good company man who the team paid an extra $1.5M (thanks sashi) to keep him happy after his injury. 

Love Joe, but the you don’t bite the hand that feeds you idiom might be something that forces his words here. 

 

[Reginaldm9]

Thomas will be a media guy before he's in the FO. He's far too entertaining to sit behind an organization. 

[Kathouse Sticks]

5 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Yeah, I'm concerned he's going to worry too much about putting "his fingerprint" on the team and we'll end up with a ton of turnover, yet again, due to a lack of continuity.

I think the thing that bothers me is when someone gets cut because “they’re not one of the coach/GMs guys.”  That is just ignorant to me. If a guy can play, he can play. I don’t care if he was Chud’s guy, Banner’s guy, or Hue’s guy. I’ll give you an example of what I’m talking about: Dion Lewis. We had this guy, but because he wasn’t “someone’s guy”, we got rid of him. Ignorant. You don’t think he could have helped us?

Anyway, I hope that Dorsey (and Hue-or new coach) will sit down and evaluate the talent and needs of this team and forget about who’s guys they are, and just get the pieces in here that will help us get on the winning track. 

[Mind Character]

40 minutes ago, OttoGrahamsGhost said:

Joe sounds like a good company man who the team paid an extra $1.5M (thanks sashi) to keep him happy after his injury. 

Love Joe, but the you don’t bite the hand that feeds you idiom might be something that forces his words here. 

 

Come on...you have to have ears to listen.

His insights are thoughtful but to hear them you have to go beyond the pro-Hue words and not tune out thinking everything else is just company speak.

He spoke with nuance and complexity about all things related to the plan (good and bad).

Does a disservice to Joe and his candor to simply say he's a company man. He elaborated on a lot of points that execs and his owner don't get.

[bruceb]

1 hour ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

Anyway, I hope that Dorsey (and Hue-or new coach) will sit down and evaluate the talent and needs of this team and forget about who’s guys they are, and just get the pieces in here that will help us get on the winning track. 

Too much ego and need to prove themselves for that to happen, imho.

[OttoGrahamsGhost]

47 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

Come on...you have to have ears to listen.

His insights are thoughtful but to hear them you have to go beyond the pro-Hue words and not tune out thinking everything else is just company speak.

He spoke with nuance and complexity about all things related to the plan (good and bad).

Does a disservice to Joe and his candor to simply say he's a company man. He elaborated on a lot of points that execs and his owner don't get.

I listened to him and I have listened to the other guys too. He is the only one upbeat about any of this. I love Joe, I understand his candor and think he is being honest on most levels. But there is definitely a positive spin put on almost everything said. If you listen to Duke and some of the other players they are down on Hue. I’m not going to buy in to it.

[Mind Character]

43 minutes ago, OttoGrahamsGhost said:

I listened to him and I have listened to the other guys too. He is the only one upbeat about any of this. I love Joe, I understand his candor and think he is being honest on most levels. But there is definitely a positive spin put on almost everything said. If you listen to Duke and some of the other players they are down on Hue. I’m not going to buy in to it.

Again...that last part of your comment about Duke & Hue clearly demonstrates you're centering your reaction all around the words about Hue or how what Joe is saying has implications for Hue.

My point was that Joe had insights on things not necessarily related to the head coach that's why I said "ignore his takes on Hue to find the gems."

You don't have to buy anything. The majority of the over 17 minute interview is spent on talking about building a roster, analysis of what the plan has felt like and done to players past and present, where the mistakes and issues have been.

If all you hear in Joe's presser is "Hue this..." or "Hue that.." you weren't really listening and missed out on wisdom and insight about the building of a winning football organization along w/ insights on the painful mistake filled journey from one of the greatest football players of all time.

[OttoGrahamsGhost]

2 hours ago, Mind Character said:

Again...that last part of your comment about Duke & Hue clearly demonstrates you're centering your reaction all around the words about Hue or how what Joe is saying has implications for Hue.

My point was that Joe had insights on things not necessarily related to the head coach that's why I said "ignore his takes on Hue to find the gems."

You don't have to buy anything. The majority of the over 17 minute interview is spent on talking about building a roster, analysis of what the plan has felt like and done to players past and present, where the mistakes and issues have been.

If all you hear in Joe's presser is "Hue this..." or "Hue that.." you weren't really listening and missed out on wisdom and insight about the building of a winning football organization along w/ insights on the painful mistake filled journey from one of the greatest football players of all time.

That’s not all I got out of it. I also heard him referring to the rebuilding but this is sashi’s rebuild. Then they fired him. If there is much success next year it is thanks to him. Not to Dorsey (unless they pick up some impactful free agents). If you trust in the rebuild you don’t get rid of the architect half way through. 

Hue was a small portion. I was just bringing up an obvious inconsistency I heard in his little presser. 

I would put money down we lose 2-3 impact players in the offseason. The new GM is going to want to put a stamp on this team and his rebuild. 

[Bonanza23]

Honestly Joe Thomas best bet after football is to retire and go fishing. His evaluation of football players through the years is spotty at best. Especially his qb evaluation. He is obviously leaning towards a career in the media post Browns. But listen to his weather forecast for Browns games. Not too good. Sorry joe I love you forever as an elite left tackle. I will forever love you for what you did for crackburn. But please give me 2 more years at LT so we can find your replacement and then retire catching them bass sturgeons pike steelhead et all.