HoF Semifinalists Announced

[LaserFocus]

10 hours ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

Respect to Hines Ward... but why is he a semifinalist over Jimmy Smith?

Let me count the ways:

Ward is the all-time leading receiver of a prestigious franchise, while Smith played for a franchise which has had little impact.

Ward has a great postseason history, including SB XL MVP, while Jacksonville has never reached a SB

Ward changed the NFL with his blocking excellence, no one ever suggested he invented WR blocking, but it's a reality

Ward didn't have a litany of off field problems, both during and after the career. The troubled Jimmy Smith surprisingly retired right before taking a drug test.   

Ward had the disadvantage of playing in a colder climate, and mediocre QB play for the early part of the career.

 

Of course, in this fantasy football era, Ward isn't a popular choice for the HOF. He was just a blue collar receiver, and a key part of a two time world champion. It's going to happen, just like Jerome Bettis before him, and Troy P. later.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

4 hours ago, DudeWhat??? said:

Dude...What??? uhmm Smith is only 200 yards ahead of ward..Smith is 200 yards behind ward in receptions since ward has 1000....plus ward is way ahead in TD receptions...ward is 16th all time....smith is like in the freaking 50s....it's not even close really ...especially when you add the playoff and championship achievements.....

Well...Hines Ward was a bit of a compiler towards the end of his career. Smith didn't play as many seasons as Ward did. But he did average 70 yards per game while Ward averaged 55. Ward played 14 seasons compared to Smith's 12, but only has 200 more yards. Really, I should say Smith's 11 seasons, because he didn't catch a ball his first season as a Cowboy. Also, Ward's 12.1 YPC is less than Smith's 14.3. Ward was better at getting into the endzone I'll say that. Smith, like Andre Johnson, just never had those double digit TD seasons. 

[LaserFocus]

3 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

Well...Hines Ward was a bit of a compiler towards the end of his career. Smith didn't play as many seasons as Ward did. But he did average 70 yards per game while Ward averaged 55. Ward played 14 seasons compared to Smith's 12, but only has 200 more yards. Really, I should say Smith's 11 seasons, because he didn't catch a ball his first season as a Cowboy. Also, Ward's 12.1 YPC is less than Smith's 14.3. Ward was better at getting into the endzone I'll say that. Smith, like Andre Johnson, just never had those double digit TD seasons. 

WR evaluation isn't all about yardage, Ward was missing a ligament in his knee, and just didn't have explosive speed. Ward only faded in his last two seasons, so I don't understand the compiler comment. Even Jerry Rice faded towards the end, it happens to virtually everyone.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

3 minutes ago, LaserFocus said:

WR evaluation isn't all about yardage, Ward was missing a ligament in his knee, and just didn't have explosive speed. Ward only faded in his last two seasons, so I don't understand the compiler comment. Even Jerry Rice faded towards the end, it happens to virtually everyone.

Jimmy Smith didn't fade. 

Ward not having a certain attribute shouldn't mean anything. Whether it's from an injury or not. Really, that goes for any player. 

I agree that WR evaluation shouldn't all be about yardage or touchdowns. But for the voters it largely will be. 

[LaserFocus]

2 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

Jimmy Smith didn't fade. 

Ward not having a certain attribute shouldn't mean anything. Whether it's from an injury or not. Really, that goes for any player. 

I agree that WR evaluation shouldn't all be about yardage or touchdowns. But for the voters it largely will be. 

Ward has a very impressive career TD mark when compared to current HOF receivers. And yes, excelling in the NFL without a knee ligament is rare, and partly explains the lack of a high yardage per catch number. The fact Jimmy Smith still had another good year left in him makes the situation even worse. His sudden retirement looks really bad, and Smith was busted for drugs later.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

6 minutes ago, LaserFocus said:

Ward has a very impressive career TD mark when compared to current HOF receivers. And yes, excelling in the NFL without a knee ligament is rare, and partly explains the lack of a high yardage per catch number. The fact Jimmy Smith still had another good year left in him makes the situation even worse. His sudden retirement looks really bad, and Smith was busted for drugs later.

Smith was busted for cocaine. That didn't give him a boost at age 36.  Also, why is his "sudden retirement" at age 36 bad? Ward retired at age 35. And Smith didn't get in trouble for drugs until four years later. 

I mean, Lawrence Taylor was on coke too. He even abused drugs after he retired. Had nothing to do with what he could do on the field. Same with Smith. 

As for Ward's knee, I don't know what your point is. That he should get sympathy votes? That would be like me saying Frank Gore should be a lock for the HOF because he had his two knees rebuilt in college, and "just imagine/what if he had both knees at full power". 

[LaserFocus]

5 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

Smith was busted for cocaine. That didn't give him a boost at age 36.  Also, why is his "sudden retirement" at age 36 bad? Ward retired at age 35. And Smith didn't get in trouble for drugs until four years later. 

I mean, Lawrence Taylor was on coke too. He even abused drugs after he retired. Had nothing to do with what he could do on the field. Same with Smith. 

As for Ward's knee, I don't know what your point is. That he should get sympathy votes? That would be like me saying Frank Gore should be a lock for the HOF because he had his two knees rebuilt in college, and "just imagine/what if he had both knees at full power". 

Jimmy Smith wasn't remotely on LT's level as a player, and leaving the game in disgrace isn't want you want in a HOF player. You don't retire the day before a drug test!

The point about Ward's knee is the fact it's not the HOF of yardage or yards per catch. A player minus the speed of others isn't going to have the chunks of yardage which boost that statistic.

[MacReady]

I'd love to see Leroy Butler get in eventually.  He's one of less than 10 players in NFL history to finish his career with 20 sacks and 30 interceptions.  38 career interceptions, 20.5 sacks, 13 forced fumbles and 2 touchdowns (including inventing the Lambeau Leap).  John Lynch (26 interceptions, 13 sacks, 0 touchdowns, 10 forced fumbles) will probably get in before him, and that's a damn shame.  He likely has no shot since it just so happens that two of the other 30/20 club members are eligible this year in Barber and Dawkins. 

[August4th]

wonder how long ray lewis speech will be...O/U 3 hrs

[Adrenaline_Flux]

1 hour ago, LaserFocus said:

Let me count the ways:

Ward is the all-time leading receiver of a prestigious franchise, while Smith played for a franchise which has had little impact.

Ward has a great postseason history, including SB XL MVP, while Jacksonville has never reached a SB

Ward changed the NFL with his blocking excellence, no one ever suggested he invented WR blocking, but it's a reality

Ward didn't have a litany of off field problems, both during and after the career. The troubled Jimmy Smith surprisingly retired right before taking a drug test.   

Ward had the disadvantage of playing in a colder climate, and mediocre QB play for the early part of the career.

 

Of course, in this fantasy football era, Ward isn't a popular choice for the HOF. He was just a blue collar receiver, and a key part of a two time world champion. It's going to happen, just like Jerome Bettis before him, and Troy P. later.

Wow, this is an incredibly condescending reply.

What I basically got from this is that it is because Steelers > Jaguars.

The legitimate points you made though were that he was a Super Bowl MVP and a tremendous blocker.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

1 hour ago, LaserFocus said:

Jimmy Smith wasn't remotely on LT's level as a player, and leaving the game in disgrace isn't want you want in a HOF player. You don't retire the day before a drug test!

The point about Ward's knee is the fact it's not the HOF of yardage or yards per catch. A player minus the speed of others isn't going to have the chunks of yardage which boost that statistic.

Lawrence being a better player is irrelevant. Fact of the matter is both players used cocaine. But that had nothing to do with their production on the field, and it certainly doesn't give Lawrence a pass just because he was maybe the best linebacker ever. I'd say the same with Irvin just because he played on multiple Super Bowl teams. So...I don't see what the point in bringing it up is. Unless it just doesn't make a good narrative. Which again, should be irrelevant. Jimmy doing coke doesn't make Ward a better player than he was either. 

"Leaving the game in disgrace isn't what you want in a HOF player" I've never heard this before. And I'm not even sure what this rule entails. Drugs? Playing like crap at end? What is this even supposed to mean? Seems arbitrary. Ray Lewis was connected to a double murder. Does that not count because it happened in the prime of his career and not the end of it? 

As for Wards knee (I can't believe we're still talking about this), it sounds like an excuse. I mean, Eddie George had a foot problem after the 2000 season and never recovered fully. Should he get a pass for his eligibility? Any player can make a claim as to why they didn't get the job done or their career resume isn't as good as they'd want it to be. Citing an injury isn't a good one to me. Everyone has injuries. The NFL is a results based business. At least the HOF seems to think in those terms. Either you have the individual statistics and accomplishments or you don't. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said:

I'd love to see Leroy Butler get in eventually.  He's one of less than 10 players in NFL history to finish his career with 20 sacks and 30 interceptions.  38 career interceptions, 20.5 sacks, 13 forced fumbles and 2 touchdowns (including inventing the Lambeau Leap).  John Lynch (26 interceptions, 13 sacks, 0 touchdowns, 10 forced fumbles) will probably get in before him, and that's a damn shame.  He likely has no shot since it just so happens that two of the other 30/20 club members are eligible this year in Barber and Dawkins. 

Safeties in general have a really hard time getting into the HOF. Dennis Smith and Steve Atwater aren't in. I think Reed and Polamalu get in obviously. Then Lynch. So there may be a boom in the coming years. I think you put Dawkins in the group, but it's going to be a hard battle just with the peers of his era. 

[LaserFocus]

25 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

Wow, this is an incredibly condescending reply.

What I basically got from this is that it is because Steelers > Jaguars.

The legitimate points you made though were that he was a Super Bowl MVP and a tremendous blocker.

Check the totality of Ward's resume, and being a key member of a two time SB champ is a valuable asset in this discussion. Winning cannot be undervalued in this discussion.

 

12 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

Lawrence being a better player is irrelevant. Fact of the matter is both players used cocaine. But that had nothing to do with their production on the field, and it certainly doesn't give Lawrence a pass just because he was maybe the best linebacker ever. So...I don't see what the point in bringing it up is. Unless it just doesn't make a good narrative. Which again, should be irrelevant. Jimmy doing coke doesn't make Ward a better player than he was either. 

"Leaving the game in disgrace isn't what you want in a HOF player" I've never heard this before. And I'm not even sure what this rule entails. Drugs? Playing like crap at end? What is this even supposed to mean? Seems arbitrary. Ray Lewis was connected to a double murder. Does that not count because it happened in the prime of his career and not the end of it? 

As for Wards knee (I can't believe we're still talking about this), it sounds like an excuse. I mean, Eddie George had a foot problem after the 2000 season and never recovered fully. Should he get a pass for his eligibility? Any player can make a claim as to why they didn't get the job done or their career resume isn't as good as they'd want it to be. Citing an injury isn't a good one to me. Everyone has injuries. The NFL is a results based business. At least the HOF seems to think in those terms. Either you have the individual statistics and accomplishments or you don't. 

 

Hold up. Are you the same dude me and Forge were talking to about Ward about a month ago? Because the points you're making have a familiar stench to it. 

The HOF cannot only be about what happens on the field, Ward is a stronger candidate. And Lewis continued his career without a major incident. Eddie George was already near the end of his career, so I don't understand your point.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

26 minutes ago, LaserFocus said:

Check the totality of Ward's resume, and being a key member of a two time SB champ is a valuable asset in this discussion. Winning cannot be undervalued in this discussion.

 

The HOF cannot only be about what happens on the field, Ward is a stronger candidate. And Lewis continued his career without a major incident. Eddie George was already near the end of his career, so I don't understand your point.

George was 27 when he had that injury. How is that towards the end of his career? Frank Gore had his knees rebuilt in college before his NFL career began. 

Lewis continued his career without a major incident. Okay. Double murder connection is still a double murder connection regardless where in his career it happened. Something he apparently tried to cover up. And that's a bigger red flag to me compared to multiple drug violations. If the HOF can't only be about what happens on the field (which contradicts what  executive director of the HOF Joe Horrigan has stated to what the proper conduct for the voters is supposed to be), then that is a huge strike towards Lewis, and he shouldn't sniff the HOF. Obviously he'll get in though because of the arbitrary voting process in addition to how good of a player he was which has a habit of making people forget what issues you get wrapped up in. 

[Danger]

Randy Moss
Terrell Owens
Ray Lewis
Steve Hutchinson
Brian Dawkins
Allen Faneca