Roster Cuts: The Road to 53

[.Buzz]

Yeah, I wouldn’t say Austin’s role (if he does takeover what they had in Etienne as far as doing a bit of everything) would be a large one. Just gives you someone with good speed that can come out of the backfield/be lined up all over. Not like he’ll be force fed.

Id iimagine Urban knows there’s a reason why he was able to be signed in August.

[pwny]

Agreeing on all of this. My assumption is what @JaguarCrazy2832mentioned in the thread about his signing; that this was a contingency plan for a situation like this.

You gotta think that the section of plays that had been designed to use ETN’s skill have been shrunk a bunch (and maybe that’s also part of what happened in that coach meeting) and will be divided up between Viska and Austin. it’s not ideal, because I’m honestly not sure either of them can provide any real *game breaking* ability in that role at this stage in either of their careers. But when you’re in year one of instituting that role, the majority of what you’re planning for that role can only be done by the first guy you bring in for it.

I’d also guess that Austin’s role is going to be larger than any of us want it to be. Even at this stage of his career, he still has speed and explosiveness that almost nobody else on the team has, and we’re desperate for that type of speed to the point that they might give him a larger role than he deserves solely in hopes that one of the touches could provide a spark.

 

Also a dark horse candidate for taking up some of the role is Jamal Agnew, imo. 

[.Buzz]

Core ST guy, so I kind of had him locked in already. Meeting with reporters this late into the preseason just reinforces that.

[Tugboat]

On 8/26/2021 at 6:10 AM, .Buzz said:

Yeah, I wouldn’t say Austin’s role (if he does takeover what they had in Etienne as far as doing a bit of everything) would be a large one. Just gives you someone with good speed that can come out of the backfield/be lined up all over. Not like he’ll be force fed.

Id iimagine Urban knows there’s a reason why he was able to be signed in August.

Just really have to hope that's the case, and he's not "force fed" touches by virtue of being the only viable option for some of those things.

Reason would suggest that shouldn't be hard to figure out, understanding why Tavon was available off the street in the middle of August.  But the worry is, like @pwny mentioned...this team is looking quite lacking in real "gamebreakers", especially when it comes to big speed for those "explosive play" threats.  Just a nagging concern that Etienne's role was intended to be such a significant contribution to the offensive design, that they will just force the only available option in there.  When the alternative is probably more of that painfully predictable, pedestrian offensive design we saw in the preseason, that nobody really seemed happy with.

 

We'll see.  It's hard to envision a player of Tavon's ilk getting force-fed touches in the NFL, today.  But it's also easy to see the corner they've potentially been backed into.  And stupid things happen when backed into a corner.

[.Buzz]

11 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

Just really have to hope that's the case, and he's not "force fed" touches by virtue of being the only viable option for some of those things.

Reason would suggest that shouldn't be hard to figure out, understanding why Tavon was available off the street in the middle of August.  But the worry is, like @pwny mentioned...this team is looking quite lacking in real "gamebreakers", especially when it comes to big speed for those "explosive play" threats.  Just a nagging concern that Etienne's role was intended to be such a significant contribution to the offensive design, that they will just force the only available option in there.  When the alternative is probably more of that painfully predictable, pedestrian offensive design we saw in the preseason, that nobody really seemed happy with.

 

We'll see.  It's hard to envision a player of Tavon's ilk getting force-fed touches in the NFL, today.  But it's also easy to see the corner they've potentially been backed into.  And stupid things happen when backed into a corner.

How did they back themselves into a corner? 

[Tugboat]

12 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

How did they back themselves into a corner? 

Pretty blatantly.  In choosing to build an offense intended to feature a particular "specialist" role only adequately filled by one player on the roster (with a 1st round selection priority on it).

I get it.  First year coming in to a new organization, you're building from nothing.  You often aren't going to have the sort of guys you want for your system all in the fold just waiting to be unleashed.  And you want to at least get started on building that team you want, with those specialists you need to do that.  There's not much else you can do about it.  But when something like this happens, it just exposes how thin and precarious things are in the early stages of building something.  To where you're backed into choosing between essentially ditching what was supposed to be a significant component of your offensive scheme...or slapping a subpar bandaid player on the situation and hoping for a miracle.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Tugboat

[.Buzz]

12 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

Pretty blatantly.  In choosing to build an offense intended to feature a particular "specialist" role only adequately filled by one player on the roster (with a 1st round selection priority on it).

I get it.  First year coming in to a new organization, you're building from nothing.  You often aren't going to have the sort of guys you want for your system all in the fold just waiting to be unleashed.  And you want to at least get started on building that team you want, with those specialists you need to do that.  There's not much else you can do about it.  But when something like this happens, it just exposes how thin and precarious things are in the early stages of building something.  To where you're backed into choosing between essentially ditching what was supposed to be a significant component of your offensive scheme...or slapping a subpar bandaid player on the situation and hoping for a miracle.

Etienne is a special athlete. Those don’t grow on trees and you’re not finding a guy with that type of skill set in the middle rounds or off the scrap heap in FA. Who were we getting to come here as WR4 or a backup RB with that type of skill set elsewhere?

I also am not sure what you’re talking about as an offense building around the above. It’s not like Bevells offenses in years prior have had a jack of all trades RB/WR. It was a luxury and would give us looks we normally wouldn’t have, but it’s not like our offense was dependent on Etienne and can’t function without him. Laviska doesn’t bring the same breakaway speed element but he most definitely can do similar things and be used out of the backfield, in the slot, etc.

Guess too each their own but really not sure what you expect.

[Tugboat]

8 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Etienne is a special athlete. Those don’t grow on trees and you’re not finding a guy with that type of skill set in the middle rounds or off the scrap heap in FA. Who were we getting to come here as WR4 or a backup RB with that type of skill set elsewhere?

I also am not sure what you’re talking about as an offense building around the above. It’s not like Bevells offenses in years prior have had a jack of all trades RB/WR. It was a luxury and would give us looks we normally wouldn’t have, but it’s not like our offense was dependent on Etienne and can’t function without him. Laviska doesn’t bring the same breakaway speed element but he most definitely can do similar things and be used out of the backfield, in the slot, etc.

Guess too each their own but really not sure what you expect.

Like i said...i get it.  You're not going to have those layers of depth year 1.  Especially not for such a "unique" athlete with such a highly desired premium skillset around the league.  There isn't much else they can realistically do about it.  You only have so many "premium assets" to acquire those type of pieces in a given offseason, and not enough to build layers and full redundancies.

But they're still undeniably backed into a corner with that.  And that's where you see teams start trying desperate things, forcing a square peg into a round hole, or retreating into deeply underwhelming "safe" alternatives.  It's just the reality of the situation.  It sucks.  There isn't a whole lot else they could've realistically done to abate this, all things considered.  But it's choosing the "least worst" option out of a couple bad ones...and it's almost certainly going to be frustrating to watch, whichever way they go.  That's pretty much the epitome of, "backed into a corner".

[.Buzz]

9 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

Like i said...i get it.  You're not going to have those layers of depth year 1.  Especially not for such a "unique" athlete with such a highly desired premium skillset around the league.  There isn't much else they can realistically do about it.  You only have so many "premium assets" to acquire those type of pieces in a given offseason, and not enough to build layers and full redundancies.

But they're still undeniably backed into a corner with that.  And that's where you see teams start trying desperate things, forcing a square peg into a round hole, or retreating into deeply underwhelming "safe" alternatives.  It's just the reality of the situation.  It sucks.  There isn't a whole lot else they could've realistically done to abate this, all things considered.  But it's choosing the "least worst" option out of a couple bad ones...and it's almost certainly going to be frustrating to watch, whichever way they go.  That's pretty much the epitome of, "backed into a corner".

But Tavon was brought in prior to any of this, and seemed to be doing well/viewed highly prior to the injury? It’s not like ETN went down and now they scrambled around, picked up Tavon, and trying to make due. Think with how he was playing depending on how many RBs/WRs they kept there was a chance even prior to ETN going down of him making it. He just happens to have a skill set and speed to potentially give them those type of looks now that they won’t be occupied.

What’s TEN’s plan if Henry goes down? Miami’s if Waddle goes down? Minnesota’s if Cook goes down? etc.? I can keep going on but I really don’t see what team has any “good” option waiting in the wings if a unique player goes out that not many people realistically can do. The team has Agnew who certainly brings that type of speed and is a WR. Laviska already had work behind center last year and gets used in a gadgety way often, etc. They may not have a clear cut ETN type but they definitely have guys who can likely do some similar things.

So I guess if we’re saying most teams that lose a unique player that they clearly don’t have a similar skill set behind them being backed into the corner if an injury happens I agree, but I don’t really see how a team can have a backup plan for just that, a unique player.

[pwny]

2 hours ago, .Buzz said:

How did they back themselves into a corner? 

I think *the corner they’ve been backed into* and backing themselves into a corner are largely different things.

Last year’s team was garbage in many ways, and one of them was a lack of speed on offense. With their attempt to address as many positions as possible to fill as many holes as Caldwell and his staff had built into the team, they weren’t able to create redundancies and the strength of depth for each role as one would like. Instead, they kinda had to stretch themselves thin on how they handled addressing these things, and one of those was by drafting ETN to be both a home run hitter as a runner and hopefully as a receiving threat as well. It was a great idea; get a guy who can help address two issues with the limited assets you have.

And then Tavon was a contingency for that. Normally, after you’ve been able to build your team for a while, you’re not recycling a guy like Tavon as the backup option, you’re using a second year 4th round pick who had a lot of speed but needed to develop other traits or whatever as the backup. And then you also have a UDFA that you’re bringing in to compete.

But it’s year one, trying to rebuild one of the worst teams in league history. So they didn’t have the resources to have a true starter, a true backup guy, and a development guy at the position for camp. Instead, we get a wash out as the backup option. Again, because it’s year one and they don’t have the resources to address everything yet.

The new staff didn’t back themselves into a corner; they were backed into the corner by a previous regime that didn’t find it necessary to have any speed on the offense, a devastating injury, and the unlucky situation that the injury happened at one of the positions that they weren’t yet able to start piling depth resources, and where the dynamic ability the player provides (++speed) is not existent elsewhere on the offense.

[.Buzz]

46 minutes ago, pwny said:

I think *the corner they’ve been backed into* and backing themselves into a corner are largely different things.

Last year’s team was garbage in many ways, and one of them was a lack of speed on offense. With their attempt to address as many positions as possible to fill as many holes as Caldwell and his staff had built into the team, they weren’t able to create redundancies and the strength of depth for each role as one would like. Instead, they kinda had to stretch themselves thin on how they handled addressing these things, and one of those was by drafting ETN to be both a home run hitter as a runner and hopefully as a receiving threat as well. It was a great idea; get a guy who can help address two issues with the limited assets you have.

And then Tavon was a contingency for that. Normally, after you’ve been able to build your team for a while, you’re not recycling a guy like Tavon as the backup option, you’re using a second year 4th round pick who had a lot of speed but needed to develop other traits or whatever as the backup. And then you also have a UDFA that you’re bringing in to compete.

But it’s year one, trying to rebuild one of the worst teams in league history. So they didn’t have the resources to have a true starter, a true backup guy, and a development guy at the position for camp. Instead, we get a wash out as the backup option. Again, because it’s year one and they don’t have the resources to address everything yet.

The new staff didn’t back themselves into a corner; they were backed into the corner by a previous regime that didn’t find it necessary to have any speed on the offense, a devastating injury, and the unlucky situation that the injury happened at one of the positions that they weren’t yet able to start piling depth resources, and where the dynamic ability the player provides (++speed) is not existent elsewhere on the offense.

I definitely get what you mean. I guess ETN’s situation to me isn’t so much about depth and rather just losing one of those special guys who truly isn’t replaceable. Not that we know he would have worked out, as I’m not suggesting he’s like Dalvin Cook/Henry/Kamara as I suggested above, but I just don’t see teams really having guys behind the above that if they go down there much of a “contingency plan” at all. They just have a unique skillset.

Like I wholeheartedly have agreed with your takes regarding the previous regime never taking into account injuries happen and yet consistently never focusing on getting quality depth, but this just seems to me like a whole different situation. I guess if we’re strictly talking speed on the offense I would agree with that (although again, that’s the craze nowadays and it’s hard to find a quality piece that possesses elite speed unless you’re using premium picks).

But we weren’t getting a “backup” or legit alternative to a guy like Etienne in the role he would have been deployed at imo. I don’t think we find a backup/alternative to what he does in the future unless we use a 1st, maybe 2nd round pick on it either. 

[.Buzz]

Now all I can think about if for some god awful reason James Robinson has to miss any time we have to watch Carlos Hyde.

I. Don’t. Want. It.

[pwny]

1 hour ago, .Buzz said:

I definitely get what you mean. I guess ETN’s situation to me isn’t so much about depth and rather just losing one of those special guys who truly isn’t replaceable. Not that we know he would have worked out, as I’m not suggesting he’s like Dalvin Cook/Henry/Kamara as I suggested above, but I just don’t see teams really having guys behind the above that if they go down there much of a “contingency plan” at all. They just have a unique skillset.

Like I wholeheartedly have agreed with your takes regarding the previous regime never taking into account injuries happen and yet consistently never focusing on getting quality depth, but this just seems to me like a whole different situation. I guess if we’re strictly talking speed on the offense I would agree with that (although again, that’s the craze nowadays and it’s hard to find a quality piece that possesses elite speed unless you’re using premium picks).

But we weren’t getting a “backup” or legit alternative to a guy like Etienne in the role he would have been deployed at imo. I don’t think we find a backup/alternative to what he does in the future unless we use a 1st, maybe 2nd round pick on it either. 

I don’t think it’s a black mark on the regime or anything. They did what they could with what they had, given the just absurd number of issues they had to address at once.

And no, you can’t ever fully replace a star guy when he goes down. But once you’ve hit a certain point in roster building (which takes more than one offseason), you have a roster that you can adjust to fill the void. Instead of a late offseason addition like Austin who you bring in as depth, you have a guy you drafted that you see as like a baby version of the player. You have guys at other positions who can maybe not run the same plays, but who you can get the ball to in a similar space.

 

The Saints with Kamara are a decent example of what I’m talking about with this. They brought in Lat Murray in 2019, and he’s a decent receiver; though he’s clearly much more of a spell type runner. Dwayne Washington is a former WR turned RB they’ve had around for a while. They have all the stuff they do with Taysom Hill. Michael Thomas is really, really good in those intermediate routes where Kamara is typically catching the ball. So when Kamara spent all of 2019 banged up, they didn’t miss a beat because they just funneled those types of plays to those other guys. The star player who can do similar things took over the lion’s share of the plays that would have gone there, and was sitting in similar places for the receptions to happen, and then all the other guys take up little bits of the roles until you can run at 90% of what it would have been with the guy who got hurt.

But it took 2016 to draft Thomas, 2017 to draft Kamara and Hill, 2018 to nab Dwayne Washington, and 2019 to get Murray.

If this injury had happened two years from now, and we had seen more from Shenault and knew he was the type of player who can take on an expanded role in an offense successfully, and the team had a burner in the slot, and we had drafted a guy that’s a baby version of ETN in the 5th round, it’d be much more “this sucks ****, but I think we can adjust and be okay”. But that comes with time, and I can’t imagine @Tugboat thinks it’s a black mark that it happened with the team like this. It’s just crappy and unfortunate that we built up a lot of the roster with “raise the floor/build up the depth” type signings, but addressed RB with a ceiling shattering type talent, and that guy gets hurt before he can take a snap.

It just sucks because it’s probably the one injury, sans [the one], that screws this team over the most. And doubly so because if the regime is a good one and it had happened in a year or two, there’s likely far more mitigation that can be done with the guys they would have continued to bring in to lessen just how much this is going to alter our offense design.

[Jags]

6 hours ago, .Buzz said:

Now all I can think about if for some god awful reason James Robinson has to miss any time we have to watch Carlos Hyde.

I. Don’t. Want. It.

That makes two of us. That would not be the most atrocious thing as he has averaged 4.4 the last couple of years.

[.Buzz]

11 minutes ago, Jags said:

That makes two of us. That would not be the most atrocious thing as he has averaged 4.4 the last couple of years.

Yeah he’s been solid. Getting up there though so I imagine the age hits at some point soon.