Do you know enough to give up on Deshone Kizer?

[Thomas5737]

24 minutes ago, NudeTayne said:

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, NudeTayne said:

 

 

 

[NudeTayne]

1 minute ago, Thomas5737 said:

 

 

I guess that's one way to look at it.

[NudeTayne]

1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said:

We may have an inconsistent running game but only 7 NFL teams average more per rush. We average .2 yards per carry more than the Rams they just run it more. We've ran it 55 times less than the Rams but have passed 58 more times. We've also taken 17 more sacks so it is even more lopsided that it appears. So that is 7th most attempts per game and 27th most yards per game. Rushing we are tied for 8th best yards per attempts and 25 in attempts. Sure, being behind plays a part in that as it has for the Giants and the 49ers but even though they are both bottom 10 in passer rating (SF is 31st) they are considerably better than our passing attack.

A lot of that is coaching putting us in a position to lose by continuing to go with a heavy passing attack when it isn't working and when it isn't necessary. Take the Jaguar game, they were #1 in passing defense and bottom 10 in rush defense. It was cold, wet and windy. We attempted 32 passes and took 5 sacks. The QB turned it over 4 times. We ran 13 times with running backs for a total of 28 yards, not good but no turnovers and not enough attempts over the course of a game to really say it failed (3 carries per quarter). We lost by 12 with 16 points coming off of turnover from the passing game.

Would we have won if we went run heavy? Hard to say but there is a 100% chance we lose if we go pass heavy because we saw it. Our QB is a turnover machine. Our coach is putting the game in his hands. You end up getting what is to be expected. Losses.

For anyone who still has faith in Hue as an offensive guy, read the above and tell me you couldn't have put together a better game plan based on what you saw coming into and during the game.

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, NudeTayne said:

For anyone who still has faith in Hue as an offensive guy, read the above and tell me you couldn't have put together a better game plan based on what you saw coming into and during the game.

I had very little faith in Hue as the season progressed but me, you and pretty much everyone else knew the best way to win the Jacksonville game. I think I said 15 pass attempts maximum and if we have a bunch of three and outs running the ball so be it we'll take our chances with our run defense and Blake Bortles passing. The only way we get blown out of the Jaguar game is if we have a bunch of turnovers so if we control those we should have a chance late in the game. Even with those turnovers we had a chance late in the game until the final turnover. It does beg the question; what the score would have been late in the game if we were run heavy and didn't have those turnovers. We'll never know but it sure seems like we would have had a  better chance to win that game.

The Jaguars had a 47 yard drive that resulted in a FG that game, it wasn't off of a turnover. Their second longest drive of the game was 35 yards.

Our first 4 drives we had 4 total yards and a pick. The running game (by running backs) in those drives were 4 carries for 18 yards. The next drive was pass heavy and Kizer played well. We had negative yards to finish the rest of the half. Still, we were in the game. Down 3 with the ball to start the 4th. All passes on the first 3 and out drive. The following three drives all ended in Kizer turnovers. Kizer had more turnovers in the 4th quarter than we had running back carries in the quarter. In a one score game up until his last fumble that returned for 6.

Good times.

[NudeTayne]

2 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

I had very little faith in Hue as the season progressed but me, you and pretty much everyone else knew the best way to win the Jacksonville game. I think I said 15 pass attempts maximum and if we have a bunch of three and outs running the ball so be it we'll take our chances with our run defense and Blake Bortles passing. The only way we get blown out of the Jaguar game is if we have a bunch of turnovers so if we control those we should have a chance late in the game. Even with those turnovers we had a chance late in the game until the final turnover. It does beg the question; what the score would have been late in the game if we were run heavy and didn't have those turnovers. We'll never know but it sure seems like we would have had a  better chance to win that game.

The Jaguars had a 47 yard drive that resulted in a FG that game, it wasn't off of a turnover. Their second longest drive of the game was 35 yards.

Our first 4 drives we had 4 total yards and a pick. The running game (by running backs) in those drives were 4 carries for 18 yards. The next drive was pass heavy and Kizer played well. We had negative yards to finish the rest of the half. Still, we were in the game. Down 3 with the ball to start the half. All passes on the first 3 and out drive. The following three drives all ended in Kizer turnovers. Kizer had more turnovers in the 4th quarter than we had running back carries in the quarter. In a one score game up until his last fumble that returned for 6.

Good times.

Agreed on all points.  I hope ownership puts this on Hue's shoulders and give Sashi & Co. a bit longer for their rebuild attempt.  I'm happy enough with our drafts/trades/signings thus far to continue to trust in the front office's plan.

[H2ThaIzzo]

14 hours ago, buno67 said:

still, if you knew it was going to be a major project, you bring in support. If he knew it was going to be that demanding, then he is causing issues because now he is devoting more time to the offense and the duties of being an OC than focusing on being a HC. I have never heard an issue for losing was having too many coaches. Heck the more offensive minds the better. 

You would want Hue to spend all this time and effort on the offense and once everything is figured out, he should bring in a guy to take over it? Why? If Hue was able to turn the offense around by himself and not lose the entire team, why go to an OC now? Why not reap the rewards of your effort? The job is going to be easier, why change.

Prolly would of been smarter to have an OC. He is another offensive mind to help with scheming and game planning. Everyone will see things different and can come up with ideas and adjustments. I know when I coached, I had a lot less experience than the coaches around me. I would see things different and always brought up ideas or concepts that the others didnt pick up. I dont know how that would hurt coach. If the OC wasnt really working out with Hue, it gives him out by being able to fire the OC. He could of always gone that he wasnt happy that the OC was going against the idea of running the ball, going against the idea of featuring Duke as the main weapon and so far. Hue wanted to the extra duties, now he has to bear the negatives of it. 

Also if Hue was forecasting this rebuild/tear down with young talent, having another coach on staff to help them would of done nothing but benefit them. 

Hindsight is 20/20. Hue is an offensive guy. Let's say he hired an OC that he really respected and had groomed for the job, and our offensive performance has been what it has been. Guarantee fans are calling for the guy to be let go. Guarantee the organization feels the pressure to consider that. As far as the coaching staff goes that's really the only position that Hue could have kept himself while being HC. I'm not saying we wouldn't have seen better results had he hired someone, I do think him playing both roles has had some pretty big downfalls to his ability to lead the team. But I still think he wanted to be the man to take the hits offensively early on in the event that the worst case scenario happened, which we can all see has happened, and not find himself in a spot where he has to can a guy that he didn't want to can. 

[buno67]

7 hours ago, H2ThaIzzo said:

Hindsight is 20/20. Hue is an offensive guy. Let's say he hired an OC that he really respected and had groomed for the job, and our offensive performance has been what it has been. Guarantee fans are calling for the guy to be let go. Guarantee the organization feels the pressure to consider that. As far as the coaching staff goes that's really the only position that Hue could have kept himself while being HC. I'm not saying we wouldn't have seen better results had he hired someone, I do think him playing both roles has had some pretty big downfalls to his ability to lead the team. But I still think he wanted to be the man to take the hits offensively early on in the event that the worst case scenario happened, which we can all see has happened, and not find himself in a spot where he has to can a guy that he didn't want to can. 

I dont think Hue didnt hire an OC so he could yield the shield to take the hits. I dont know if I call it hindsight, there were a few ppl that were scratching their head on why he wasnt going to hire an OC. We all knew he is an offensive guy but no one knew he was going to be so anal about being in total control of the offense. 

No one hires an OC hoping to fire them, but with the way the Browns are playing. '16 the offense was 31st in points, 30th in yards, 28th in passing yards, 30th in passing TDs, 19th in rushing yards, 16th in rushing TDs. They were 2nd in yards per attempt but was 31st in the league in rushing attempts. This year they are 32nd in points, 28th in yards, 27th in passing yards and 31st in yards per attempts but yet they are 4th in the league in passing attempts. They are 23rd in rushing attempts and rushing yards but are 12th in yards per rushing attempt and 12th in rushing TDs (Kizer inflates that number).

If your OC has that kind of resume, why would you worry about having to fire him? Dude proved that he doesnt have what it takes. If the Browns had a legit OC, plenty of people would be calling for his head. Its not like everyone was expecting this team to be a top10/top15 offense. You would just hope they would have an offense that makes senses. Browns have a decent OL/RB and a rookie QB, so freaking run the ball, no they are 4th in the league in passing. Looking at the two QBs I wish the Browns currently had, Goff/Rams have only taken the 24th most passing attempts and Wentz/Eagles have only taken the 25th most passing attempts. You have young QBs, dont throw them to the freaking fire, hell the eagle have had 6 different non-QBs have a rushing attempt this year. Browns freaking two. 

Just trying to say, what Hue has done as the OC has been pathetic. He hasnt formed any kind of identity and his gameplanning/scripting looks like crap. Hue wanted to take control of the offense, well he has to accept the blow back. He should be fired alone because of the way he handled the offense and tried to have the ego to do so. He would be such a better HC if he had an OC.

[pnies20]

Kizer looks better with the addition of Corey Coleman. Hopefully with Gordon back we will continue to see improvement.

 

If Kizer continues to improve, i have a feeling he will start next year with a rookie sitting And learning.

[H2ThaIzzo]

1 hour ago, buno67 said:

I dont think Hue didnt hire an OC so he could yield the shield to take the hits.

No one hires an OC hoping to fire them, but with the way the Browns are playing. '16 the offense was 31st in points, 30th in yards, 28th in passing yards, 30th in passing TDs, 19th in rushing yards, 16th in rushing TDs. They were 2nd in yards per attempt but was 31st in the league in rushing attempts. This year they are 32nd in points, 28th in yards, 27th in passing yards and 31st in yards per attempts but yet they are 4th in the league in passing attempts. They are 23rd in rushing attempts and rushing yards but are 12th in yards per rushing attempt and 12th in rushing TDs (Kizer inflates that number).

If your OC has that kind of resume, why would you worry about having to fire him? Dude proved that he doesnt have what it takes. If the Browns had a legit OC, plenty of people would be calling for his head. Its not like everyone was expecting this team to be a top10/top15 offense. You would just hope they would have an offense that makes senses. Browns have a decent OL/RB and a rookie QB, so freaking run the ball, no they are 4th in the league in passing. Looking at the two QBs I wish the Browns currently had, Goff/Rams have only taken the 24th most passing attempts and Wentz/Eagles have only taken the 25th most passing attempts. You have young QBs, dont throw them to the freaking fire, hell the eagle have had 6 different non-QBs have a rushing attempt this year. Browns freaking two. 

Just trying to say, what Hue has done as the OC has been pathetic. He hasnt formed any kind of identity and his gameplanning/scripting looks like crap. Hue wanted to take control of the offense, well he has to accept the blow back. He should be fired alone because of the way he handled the offense and tried to have the ego to do so. He would be such a better HC if he had an OC.

Shanahan is doing the same thing in San Francisco. They are right there with us among the bottom in the league in scoring. 

 

And it wouldn't matter what accolades an OC had before coming here, if we had an offensive coordinator and we were seeing the results we see currently, everyone would be calling for him to be fired. 

[buno67]

1 hour ago, H2ThaIzzo said:

Shanahan is doing the same thing in San Francisco. They are right there with us among the bottom in the league in scoring. 

 

And it wouldn't matter what accolades an OC had before coming here, if we had an offensive coordinator and we were seeing the results we see currently, everyone would be calling for him to be fired. 

I still think that isnt the smartest thing. Why eliminate a coach when they can help. Being a HC, you should worry about all aspects and not just the offense. You can have final say on the offense and what not but let the OC worry about the other things. Its like we know BB controls the Pats defense, McCarthy controls the packers offense, and so fourth but they let the coordinators do their job but know the HC basically has final say. 

Yeah I agree, the OC would be fired, so Hue shouldnt get a past. You either force him to hire an OC or you fire Hue. His record shows a lack of talent vs the top tier teams but a lack of coaching vs the bottom tier teams. Its like Hue was smart enough to know Ray Horton wasnt getting the job done. Hue needs to recognize that he isnt getting the job done as the OC.

[H2ThaIzzo]

1 hour ago, buno67 said:

I still think that isnt the smartest thing. Why eliminate a coach when they can help. Being a HC, you should worry about all aspects and not just the offense. You can have final say on the offense and what not but let the OC worry about the other things. Its like we know BB controls the Pats defense, McCarthy controls the packers offense, and so fourth but they let the coordinators do their job but know the HC basically has final say. 

Yeah I agree, the OC would be fired, so Hue shouldnt get a past. You either force him to hire an OC or you fire Hue. His record shows a lack of talent vs the top tier teams but a lack of coaching vs the bottom tier teams. Its like Hue was smart enough to know Ray Horton wasnt getting the job done. Hue needs to recognize that he isnt getting the job done as the OC.

where to start...

okay so this entire regime was brought in and sold us, as well as the staff on this being a "process" and the roster was broken down to nothing and built back up. Well, we are still in the building back up process. Aside from our HOF LT we had no offensive weapons at all, and we were selling everyone on this process vs the importance of winning immediately. How would it make us better if he hired an OC that he had to fire after one or two seasons? Better yet how likely is it to fire your OC after that little time and actually get a legitimate upgrade the next season? We lucked out with Gregg Williams over Horton, but thats not the norm. 

 

This will be year 3 of the rebuild. I absolutely think Hue will hire an offensive coordinator so he can focus on the overall team and his QB's. 

[buno67]

7 minutes ago, H2ThaIzzo said:

where to start...

okay so this entire regime was brought in and sold us, as well as the staff on this being a "process" and the roster was broken down to nothing and built back up. Well, we are still in the building back up process. Aside from our HOF LT we had no offensive weapons at all, and we were selling everyone on this process vs the importance of winning immediately. How would it make us better if he hired an OC that he had to fire after one or two seasons? Better yet how likely is it to fire your OC after that little time and actually get a legitimate upgrade the next season? We lucked out with Gregg Williams over Horton, but thats not the norm. 

 

This will be year 3 of the rebuild. I absolutely think Hue will hire an offensive coordinator so he can focus on the overall team and his QB's. 

I never said I expected the Browns to have this top tier offense. I knew it was a process but what Hue is doing with the offense, is not good. There is nothing that sticks out about his offense. I didnt want to see a top15 scoring unit. I wanted to see a team with an identity. Some development in the QBs. No QBs last year improved over the season. Kessler regressed and Hogan doesnt look any better. Hues gameplan seems to be completely awful. The scripting of plays and his opening drives have been pretty awful.

It worked for the defense to fire the DC that wasnt working, so why couldnt it of worked for the offense. Yes Browns got luckyl with Williams but they didnt fire Horton to go after him. They fired Horton and than played the field for the DCs. 

Hell if this is a process, then have the Browns go after one of the more promising QB coaches. Rams offense looks pretty legit. McVay went after one of the best QB coaches to be his OC. The Rams is his offense, so he went after a young guy with potential to help him and be his OC. 

I sure hope as hell that he hires an OC. Should of hired one from the beginning. He should of know how tough of a job it was going to be the Browns coach,  then should of known it be even harder with it be a total rebuild. 

[H2ThaIzzo]

1 hour ago, buno67 said:

I never said I expected the Browns to have this top tier offense. I knew it was a process but what Hue is doing with the offense, is not good. There is nothing that sticks out about his offense. I didnt want to see a top15 scoring unit. I wanted to see a team with an identity. Some development in the QBs. No QBs last year improved over the season. Kessler regressed and Hogan doesnt look any better. Hues gameplan seems to be completely awful. The scripting of plays and his opening drives have been pretty awful.

It worked for the defense to fire the DC that wasnt working, so why couldnt it of worked for the offense. Yes Browns got luckyl with Williams but they didnt fire Horton to go after him. They fired Horton and than played the field for the DCs. 

Hell if this is a process, then have the Browns go after one of the more promising QB coaches. Rams offense looks pretty legit. McVay went after one of the best QB coaches to be his OC. The Rams is his offense, so he went after a young guy with potential to help him and be his OC. 

I sure hope as hell that he hires an OC. Should of hired one from the beginning. He should of know how tough of a job it was going to be the Browns coach,  then should of known it be even harder with it be a total rebuild. 

Yeah, that isn't true at all. Go back and look at the reports. Horton didn't expect to be let go, and essentially we announced his firing at the same time we announced we had hired Williams. 

 

We can go after a young position coach, but we have to get the teams permission to interview them which isn't easy. Lefleur going to the Rams only got to happen because Shanahan got his HC job and Atlanta was bringing in Sark who likely was going to want his own guys under him. 

[buno67]

Just now, H2ThaIzzo said:

Yeah, that isn't true at all. Go back and look at the reports. Horton didn't expect to be let go, and essentially we announced his firing at the same time we announced we had hired Williams. 

 

We can go after a young position coach, but we have to get the teams permission to interview them which isn't easy. Lefleur going to the Rams only got to happen because Shanahan got his HC job and Atlanta was bringing in Sark who likely was going to want his own guys under him. 

I remember Wade Philips being considered as the DC along as Williams in those reports. Everyone wanted Wade because the team already had a 3-4 base. With how everything moved, they had their minds made up on firing Horton. They never officially did it but you knew he was on the way out. The writing was on the wall, hence why Williams and Wade were both contacted.  Its not like they went after and interviewed a bunch of people. They knew which DCs they wanted and went after them. They knew they were going to fire Horton. 

I am pretty sure the permission aspect comes to when its a lateral move. Hence why Shanny used a power point to get out of the browns OC position to become the Falcons OCs. Positional Coach to Coordinator is a vertical move , permission isnt needed. If you didnt need permission, what would stop a QB from going after the best QB coach to replace their current coach under contract. It stops a lot of shadiness. 

[Iamcanadian]

On 11/23/2017 at 1:32 AM, brownie man said:

your delusional 

I've read alot of bad stuff on here

but that was pretty poor even for the worst of FF 

Yeah, well I believe San Fran is doing exactly the same thing. They traded for Garoppolo, but he is riding the bench, while they continue to lose under Barkley??? Once they can see exactly where they will draft and the #2 overall pick is guaranteed, they will start Garro to give him some playing time to prepare him for next season. If that isn't tanking, I do not know what is???

Shanny's a pretty clever HC, having learned a lot from his dad and I suspect they want that high pick to help rebuild their team for next season. They know they will not make the playoffs this year, so they look to be tanking as well.

Dilusional, then tell me, why would they release McCown and go right from the start of the season with a rookie QB, drafted in round 2. They had to know he would be terrible and almost guarantee at best a 1 win season or worse.

IMO, if that is what our FO did, it is the only positive move they have made. Of course, we will never know, because they can never come out and say so, without getting a huge penalty in picks, but delusional, I don't think so!!!