Top 10 DB Units in the NFL

[Soko]

2 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Sure to some degree but seriously do you even watch college football? 

As if Aidan Hutchinson doing well was a big shocker?  Guess what Will Anderson Jr will do very well as a rookie, there is little doubt in my mind of that one.  Kyle Hamilton is a great safety, yeah considering how great he was in college and really should have been a top 5 pick but people were scared of his injury and his lack of 4.3 speed apparently.  

There are more misses than hits. Always. That’s why assuming guys are going to walk into the locker room and ball out as rookies, is usually more of a fun hope than a realistic expectation.

2 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

They are paid millions from the get go as high 1st rounders for a reason.  Sure they do not always workout but sorry I take them totally in regard to these lists and many of them will make major impacts as a rookie as they always do.  What rookie class had little to no impact at all?  Pretty sure every rookie class has impact rookies that matter in terms of the teams overall success.  Projection is not that difficult for me to envision, I guess for some others it is.  

More rookies make no impact at all in their rookie years than they do make Pro Bowls. 

2 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

If it never happen, then the Chiefs would not have late round draft picks making huge plays in the playoffs because they are not ready for the Pro game, well guess what they were ready and they mattered in the game greatly. 

I didn’t say it never happens. I said that putting rookies who’ve proven nothing at the NFL level over proven veterans is why these lists end up wonky.

[Ozzy]

7 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I'm not gonna argue about the DL/edge in this thread, I think that is more valid to leave them off the top 10. But since they were a top-3 defense with Roquan, it would be pretty amazing for them to have average secondary AND D-line/edge and play at an elite level. I mean, having one great off-ball LB is not going to propel a team to the top of the league. 

Peters was poor in coverage in his year coming off an ACL, it really doesn't take much to upgrade his position. 

Chuck Clark was traded for a conditional 7th, so I don't really think you can claim he is incredibly valuable. 

My overall point is that Marcus Williams/Kyle Hamilton/Marlon Humphrey are such a great trio that it shouldn't be hard to fill in the rest. Rock Ya-SIn at CB2, Arthur Maulet at nickel are upgrades IMO. 

Losing accomplished vets in Houston, Campbell and JPP is not nearly as easy to replace and sure they matter more than Clark.  As for Peters I feel you underrate his ability as a corner but sure he was not at the top of his game exactly.

 

Maulet might workout at slot possibly, I like him but he was never some world beater on the Steelers.  Armour-Davis I am not a huge fan of and Seymour I am not a fan of either.  Washington at safety is just eh and Stone is also pretty eh.  Worley is just so so, but say that Kelly dude from Stanford is a high end player then maybe they have something.  I over looked him and did not notice he was on the roster and he could be something so that is a good nod for the Ravens.  They need high end talent and he might have it and could develop into a starter on the outside but is pretty raw.   

Ya-Sin I think is a bit overrated but sure he is ok, I would not call him a high level boundary corner though.  

 

Maybe if Maulet is some great slot for them and Kelly is a solid backup and or future starter they could be something.  But the depth is still a question to me considering who is the guys back there.  Marcus Williams some view as some great safety, I do not, I feel he is overrated at times but at least is consistent just not sure he is a high level guy.  Lucky for them they have Kyle Hamilton who is a freak show that is super versatile.

 

Thus having two elite players in Humphrey and Hamilton does not make the entire unit great until some other guys show up and show out.  

[Ozzy]

3 minutes ago, Soko said:

There are more misses than hits. Always. That’s why assuming guys are going to walk into the locker room and ball out as rookies, is usually more of a fun hope than a realistic expectation.

More rookies make no impact at all in their rookie years than they do make Pro Bowls. 

I didn’t say it never happens. I said that putting rookies who’ve proven nothing at the NFL level over proven veterans is why these lists end up wonky.

Maybe the lists are wonky but that is only because some that view might have no clue who the rookies are, what they are like and have never really seen them play at all.  Then sure it would be like, who is this stupid rookie if you have no idea exactly who they are outside of a few quick clips.

 

Sure rookies fail and do not perform, so do veteran players.

 

Either way it is a projection and if one cannot project things down the line then sure it seems stupid.   I am sure I am wrong multiple times, so what at least it is my attempt this early in the game when it is actually difficult to project instead of waiting for the end of the season and basing it off of that.  How fun would that be?  Fact is not very fun or interesting after the fact.    

[AngusMcFife]

2 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Thus having two elite players in Humphrey and Hamilton does not make the entire unit great until some other guys show up and show out.  

Yes but having 2 (borderline 3) elite players should at least put them above Jacksonville who has 0 elite players and 30th in the league in passing defense (by DVOA). 

[Ozzy]

17 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yes but having 2 (borderline 3) elite players should at least put them above Jacksonville who has 0 elite players and 30th in the league in passing defense (by DVOA). 

Do I overrate Jacksonville, sure maybe a bit as a honorable mention.  Ravens have better starters than them no question, but the Ravens do not have better starter/depth combination than the Bills, Patriots, Jets, Seahawks or Broncos etc.

 

I think Campbell has a lot of upside and last year was only his second full year starting and Cisco has a ton of potential who had his first full year starting last year.  Not to mention Antonio Johnson who I would say is better than Kelly from Stanford on the Ravens and at times last year Johnson was projected as a 1st round pick and has great slot tackling ability and could be a stud safety as well.  And Jaguars need a slot and he could be that guy, and I like Wingard as well etc, but yes a lot is projection on my part.

 

Should the Ravens be at least honorable mention, sure.  

[Ozzy]

11 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yes but having 2 (borderline 3) elite players should at least put them above Jacksonville who has 0 elite players and 30th in the league in passing defense (by DVOA). 

Also the Jaguars were 12th in points allowed per game which is very solid, 12th in rushing yards allowed per game, 24th in total yards allowed per game and 28th in passing yards allowed per game sure not great.   However usually teams that can defend the run give up far more passing yards because that is what teams do on them, and I do not pretend the DBs have nothing to do with run defense because they do, Jenkins was the 2nd leading tackler on the team and Cisco was the 4th leading tackler.  They also had the leading tackler in the NFL in Foyesade Oluokun, a young front that will be better this season and again Antonio Johnson who could play multiple positions and help the D improve in the secondary a lot.  Still that safety group of three is pretty solid and Cisco/Jenkins both had great years.  If they can find another backup edge rusher and possibly Erick Hallett develops a bit they will be a very solid defensive group.    

 

 

I did add the Ravens to the honorable mention, sorry about forgetting Kelly and again to me he is going to be huge if he can develop into a starting outside corner.  He has high upside and they need it at that position, we will see if Maulet can do things at slot or not, that or Williams and we will see if they can get another safety to show out.  

Edited August 15, 2023 by Ozzy

[Superduperman]

A current update on the Lions secondary

Sutton will start at outside CB of course, the other CB will be Jerry Jacobs until Moseley is ready to come back, which now will be into the season.

Brian Branch has been so good in camp that he's now expected to be the starting nickel, pushing CJGJ to a starting safety slot next to Kerby Joseph.

Undrafted Starling Thomas will be the third outside CB, and Tracy Walker will be the third safety. Chase Lucas will be a backup CB and Ifeatu Melifonwu will be a backup safety. Saivion Smith has a shot to be on the roster until Moseley returns.

 

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, Superduperman said:

A current update on the Lions secondary

Sutton will start at outside CB of course, the other CB will be Jerry Jacobs until Moseley is ready to come back, which now will be into the season.

Brian Branch has been so good in camp that he's now expected to be the starting nickel, pushing CJGJ to a starting safety slot next to Kerby Joseph.

Undrafted Starling Thomas will be the third outside CB, and Tracy Walker will be the third safety. Chase Lucas will be a backup CB and Ifeatu Melifonwu will be a backup safety. Saivion Smith has a shot to be on the roster until Moseley returns.

 

Tracy Walker is not going to start?  Wasn't he pretty damn good at safety when healthy?  That is a surprise, starting Gardner-Johnson I like but if they think Brian Branch is a great slot player not sure about that one.  Unless they play him as more of a box safety, he struggled in slot coverage in college but is a great tackler in the open field and blows up WR screens well.  Not sure he has the foot speed to play slot cornerback.  

Moseley I assume is the slot when he is healthy.

 

Starling Thomas I do not know much about.  What has Steven Gilmore looked like?  The brother of Stephon.  

 

Either way the versatility they have is nuts and the depth is nuts, they have multiple guys who could be fine safeties or slot corners. Only issue is elite outside corner play, but they have capable guys there as well.  If say Jacobs is the slot with Moseley out I think Gardner-Johnson is their 2nd best CB and might be even better than Sutton.  

[Ozzy]

On 8/14/2023 at 1:20 PM, scar988 said:

You're not correct on this depth chart order. This is what it is right now:

CB A.J. Terrell / Mike Hughes

SS Richie Grant / Demarcco Hellams

FS Jessie Bates / Jaylinn Hawkins

CB Jeff Okudah / Tre Flowers

CB Dee Alford / Clark Phillips

I think they could easily end up as a top 10 unit this year in the secondary.

They could move up to the top 10 no question.  Hellams I am not a huge fan of but maybe he is better than Abernathy.  Tre Flowers is washed up as a player but maybe they can get something out of him.  I still say Mike Hughes is best as a slot corner but I have not seen much of Dee Alford.

 

Okudah always gets hurt so not sure one can lock him in and is hurt currently.  Maybe Flowers or Hughes can take that spot.  Bates is a super star safety and that was a great pickup and Terrell is already a high end safety.  Big key long term is Phillips, that dude can play and will surprise a lot of him, he was a big time playmaker on Utah, had a great season last year and I was surprised he dropped so far in the draft, he was a great pickup and is a smooth coverage corner.  

[Superduperman]

Quote

Moseley I assume is the slot when he is healthy.

Sorry but you're assuming wrong. 

 

Quote

What has Steven Gilmore looked like?  The brother of Stephon.  

He won't make the team

 

Quote

Either way the versatility they have is nuts and the depth is nuts, they have multiple guys who could be fine safeties or slot corners. Only issue is elite outside corner play, but they have capable guys there as well.  If say Jacobs is the slot with Moseley out I think Gardner-Johnson is their 2nd best CB and might be even better than Sutton.  

They do have versatility and if injuries occur, then they can move guys around, but the way I've described it is how they're practicing now.

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, Superduperman said:

Sorry but you're assuming wrong. 

 

He won't make the team

 

They do have versatility and if injuries occur, then they can move guys around, but the way I've described it is how they're practicing now.

Moseley's entire time on the 49ers, he was best when in the slot and most effective when in the slot arguably.  Not playing him in the slot is a mistake.  

 

And I did not say would Steven Gilmore make the team.  Of course he will not make the team, I asked how he looked, I followed him on Marshall, if you have no thoughts on his actual play on the field say that.  

 

If Tracey Walker, Brian Branch or Jerry Jacobs spend most of their time on the bench they will have some pissed off players because all of them should be playing.  And it is not like the DL not sure one can rotate in and out safeties and CBs but maybe they will to keep guys happy and fresh. Or maybe they need to make a trade because say Walker is back at the top of his game, he will not like sitting on the bench but it is also not like they should bench Gardner-Johnson either.  

[Superduperman]

OK, to be more clear, Steven Gilmore has done nothing worth noting by anyone following the team either in practice or in their preseason game.

[Ozzy]

2 minutes ago, Superduperman said:

OK, to be more clear, Steven Gilmore has done nothing worth noting by anyone following the team either in practice or in their preseason game.

Ok, to be clear I am not asking about what someone else says about him.  Obviously you either form no opinion on him or just repeat what others have said about a player.  I watched him in college, I have a baseline for what he is potentially as a player and I am familiar with him a bit.  Is it because I love him as a player, no, I follow prospects each and every year and pay attention to the ones I think have a shot in the league.  Guess what I thought he had a shot and glad he is getting his shot.  Obviously if he never makes the commentary at the local radio station or youtube/blogger channel I could care less, and clearly you have never paid attention to him either.  That is fine, but same question could be said for Brandon Joseph on the Lions, but I am sure no person commented so you have no comment maybe.  If that is following a team great but at least I have a baseline for a ton of these guys and it is not based on what team I follow and like in the NFL.

[Superduperman]

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Ok, to be clear I am not asking about what someone else says about him.  Obviously you either form no opinion on him or just repeat what others have said about a player.  I watched him in college, I have a baseline for what he is potentially as a player and I am familiar with him a bit.  Is it because I love him as a player, no, I follow prospects each and every year and pay attention to the ones I think have a shot in the league.  Guess what I thought he had a shot and glad he is getting his shot.  Obviously if he never makes the commentary at the local radio station or youtube/blogger channel I could care less, and clearly you have never paid attention to him either.  That is fine, but same question could be said for Brandon Joseph on the Lions, but I am sure no person commented so you have no comment maybe.  If that is following a team great but at least I have a baseline for a ton of these guys and it is not based on what team I follow and like in the NFL.

Jesus Christ dude you are touchy

I haven't been at practice. I was at the preseason game. I haven't seen or heard a single thing about him

[SmittyBacall]

11 hours ago, Ozzy said:

I watched him in college, I have a baseline for what he is potentially as a player and I am familiar with him a bit.  Is it because I love him as a player, no, I follow prospects each and every year and pay attention to the ones I think have a shot in the league.  Guess what I thought he had a shot and glad he is getting his shot. 

I think this is the problem. You're biased based on previous college evaluation and apply your projections to your rankings, but your projections don't (always) jive with reality.