Lions trade TE T.J. Hockenson to Vikings for 2nd, swap of picks

[tyler735]

30 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Change it then. Is Alex Pierce a better athlete than Tyreek Hill, yes or no? And if no, are they comparably athletic, in the same tier?

[nagahide13]

18 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Change it then. Is Alex Pierce a better athlete than Tyreek Hill, yes or no? And if no, are they comparably athletic, in the same tier?

Really depends on what we're talking about. Is Penei Sewell a better athlete than Lebron James? Hill's RAS is lower because he's small. All of his other measurables are off the charts. Pierce is just bigger but (at least according to RAS) has poor agility. They give Pierce a huge jump because of his size. I don't think it would be too terrible to say that they are comparably athletic. Hill is clearly a better player, but athleticism is pretty subjective and clearly is (at best) only one factor in determining how good a player is.

[tyler735]

36 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

Really depends on what we're talking about. Is Penei Sewell a better athlete than Lebron James? Hill's RAS is lower because he's small. All of his other measurables are off the charts. Pierce is just bigger but (at least according to RAS) has poor agility. They give Pierce a huge jump because of his size. I don't think it would be too terrible to say that they are comparably athletic. Hill is clearly a better player, but athleticism is pretty subjective and clearly is (at best) only one factor in determining how good a player is.

Edited December 29, 2022 by tyler735

[nagahide13]

Pretty clear example of someone that doesn't understand the meaning of words. Meme away.

[tyler735]

Apparently you don’t even understand the words you attempted to say. If you think “I don’t think it would be too terrible to say they are comparably athletic” in regards to Tyreek Hill and Alec Pierce is a reasonable statement. That may go down as an all timer of bad takes on this forum (and there have been some bad ones over the years). At least the other guy making the terrible RAS arguments had the piece of mind to know their ship was sunk with the Hill/Pierce comparison, but you doubled down on it 😂

Edited December 29, 2022 by tyler735

[Soko]

1 hour ago, nagahide13 said:

Really depends on what we're talking about. Is Penei Sewell a better athlete than Lebron James?

No.

1 hour ago, nagahide13 said:

Hill's RAS is lower because he's small. All of his other measurables are off the charts. Pierce is just bigger but (at least according to RAS) has poor agility. They give Pierce a huge jump because of his size.

Which is one of the reasons why RAS isn’t the end-all for athleticism. 

1 hour ago, nagahide13 said:

I don't think it would be too terrible to say that they are comparably athletic. 

You are certifiably high, my friend.

[nagahide13]

Tyreek Hill was drafted in the 5th. Pick 165. Pierce was picked in the 2nd. Pick 53. Why do you think Pierce was drafted higher than Hill? Based on measurements and expectation, he was projected to be better. Simple.

RAS isn't the end-all for anything. It's a collection of statistics that people use to judge someone's potential. It doesn't take into account Hill's elite routes or Pierce being on the Colts. RAS actually supports Hill in this argument. It's a tool that people use to find undervalued players that have incredible potential... LIKE TYREEK HILL.

You are both simply confused as to what is going on here. People are talking about potential and you're screaming about current production. Hock has the potential to be pretty good. It hasn't come about yet, and that's not for athleticism reasons.

@Yin-Yang, what do you think athleticism is? Just speed and agility?

Edited December 29, 2022 by nagahide13

[tyler735]

“You are both simply confused as to what is going on here. People are talking about potential and you're screaming about current production. Hock has the potential to be pretty good. It hasn't come about yet, and that's not for athleticism reasons.”

 

No. That is not what is going on here. This argument (when RAS and Hill/Pierce were brought into it) began with a poster stating that Hockenson was an “elite” athlete for the TE position. I believe most people would disagree with that statement. Hockenson is a good athlete, few would argue that. Calling him an elite athlete simply isn’t accurate. He’s not Kittle or Kelce. Guys like Waller and Pitts are clearly more athletic. You could argue a number of other guys as well being more athletic (Fant, Engram, Woods, etc.)

 

Also regarding “where” Hill was drafted. There probably wasn’t anything Hill did in college off the field that would have dropped him down draft boards and played a significant role in his college career not going as planned. Had to have just been “measurements and expectation”.
 

Not like Hill had already established himself as an Elite athlete in high school with track times that had him as one of the fastest High School sprinters ever in the US. In other words, he was by far the fastest football player in his recruiting class, and among the fastest in the world in his age category. He won multiple medals at the world junior championships and has posted times on the track that only a handful of NFL players have ever been able to post. 
 

But let’s say “it’s not terrible” to compare a dime a dozen WR in Alec Pierce that’s 6’3” 210lbs with 4.4 speed to Hill athletically. A guy who has rare explosiveness that only a handful of NFL players in the history of the league have been able to match. Because an RAS says so. 
 

“what do you think athleticism is? Just speed and agility?” 

For a position such as WR/TE, speed and agility is a massive part of the assessment. More significant for WR than TE, but still significant for both, which makes these Pierce to Hill athleticism comparisons all the more asinine.

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by tyler735

[Soko]

1 hour ago, nagahide13 said:

Tyreek Hill was drafted in the 5th. Pick 165. Pierce was picked in the 2nd. Pick 53. Why do you think Pierce was drafted higher than Hill? Based on measurements and expectation, he was projected to be better. Simple.

Lol. Using draft status in a topic of athleticism…

Jarvis Jones got drafted higher than Justin Houston. Bjoern Werner went higher than Danielle Hunter. N’Keal Harry went higher than DK Metcalf. Kyle Rudolph went higher than George Kittle. Sony Michel went before Alvin Kamara. 

Teams definitely fall for athleticism at times, but using that to justify two guys being comparably athletic makes no sense whatsoever. Elite athletes get taken late often. Next you’ll tell me Carson Wentz has a higher football IQ than Tom Brady because he got drafted higher and scored better on the wonderlic.

1 hour ago, nagahide13 said:

RAS isn't the end-all for anything. It's a collection of statistics that people use to judge someone's potential. It doesn't take into account Hill's elite routes or Pierce being on the Colts. RAS actually supports Hill in this argument. It's a tool that people use to find undervalued players that have incredible potential... LIKE TYREEK HILL.

It isn’t the end-all. Unfortunately, that’s all that’s being referenced as it pertains to Kelce/Kittle & Hockensen, which is why I brought up the holes in it in the first place. Glad you’ve finally caught up.

1 hour ago, nagahide13 said:

You are both simply confused as to what is going on here. People are talking about potential and you're screaming about current production. Hock has the potential to be pretty good. It hasn't come about yet, and that's not for athleticism reasons.

Lmao. Quite literally never brought up production in regards to Pierce/Hill, or Hock vs Kelce/Kittle. Check again. Guy said Hock’s an elite athlete and the only explanation given was RAS. Hock is as much to Pitts as Pierce is to Hill (ie. not comparable athletes). You don’t need elite athleticism to be an elite player, especially at tight end.

1 hour ago, nagahide13 said:

@Yin-Yang, what do you think athleticism is? Just speed and agility?

Lots goes into it. Largely based on physical movements, but size does go into it, to an extent. If you have two guys that move similarly but have significant size differences, then it becomes more of a factor. Changes a lot when you look at different positions (or different sports), then you have to weigh things. Aaron Donald is a better athlete than most of the league’s WRs, but doesn’t move as well as them (he probably does tbh). When it comes to two TEs that are virtually the same size, I’m not going to factor in minor differences in size if the other guy is showing way better movement ability on the field.

What makes no sense, however, is saying Player X with elite physical traits is comparable to Player Y with no elite physical traits because Player Y is 6’2 and has bigger hands, lol. There’s no universe where, after watching them, you say Alec Pierce and Tyreek Hill are similarly athletic…without drugs or alcohol involved. Same goes for Hockensen and the “elite athletes” at TE (Pitts).

Edited December 29, 2022 by Yin-Yang

[nagahide13]

Hill/Pierce was not my comparison so calling it asinine isn't really my problem. The entire point of the (obviously) flawed RAS system is to compare and combine different measurements into one score. Two people with a similar score are obviously comparable within that system.

@battle2heavens whole thing was talking about Hocks' potential. He said elite athleticism once and took it back. He was just comparing him to Kelce and Kittle in terms of athleticism, which is totally respectable.

Whole thing is nonsense.

 

 

[nagahide13]

7 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Lol. Using draft status in a topic of athleticism…

Jarvis Jones got drafted higher than Justin Houston. Bjoern Werner went higher than Danielle Hunter. N’Keal Harry went higher than DK Metcalf. Kyle Rudolph went higher than George Kittle. Sony Michel went before Alvin Kamara. 

Teams definitely fall for athleticism at times, but using that to justify two guys being comparably athletic makes no sense whatsoever. Elite athletes get taken late often. Next you’ll tell me Carson Wentz has a higher football IQ than Tom Brady because he got drafted higher and scored better on the wonderlic.

Draft status was brought up because Hill was drafted late with a high RAS and is very good, which is a argument both in favor of RAS and Hill. You're reaching for weird arguments where they don't exist.

6 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Same goes for Hockensen and the “elite athletes” at TE (Pitts).

And Pitts score is significantly higher than Hockenson's. I have definitely not made any argument about the two of them.

Edited December 29, 2022 by nagahide13

[tyler735]

“Hill/Pierce was not my comparison so calling it asinine isn't really my problem.”

It wouldn’t have been your problem if you read that initial comparison and just moved on with your day without replying and stating that it “isn’t a terrible comparison”. Now it is very much your problem 😂
 

 

[Soko]

13 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

Draft status was brought up because Hill was drafted late with a high RAS and is very good, which is a argument both in favor of RAS and Hill. You're reaching for weird arguments where they don't exist.

[insert players drafted high with high RAS that ended up being terrible, Vernon Gholston, Dion Jordan, doesn’t matter]

[insert guys drafted high with high RAS that did well, Myles Garrett, doesn’t matter]

[insert guys drafted higher than Hill with bad RAS that did well, Deebo Samuel]

[insert guys drafted low with low RAS that did well, Antonio Brown]

Almost as if draft status is completely irrelevant in this conversation. 

13 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

And Pitts score is significantly higher than Hockenson's. I have definitely not made any argument about the two of them.

Guy said Hockensen is an elite athlete at TE. If you’re not comparable to an elite athlete at TE, then aren’t you not an elite athlete? Sort of like how Alec Pierce isn’t on the same astral plane as Tyreek Hill as an athlete. Or if you don’t want to use Alec Pierce, we can throw in Chase Claypool or Braylon Edwards or Miles Austin - all better athletes than Tyreek…apparently.

Also as a reminder, I still never brought up production between Hock/the other guys or Pierce/Hill. I don’t know why you said that.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Yin-Yang

[Forge]

1 hour ago, nagahide13 said:

Tyreek Hill was drafted in the 5th. Pick 165. Pierce was picked in the 2nd. Pick 53. Why do you think Pierce was drafted higher than Hill? Based on measurements and expectation, he was projected to be better. Simple.

 

I mean, Hill did beat a pregnant woman too, so maybe you lack some context or data here? 

I agree with some of what you said, but this statement is a little absurd when you account for the relatively huge amount of info that is simply being disregarded (off field issues, transfer, limited play, position change) so I had to step in on this one. 

[Scoundrel]

35 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Kyle Rudolph went higher than George Kittle. Sony Michel went before Alvin Kamara. 

These aren’t the same draft classes... comparing players and where they were picked in different draft classes is pointless.