WindyCity Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said: Your not wrong in hindsight, but neither is every other team in the league who tries to go all out and build around a QB who they believe in while they're still on their rookie contract like Pace did with Mitch. And let's not forget that alot of you fans bought into the Mitch hype too so..... Criticize it all you want (and there is plenty to criticize) but Pace did it the way you are supposed to do it. He just chose the wrong QB do it behind. Just like many others. It isn’t the wrong process. Mitch’s rookie year was such a waste because of Fox and the terrible WRs Pace assembled… that he was literally making the Mack trade blind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Just now, JAF-N72EX said: I would agree with this, and the fact that this is still an issue 7 years later is a problem. No sugarcoating it. His best draft picks have been Roquan and Montgomery… who happen to play the least valuable positions. Elite players however. He drafts a lot of solid players. Very few difference makers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, WindyCity said: It isn’t the wrong process. Mitch’s rookie year was such a waste because of Fox and the terrible WRs Pace assembled… that he was literally making the Mack trade blind. I get what your saying. This also goes back to one of my issues with Pace. His choice in staff. But I also have a hard time separating whether it's Pace (or any GM like JA) making the decisions or if it's McCaskey/Teddy. That's a fine line. Edited January 10, 2022 by JAF-N72EX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 I have long said that both McCaskeys and Teddy need to do their jobs as businessmen and let the GM be a GM, and the GM let the HC be a HC. But that's not how it seems to work here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said: I have long said that both McCaskeys and Teddy need to do their jobs as businessmen and let the GM be a GM, and the GM let the HC be a HC. But that's not how it seems to work here. I think they gave Pace enough autonomy. Pace just torpedoed himself with Nagy. They even gave them another year to figure it out and Nagy was even more incompetent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 32 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said: I'm gonna keep going back this.....everyone was excited when we got Mack, but now that Pace didn't have the capital as most teams did for two years, everyone holds it against it him to fit a personal agenda. Drafting players is hard. Look at the rest of the league. I'm not. Mack is an impact player who is at worst going to be on a HOF ballot. We've seen his first and second round picks and I'd much rather get a proven player like Mack than most of what he has gotten. Mack was a massive reason Pace didn't have a losing record every year of his tenure here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, WindyCity said: I think they gave Pace enough autonomy. Pace just torpedoed himself with Nagy. They even gave them another year to figure it out and Nagy was even more incompetent. I just look at the McCaskey's past hirings and I see a strong relation to money. The people they tend to hire as HCs are cheaper because they had no HC experience, and the one they did hire with experience was well past his prime (Fox) EDIT: and not very good to begin with). They struck gold with Lovie but even he had his flaws. Edited January 10, 2022 by JAF-N72EX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, Sugashane said: I'm not. Mack is an impact player who is at worst going to be on a HOF ballot. We've seen his first and second round picks and I'd much rather get a proven player like Mack than most of what he has gotten. Mack was a massive reason Pace didn't have a losing record every year of his tenure here. When talking about drafts picks though, you are essentially using it against him because of how much capital he gave up to get Mack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 My take, I understand everyone's concerns about Pace (this has been bet to death). personally, I would be fine with Pace moving into a Teddy-like position because I do think he does have an eye for talent. My biggest issue is that I have no confidence in McC choosing a better GM and especially this year where I don't see any good option that pops out. Likewise at HC. I do see alot of good potential OCs tho....so that's promising for Fields sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 9 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said: When talking about drafts picks though, you are essentially using it against him because of how much capital he gave up to get Mack. No, I'm really not. He knew he was getting a massive HOF potential player whereas he has 50% chance of getting a good starter in the first. There is a probably 1 in 10 chance of him getting an impact player, and even less a HOF player. That was a positive to me, I'm not using it against him. I'm using his ACTUAL drafting against him. And yes these numbers are just arbitrary ones being thrown out there, I'm not digging for numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, Sugashane said: No, I'm really not. He knew he was getting a massive HOF potential player whereas he has 50% chance of getting a good starter in the first. There is a probably 1 in 10 chance of him getting an impact player, and even less a HOF player. That was a positive to me, I'm not using it against him. I'm using his ACTUAL drafting against him. So let me get this straight. Just so we're on the same page here. You like that he traded for Mack and gave up the amount of capital that he did because the likelihood he would draft a player with the same impact as Mack was unrealistic. Okay, I get that. But now you are using his drafting against him when he didn't have as much draft picks and capital to work with in 2019 and 2020 because of Mack deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 (edited) It's a double edge sword. That's what I'm saying. He banked on Mitch and he missed. If Mitch pans out then we most likely end up SB champs by now like KC. But he didn't. I'm not holding that against him. I will, however, hold it against him that he hasn't drafted a stud since Roquan, like I said to Windy. Edited January 10, 2022 by JAF-N72EX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 38 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said: My take, I understand everyone's concerns about Pace (this has been bet to death). personally, I would be fine with Pace moving into a Teddy-like position because I do think he does have an eye for talent. My biggest issue is that I have no confidence in McC choosing a better GM and especially this year where I don't see any good option that pops out. Likewise at HC. I do see alot of good potential OCs tho....so that's promising for Fields sake. I don’t think we are getting a real GM candidate in here to work under Pace. Real GM candidates aren’t going to want the past failed GM who got kicked upstairs so he could be friends with the owner looking over their shoulder. If Pace isn’t good enough to be your GM then just fire him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said: So let me get this straight. Just so we're on the same page here. You like that he traded for Mack and gave up the amount of capital that he did because the likelihood he would draft a player with the same impact as Mack was unrealistic. Okay, I get that.But now you are using his drafting against him when he didn't have as much draft picks and capital to work with in 2019 and 2020 because of Mack deal. First yes. Second no. I'm giving him a ton of props for the Moody and Gipson pick (though Gipson may flame out like Nichols and Miller did so I want to see another season before he gets to take a chance at EDGE as a starter. Still for a 5th, awesome though), I'm not going to bash that. He got great value out of 2 fifth rounders. Johnson was a pick I was behind and liked too. Kmet - I hated the pick and didn't even think he should have been in the conversation there. Kmet is JAG and that IMO is a bad pick. I'd have much rather traded back to gather more swings for Pace. I'm usually a fan of trading back though. For 2019 I don't really care about. Monty is a good pick, Ridley was a bad pick but you're going to have misses. Three guys in the 6th and 7th rounds are just bonuses if they do anything. If looking at Pace not having as many picks though, remember he traded a third, fourth, and fifth to get the third for Monty and a 6th. He limited his own draft picks there too. My only issue with that is that Nagy hasn't featured Monty in the passing game at all after we kept hearing how Howard wasn't a fit because he wasn't a good receiver. But yet he gets like 3 targets per game... As a safety net with a mediocre OL. Ridiculous, but that's on Nagy so irrelevant to the conversation. I'm only judging by picks made when I say he only drafted X in the top two rounds. I should probably clarify that he had 5 years of swings in those rounds but I'm not going to use the picks he didn't have against him or act like the Mack trade was a poor one. It was probably my favorite move of Pace's When he doesn't re-sign a player he drafted high to me that is a negative too. Floyd isn't a plus to me because he traded up to get a guy for a role he sucked at, and was lucky Floyd was versatile offball player. That isn't a positive for Pace to me because he was traded up for and drafted top 10 to be here for a rental. Of his first 27 picks he re-signed Goldman (looking bad), DHC (depth, I'm good with that), Bush (ST and depth, fine), Whitehair (overpaid for what he has given but a player that was worth re-signing for sure), Cohen (top 15 AAV for a rotational scatback was stupid), EJax (looking worse and worse). Now he has Smith (better get re-signed), Daniels (don't overpay), Iggy (ST signing at most), Nichols (please don't overpay). I also hold it against him that his best two picks from his first two classes are productive for other teams while their replacements here have floundered (DT for Floyd and EJax for Amos - I know they are different safeties but Pace had two safeties to pick from to pay and gave a huge contract for EJax to be outplayed in spades by Amos - and that is on Pace). 46 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said: It's a double edge sword. That's what I'm saying. He banked on Mitch and he missed. If Mitch pans out then we most likely end up SB champs by now like KC. But he didn't. I'm holding that against him. I will, however, hold it against him that he hasn't drafted a stud since Roquan, like I said to Windy. Banked on Nagy too and missed that simultaneously. And with a better pick as HC he may have done that too. Reich, Vrabel or even Gruden would have done better with supporting and developing Tru IMO. Yes I'm ignoring the fact that Gruden is a POS, just talking about of HCs hired that year. I just don't see what Pace has done that shows he SHOULD be retained. Yes it can be worse, but we can find worse HCs than Nagy too but I'm not for keeping him because of it. Dude put out an offense scoring less than 2 ppg more than what we got under Fox with a receiving core led by Kendall Wright, Bellamy, and Dion Sims. Pace retained THAT level of coach. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 I'd take a long look at Brian Flores 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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