StLunatic88 Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, holt_bruce81 said: I wouldn't really complicate things. Diaz is a bench player until proven otherwise. He's been playing 2B and 3B in the minors to show his versatility. And I think one of Pham or Piscotty are gone in the offseason. I would love to move Grichuk but I just think the front office likes him to much, I still think they see a 30+ home run guy. And Carson Kelly isn't going to be really competing for anything as long as Yadi is here. Wouldn't be shocked to see him traded for a MOTOB. Can the Cardinals afford to move on from Carpenter or Gyorko? The one bat I could see them making a run at in free agency is Eric Hosmer, and I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. He would definitely come in and inject some life in this team, but I feel he's a tad overrated and would cost a boat load. Think thats the only way we move on from Carp. Yadi will be the factor at Firstbase soon that will push Carpenter out, not likely a guy that we would have to pay more money to in Hosmer. (did you see that embarrassing triple play the other night? Not really Championship level fitness right there) I dont see how anyone can ignore Kelly at this point. He is the best Catching prospect in baseball, we have an aging and declining catcher . . . 2+2=4 why complicate this? What are wither Carpenter or Gyorko providing that is so viatal that we couldnt move on from them? Both are sub par defensively, both dont have a true position, and both have been streaky this year. Im not against having them, but when they are logjams in the roster preventing us from getting better, Im fine with moving on. You writing off Diaz this quickly is alittle much, because if that is the case, then I dont see how you are comfortable with counting on DeJong moving forward. This roster puzzle has too many similar bland pieces, without much to get that excited about Edited August 17, 2017 by StLunatic88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holt_bruce81 Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 38 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: Yadi will be the factor at Firstbase soon that will push Carpenter out, not likely a guy that we would have to pay more money to in Hosmer. (did you see that embarrassing triple play the other night? Not really Championship level fitness right there) I dont see how anyone can ignore Kelly at this point. He is the best Catching prospect in baseball, we have an aging and declining catcher . . . 2+2=4 why complicate this? What are wither Carpenter or Gyorko providing that is so viatal that we couldnt move on from them? Both are sub par defensively, both dont have a true position, and both have been streaky this year. Im not against having them, but when they are logjams in the roster preventing us from getting better, Im fine with moving on. You writing off Diaz this quickly is alittle much, because if that is the case, then I dont see how you are comfortable with counting on DeJong moving forward. This roster puzzle has too many similar bland pieces, without much to get that excited about How do we even know that Yadi is going to see time at 1st base? Seriously, has the front office ever hinted at that? And I wouldn't really call the triple play "embarrassing" Just unfortunate that one of the slowest runners in the game hit it right to the 3rd baseman, not sure how you blame his fitness on that. Tell me how Gyorko has been "sub par" defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 1 minute ago, holt_bruce81 said: How do we even know that Yadi is going to see time at 1st base? Seriously, has the front office ever hinted at that? And I wouldn't really call the triple play "embarrassing" Just unfortunate that one of the slowest runners in the game hit it right to the 3rd baseman, not sure how you blame his fitness on that. Tell me how Gyorko has been "sub par" defensively. It has been talked about for a long time that as Yadi's career continues he will need to take less time behind the plate, and the obvious move is to First. And no matter how often he wants to teeny-bopper sub-post on IG, he does look like he is slowing down. That tripple play was bad. it took forever to turn it. There was a back-track to tag 3rd and it was a soft turn at second, and he was still out by more than a step at 1st. There are average runners who are thrown out by less on a double play. You cant pump your chest out about your fitness, when it was called out in direct response to how you were running the bases, and then do that a few weeks later. Sure Gyorko isnt bad at 3rd, but he isnt good either. So maybe Sub Par was too much for him. But in the end, they are both Second Basemen playing out of position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 3 hours ago, StLunatic88 said: I know we are all of the sudden in the thick of it, but I continue to watch the Minor League reports, and see what is happening on the big league team and keep wondering what happens with all these average to above average guys we have. Who are the starters? Is anyone moved out? Do we add another bat in Free Agency? My question is, who would you guys move on from for the 2018 season? Matt Carpenter Kolten Wong Aledmys Diaz Stephen Piscotty Dexter Fowler Tommy Pham Jedd Gyorko Carson Kelly Paul DeJong Randall Grichuck Add in Yadi, and that 11 guys for 8 spots. And if we are able to add a bat in the offseason, that means we have to "move on" (i.e. Trade, send to the minors, come off the bench) from 4 of these guys. For my money, I would move on from Carpenter and Gyorko without even thinking twice. But i would also get what we can for Grichuck and move on (Adams situation) and Honestly I think if Mo were being truthful, he would take back that Fowler contract if he could. I think at this point, most of the roster is pretty much set. We really don't have a lot of in Memphis that's pushing the FO to make any drastic moves. Barring a trade, Matt Carpenter is starting at 1B, Molina is at catcher, and Fowler is in CF (or at the very least in the OF) based on their contracts. Given how well they've played this year, you have to imagine that Kolten Wong gets the 2B gig next year, Paul DeJong is the starting SS, and Tommy Pham is in the OF somewhere. And given how Jedd Gyorko played to start the year, he's probably done enough to earn a starting spot, likely 3B. That really only leaves RF (or LF) as an opening. If Stephen Piscotty can recover his stroke, he's the favorite but given how many chances they want to give Randal Grichuk I don't think you can count him out. I think they missed the boat on selling high on Jedd Gyorko tbh. He's cooled off badly post-All Star break. He posted a 128 wRC+ prior to the All Star Break, and since then he's posted 43 wRC+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 2 hours ago, StLunatic88 said: What are wither Carpenter or Gyorko providing that is so viatal that we couldnt move on from them? Both are sub par defensively, both dont have a true position, and both have been streaky this year. Im not against having them, but when they are logjams in the roster preventing us from getting better, Im fine with moving on. Sorry, Jedd Gyorko has been anything but sub-par (or even average) defensively this year. He might not be Nolen Arenado, but he's got the 2nd highest DRS and 10th highest UZR/150. He's a top 10 defensive 3B based on his numbers this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 1 hour ago, holt_bruce81 said: How do we even know that Yadi is going to see time at 1st base? Seriously, has the front office ever hinted at that? And I wouldn't really call the triple play "embarrassing" Just unfortunate that one of the slowest runners in the game hit it right to the 3rd baseman, not sure how you blame his fitness on that. Where do you move Yadier Molina if you want to get Carson Kelly's bat into the lineup? How about if you don't want to move Molina, but want to get Kelly into the lineup? Something has to give. And that's probably going to be first base. And that means you're moving Matt Carpenter, who outside of 1B probably could only be moved into LF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 58 minutes ago, CWood21 said: Sorry, Jedd Gyorko has been anything but sub-par (or even average) defensively this year. He might not be Nolen Arenado, but he's got the 2nd highest DRS and 10th highest UZR/150. He's a top 10 defensive 3B based on his numbers this year. I know what some of the defense metrics say, but when you watch him he doesn't look much better than what Carp gave us a few years ago. They make the plays they are supposed to, but never feel like a weapon at the corner. He's just not what I would want at 3B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 1 hour ago, CWood21 said: I think they missed the boat on selling high on Jedd Gyorko tbh. He's cooled off badly post-All Star break. He posted a 128 wRC+ prior to the All Star Break, and since then he's posted 43 wRC+. You are probably right. We will just have Diaz, Kelly and Grichuck as the Bench guys or getting reps down in Memphis till someone gets hurt or nosedives like this year. All while not adding any Bat to this lineup. That is the most likely route we take. Unfortunately, we have seen that team. We have watched it all year. And that's not a very fun, or really a very good team. I guess if we are content with trying to scrap for the Wild Card, the Ok. But the Cubs and Brewers aren't going to stand still for next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 7 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: I know what some of the defense metrics say, but when you watch him he doesn't look much better than what Carp gave us a few years ago. They make the plays they are supposed to, but never feel like a weapon at the corner. He's just not what I would want at 3B He's not your traditional 3B, which I understand where you're getting at. But I'm not sure whose going to be available that you're sure he's a clear upgrade defensively. Maybe you call up the Rangers and see what they'd want for Adrian Beltre? They're going in a transitional year, and could be willing to move him. He's not quite what he was defensively. Any idea what the Rangers would want for him @DalCowboyzRule? I know Evan Longoria has been a rumored target for the Cardinals, but given that he still has 5 years, $86M I'm not sure the Rays are really motivated to him. And if the Cardinals did acquire another 3B, what do they do with Jedd Gyorko? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 6 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: I guess if we are content with trying to scrap for the Wild Card, the Ok. But the Cubs and Brewers aren't going to stand still for next year. Barring something drastic happening, our Opening Day roster is pretty much set. C - Yadier Molina 1B - Matt Carpenter 2B - Kolten Wong SS - Paul DeJong 3B - Jedd Gyorko LF - Tommy Pham CF - Dexter Fowler RF - ??? SP - Carlos Martinez SP - Mike Leake SP - Adam Wainwright SP - Michael Wacha SP - ??? CL - Trevor Rosenthal RF seems like Stephen Piscotty's to lose assuming he recovers his swing. Although, I'd imagine the Cardinals will continue to give Randal Grichuk an infinite number of chances to win that position. Outside chance Harrison Bader or Tyler O'Neill win that starting spot. SP5 seems like Alex Reyes or Luke Weaver, or at the very least a combination of the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, CWood21 said: Barring something drastic happening, our Opening Day roster is pretty much set Oh, I am not disagreeing with you. But what I am saying is "something drastic" needs to happen. This roster needs an overhaul, and this offseason is the time to do it before we are stuck with this same team for the next 3 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: Oh, I am not disagreeing with you. But what I am saying is "something drastic" needs to happen. This roster needs an overhaul, and this offseason is the time to do it before we are stuck with this same team for the next 3 years I don't think anyone would disagree, but where is that coming from? Alex Reyes is about as close to off-limits as it gets, at best we'd get pennies on the dollar for him. And the only real notable trade piece we have is Carson Kelly. Are you willing to trade a potential elite defensive C with a strong bat that you can plug in for the next decade? If not, where do you go beyond that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 21 minutes ago, CWood21 said: I don't think anyone would disagree, but where is that coming from? Alex Reyes is about as close to off-limits as it gets, at best we'd get pennies on the dollar for him. And the only real notable trade piece we have is Carson Kelly. Are you willing to trade a potential elite defensive C with a strong bat that you can plug in for the next decade? If not, where do you go beyond that? I'm not saying we ahould be out there getting a superstar, I don't think we can responsibly go get one of those right now. But there are some. Are out there that would change the make up of this lineup. Because right now it's one big amoeba of the same hitter. Then you can use some of these redundant talents to start and restock the farm system. Because while they won't bring top of the system talent, these guys we have still have value Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 28 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: I'm not saying we ahould be out there getting a superstar, I don't think we can responsibly go get one of those right now. But there are some. Are out there that would change the make up of this lineup. Because right now it's one big amoeba of the same hitter. Then you can use some of these redundant talents to start and restock the farm system. Because while they won't bring top of the system talent, these guys we have still have value Then I guess the next question is, who do you propose we target via trade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DalCowboyzRule Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 2 hours ago, CWood21 said: He's not your traditional 3B, which I understand where you're getting at. But I'm not sure whose going to be available that you're sure he's a clear upgrade defensively. Maybe you call up the Rangers and see what they'd want for Adrian Beltre? They're going in a transitional year, and could be willing to move him. He's not quite what he was defensively. Any idea what the Rangers would want for him @DalCowboyzRule? I know Evan Longoria has been a rumored target for the Cardinals, but given that he still has 5 years, $86M I'm not sure the Rays are really motivated to him. And if the Cardinals did acquire another 3B, what do they do with Jedd Gyorko? I don't think there's any way we trade Adrian unless he specifically requests a trade. There's too much respect there and he loves it in Texas. If he did demand a trade, it would probably cost a team one of their 6th-10th best prospects + another lower level one? Idk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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