diamondbull424 Posted November 19, 2022 Share Posted November 19, 2022 21 hours ago, Yin-Yang said: OL still helps a lot. Big difference when you’re scrambling with one man bearing down on you vs three. Or if your tackles are more or less holding their ground in pass protection vs getting walked back into the QB. Or defenders penetrating up the middle vs not. If the defense is able to control the LOS it makes a world’s difference. Lamar’s got a really good feel for that kind of stuff, which IMO is what really separates him from Fields as far as scrambling goes. That, and his superior agility (which I believe is harder to defend than a more physical but less agile QB). It sounds like you’re arguing the OL is going to help increased the QBs efficiency as a scrambler? Which while I think it’s nuanced, I don’t necessarily disagree and am more inclined to agree with you. However if the OL is good, is it logical to assume the QB is going to run more or less? Probably less as he’s got more time to find open WRs, correct. Thus the inverse would be a bad OL means the QB is going to be more likely to take off to pickup yards. Which is going to increase the QB volume of rushing yards… which has been the argument for Fields in comparison to Lamar vs a comparison of actual skill set, athleticism, and tools as runners of the football. In terms of the nuance, from the perspective of an OL entirely imploding I agree, but if it’s just a standard below average to bad OL, I think an athletic QB if facing an unprepared rush, they can let the DL get upfield and then sneak behind them for huge gains. So while I think the quality of second level blocks matter in all instances, the quality of the OL blocks matter only in as far as the entirety of the interior doesn’t collapse and that they just keep the DL from crowding the LOS to make an early tackle on the scrambler. But I’d be interested in seeing stats that might give an affirmation in either direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted November 19, 2022 Share Posted November 19, 2022 14 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said: However if the OL is good, is it logical to assume the QB is going to run more or less? Probably less as he’s got more time to find open WRs, correct. Generally, yeah, I’d say that’s a safe assumption. Not 100% sure how big of a factor it is only because both teams’ WRs, in this scenario, are…pretty underwhelming at best lol. Lamar has Andrews, at least. But yeah, as a general rule, I’d agree. 14 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said: Thus the inverse would be a bad OL means the QB is going to be more likely to take off to pickup yards. Which is going to increase the QB volume of rushing yards… which has been the argument for Fields in comparison to Lamar vs a comparison of actual skill set, athleticism, and tools as runners of the football. I’d be interested to see scrambles vs designed runs and the efficiency numbers/stats regarding both. Not sure anyone tracks that. 14 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said: In terms of the nuance, from the perspective of an OL entirely imploding I agree, but if it’s just a standard below average to bad OL, I think an athletic QB if facing an unprepared rush, they can let the DL get upfield and then sneak behind them for huge gains. So while I think the quality of second level blocks matter in all instances, the quality of the OL blocks matter only in as far as the entirety of the interior doesn’t collapse and that they just keep the DL from crowding the LOS to make an early tackle on the scrambler. But I’d be interested in seeing stats that might give an affirmation in either direction. Shrug. I’m of the belief that having a good OL>having a bad OL, across the board, even with QB scrambling opportunities/production. Thing is even if we had the attempts and the numbers, is Fields running because no one’s open? Is he running because he sees the defense is in man and he has open field? Or is he running because his first read wasn’t open and decided to jet? So much context on any given play, it’s tough to judge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted November 19, 2022 Share Posted November 19, 2022 1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said: Generally, yeah, I’d say that’s a safe assumption. Not 100% sure how big of a factor it is only because both teams’ WRs, in this scenario, are…pretty underwhelming at best lol. Lamar has Andrews, at least. But yeah, as a general rule, I’d agree. I’d be interested to see scrambles vs designed runs and the efficiency numbers/stats regarding both. Not sure anyone tracks that. Shrug. I’m of the belief that having a good OL>having a bad OL, across the board, even with QB scrambling opportunities/production. Thing is even if we had the attempts and the numbers, is Fields running because no one’s open? Is he running because he sees the defense is in man and he has open field? Or is he running because his first read wasn’t open and decided to jet? So much context on any given play, it’s tough to judge. It’s almost from what I’ve seen to be some Mike Vick type of he’s made up his mind that if it’s man coverage he’s taking off type of stuff with Fields. But to your point it’s difficult to judge if that’s the case for numerous reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted November 19, 2022 Share Posted November 19, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said: It’s almost from what I’ve seen to be some Mike Vick type of he’s made up his mind that if it’s man coverage he’s taking off type of stuff with Fields. But to your point it’s difficult to judge if that’s the case for numerous reasons. Hence why comparing rushing production from QBs is sort of shotty, even shottier than just saying “X is better than Y because X has more yards”. Running as a QB can be the product of crappy receivers, crappy line, what the defense is giving you, jitters, pressure, down & distance, coaching, too many things. Maybe it’s even lazier, but eye testing the two, Lamar has shown to be the more special runner thus far IMO. Two of the best rushing QBs were partly so great because they are/were so hard to actually sack, even when you did get to them. Cam was really quick in the pocket, especially for his size, and Lamar is almost Vick like in terms of agility. They make you miss and then take off for big gains. Fields has great speed but he hasn’t gotten the feel for scrambling yet IMO. Edited November 19, 2022 by Yin-Yang 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nzd07 Posted January 1, 2023 Share Posted January 1, 2023 Looks like we over-reacted to a couple of good games. Fields is horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammymvpknight Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 Fields is a great runner…but I’m not completely sure he even qualifies as a QB right now. He’s closer to Taysom Hill than an actual QB. And I say that as a big Taysom Hill fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 48 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said: Fields is a great runner…but I’m not completely sure he even qualifies as a QB right now. He’s closer to Taysom Hill than an actual QB. And I say that as a big Taysom Hill fan. Justin Fields = Rookie Lamar maybe?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 29 minutes ago, Soggust said: Justin Fields = Rookie Lamar maybe?? I've been saying it forever, he's a much worse passing rookie Lamar. Just as a great rushing, but he is beyond terrible as a passer. Even rookie Lamar was passable throwing the football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: I've been saying it forever, he's a much worse passing rookie Lamar. Just as a great rushing, but he is beyond terrible as a passer. Even rookie Lamar was passable throwing the football. Yeah, I'm only making the comp because comparing the 7 games Lamar (I modded the table data to just be the 7 games) started as a rookie and 2022 Fields, it felt like it was appropriate Passing Rushing Rk Player Year Cmp Att Yds TD Int Sk Yds Att Yds TD 1 Justin Fields 2022 13.2 21.2 154.8 1.1 0.7 3.4 22.4 10.7 72.2 0.6 2 Lamar Jackson 2018 13.1 22.6 159.1 0.7 0.4 2.1 9.0 17.0 79.4 0.6 also - fields 88.3 rtg / lamar 82.6 I think you have a fair argument Lamar was better, but I just think it's weird because I remember people were calling Lamar a bust because of his rookie season. Yet, Fields this season doesn't seem to have the same "bust" label to other people, despite having similar/worse stats than Lamar and being a year later into his career. Edited January 2, 2023 by Soggust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 43 minutes ago, Soggust said: Yeah, I'm only making the comp because comparing the 7 games Lamar (I modded the table data to just be the 7 games) started as a rookie and 2022 Fields, it felt like it was appropriate Passing Rushing Rk Player Year Cmp Att Yds TD Int Sk Yds Att Yds TD 1 Justin Fields 2022 13.2 21.2 154.8 1.1 0.7 3.4 22.4 10.7 72.2 0.6 2 Lamar Jackson 2018 13.1 22.6 159.1 0.7 0.4 2.1 9.0 17.0 79.4 0.6 also - fields 88.3 rtg / lamar 82.6 I think you have a fair argument Lamar was better, but I just think it's weird because I remember people were calling Lamar a bust because of his rookie season. Yet, Fields this season doesn't seem to have the same "bust" label to other people, despite having similar/worse stats than Lamar and being a year later into his career. I think it's because he's still showing "improvement" into year 2. People called Lamar a bust because they saw him lose a playoff game and thought the league figured him out. Then he went on to win unanimous MVP but lost another playoff game so they said he was a RB. And so the cycle has continued ever since. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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