VonKarman Posted August 16, 2023 Share Posted August 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Ozzy said: Stats can be useful at times, but take the Texans, that LG is a 7? Shaq Mason or Kenyon Green? They are the lowest rated positional starter on this list? Not sure I buy that one, nt sure either one of those dudes are that bad, both are pretty solid I would say. And the center Scruggs sure could be bad but my guess is he becomes a very stable starter in the league. And if he does not workout they have two or three other options at center potentially to go with. Also the Ravens, so Linderbaum is a 18? How is that, I consider him a very solid center and he will be even better this year. Does highlight apparent weaknesses in the line but those are already pretty obvious across the board, and depth at those weak spots becomes very important. And I am not going to sit and pretend Cross and Lucas will not be better after their solid rookie years. Where they are as far as I can recall the only rookie tackles that have started pretty much the entire season on the same team, that simply does not happen in the NFL so to me that is a big accomplishment for both. It happened once that I found awhile back with injuries that happened on Arizona but Cross and Lucas those dudes were pretty much starters from the get go and did pretty well I thought. They seem to rate Taylor Decker pretty high, not sure I agree with that, he has never been an All Pro or Pro Bowler, sure he is a decent LT but I would not call him an elite LT. If you read the thread you can see the analysis for each team. Green is the chosen LG for the Texans (I think he uses the depth charts from ourlads). It's just a data point using EPA, and as you say it has his flows, particularly with rookies, who have few data points and typically improve. It also doesn't take into account run blocking, just pass pro in true pass sets. I just remembered seing it the other day and thought it'd be interesting to add it to the conversation, I do not pretend (nor does the author) to say that the ranking is the correct one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgarrett12486 Posted August 16, 2023 Share Posted August 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Ozzy said: Stats can be useful at times, but take the Texans, that LG is a 7? Shaq Mason or Kenyon Green? They are the lowest rated positional starter on this list? Not sure I buy that one, nt sure either one of those dudes are that bad, both are pretty solid I would say. Mason is on his 3rd team in three years, there is a reason for that. His play has fallen off an absolute cliff. Go back and watch last years tape. he was the weakest link, yet he was playing next to arguably the best RT in football. He's a shell of what he was in his early years with pats and highly doubt that turns around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted August 16, 2023 Author Share Posted August 16, 2023 1 minute ago, kgarrett12486 said: Mason is on his 3rd team in three years, there is a reason for that. His play has fallen off an absolute cliff. Go back and watch last years tape. he was the weakest link, yet he was playing next to arguably the best RT in football. He's a shell of what he was in his early years with pats and highly doubt that turns around. For one Tristan Wirfs is not a LT anymore but I agree he is the best RT in football at the time and is an absolute super star player. I had him as the 3rd best player in the 2020 draft and had him drafted ahead of Wills, Becton and Thomas. No way he should have fell behind all of them like he did. Sure maybe Mason's play has declined but there could be a variety of reasons as to why, family life, injuries, motivation, organizational fit etc. I would not totally end his career just yet though. And say he does suck, they have Deiter who could play OG, Morrissey or Patterson who could play there possibly as well. They also have Scott Quessenberry who could play OG and Tyler Beach the rookie but not sure he makes the team, heck maybe DJ Scaife could transition to OG instead of RT but again he probably will not make the roster also. Either way that is where the depth comes in big time and could help a great deal in that regard if a player like Mason is not up to par. 18 minutes ago, VonKarman said: If you read the thread you can see the analysis for each team. Green is the chosen LG for the Texans (I think he uses the depth charts from ourlads). It's just a data point using EPA, and as you say it has his flows, particularly with rookies, who have few data points and typically improve. It also doesn't take into account run blocking, just pass pro in true pass sets. I just remembered seing it the other day and thought it'd be interesting to add it to the conversation, I do not pretend (nor does the author) to say that the ranking is the correct one. OL is difficult and hard to evaluate that is for sure. The angle on the TV for games does not show what actually goes on more often than not, is easy to see on the edges but not on the inside unless a guy is getting totally dominated. And stats are hard to totally take as true because there are variables that are not always shown or known. Interesting though and thanks for sharing it. Also stats are stats so they should have just included run blocking and then averaged the two grades, pass and run blocking together to get a total "grade" if that was the goal. Is an odd projection though and they take into account draft position for rookies as if that matters when it comes to their on the field play. But I guess they are assuming all higher drafted players are better etc which in itself is foolish. And I would assume that is for only current rookies potentially? And the Eagles for example should be way higher but they are just guessing with Jurgens at OG and really have no clue how he will be. But say he is not great they have Opeta, Tom or maybe even Driscoll who can take that spot. Is different because last year they just had Dillard waiting in the wings and he could play LT or RT and I think he filled in at guard at times as well. That is something they do not have this up coming season a talented backup like that. Will be interesting what they do with Roderick Johnson or Fred Johnson, even Brett Toth but with the two Johnson's will see if the best OL coach in the NFL can save their careers, especially Roderick he has been a disappointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted August 17, 2023 Author Share Posted August 17, 2023 Brandon Shell retired from professional football so that will hurt the quality depth on the Bills at OT no question. I feel Richard Gouraige could be the guy that wins the spot, was never a huge fan of David Quessenberry but maybe he takes it as well with his guard versatility. Van Denmark could be an option also so we will see who wins that backup OT job opposite Doyle. Does hurt them and I moved them down a notch because of the loss of Shell who could have played either tackle spot if need be. Will be interesting how Torrence develops and if he can become a player and even if he does not they have so many other options at guard as well. See who establishes themselves as quality starters, already have two in Dawkins and Morse but the rest need to prove it a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizeGuy Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 (edited) On 8/14/2023 at 6:26 PM, Ozzy said: Dion Dawkins is well above an average starter. Since when is being a Pro Bowler just average? What the hell? Mitch Morse has started 109 of 109 games played in his 8 year career. Not sure he is some garbage center but sure they could use some more depth behind him but usually he is not out of the lineup. I would say he is above average at center especially with his consistency as a starter. Spencer Brown has started 24 out of 27 games played at RT and even though it was in a Pro Day setting, has the highest RAS score ever recorded for a OT. The dude has talent and upside and I assume he will be better this year than last year. Cannot imagine he will get worse and his career is just over having played only two years. Connor McGovern has started only 29 of 45 games but did start 15 out of 15 last year for the Cowboys. I do believe he will be an improvement at guard and again if he is not they have replacements who could do well also. McGovern is tough and will improve the power run game as well, is a very underrated signing in my book with a player on his way up. Ryan Bates, first time as a full time starter in the NFL last year. Not sure he was amazing but that would be why they got insurance plans for him in Edwards and Torrence if things do not workout with Bates who still does have ability at the position. David Edwards had 45 starts out of 53 games played with the Rams in four years. He is listed as a backup but is pretty damn nice to have him just sitting around in case something does not workout with a starter. Brandon Shell has started 72 out of 83 games played in his 7 year NFL career, he as well is a backup RT and just in case. Is not amazing but has tons of experience and provides a perfect backup if a tackle goes down, really nice to have in place and something they did not have really last year. O'Cyrus Torrence is a bull of a guard and can really move guys around and could potentially be a fine run blocking for a team in great need of improved run blocking. Huge dude and can be a force, not sure how that is not considered a massive improvement and great pickup in the draft. Tommy Doyle, has not started yet for the team but the guy is super talented and wildly athletic for a man 6-8 320. How one would not see him as super promising down the road I do not know. Dude has skills potentially that is for sure. Nick Broeker, I liked him a ton out of Ole Miss, and he did play tackle at times. Versatile OG who can move dudes and is again a fine run blocker with good solid athletic ability. Yet another guard who could play if they have issues at that position. David Quessenberry, not a huge fan of his but he does have OT/OG versatility but could easily not make the roster potentially with bringing in Edwards and Shell. Was a full time starter for the Titans at tackle in 2021 but only started 3 times last year. Most likely cut but yet again another option potentially. Ike Boettger, is just a backup guard with 5 years of NFL experience, he might end up being cut with the depth they have got at OG. Sure they are not wall to wall Pro Bowlers but the potential is there to be a much improved OL and looks like a team that is far more committed to running the football with some power. Shell retiring and Doyle being out for the season certainly hurts their depth. I will say, Dawkins and Morse are above average, but Brown has been complete trash. Hopefully, it was mostly injury related last year because between him and Saffold, it was painful to watch the Bills O-line try to protect Allen. I'm high on Torrence, though, and McGovern could be an adequate starter. I just wish the Bills were able to do what Cincy and KC have done for their QBs. Cincy gave Burrow the best receiving core in the NFL the past two years and improved their O line dramatically last year. Mahomes lost a few weapons last year, but gain an elite O line, which is stupidly important for a QB. The talks of him not having any weapons are irrelevant when he has Kelce to throw to and an O line that is top-5 in the league. Allen dealt with an *** O line last year, and his playmakers, outside of Diggs, really let him down. I'd have given my left nut just to have Boyd in the slot last year. McKenzie was the polar opposite of what you want in a slot guy. Hands of stone and blah route running. I'm straying off topic, but kudos to the front offices of the Bengals and Chiefs for surrounding their QB with outstanding supporting casts. Its put both teams on a higher tier than Buffalo, though Buffalo is very, very close and can close the gap. Switching their concept on offense to run more 12 personnel with Kincaid and Knox could be the change they need to help close that gap. Edited September 1, 2023 by WizeGuy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted September 1, 2023 Author Share Posted September 1, 2023 3 hours ago, WizeGuy said: Shell retiring and Doyle being out for the season certainly hurts their depth. I will say, Dawkins and Morse are above average, but Brown has been complete trash. Hopefully, it was mostly injury related last year because between him and Saffold, it was painful to watch the Bills O-line try to protect Allen. I'm high on Torrence, though, and McGovern could be an adequate starter. I just wish the Bills were able to do what Cincy and KC have done for their QBs. Cincy gave Burrow the best receiving core in the NFL the past two years and improved their O line dramatically last year. Mahomes lost a few weapons last year, but gain an elite O line, which is stupidly important for a QB. The talks of him not having any weapons are irrelevant when he has Kelce to throw to and an O line that is top-5 in the league. Allen dealt with an *** O line last year, and his playmakers, outside of Diggs, really let him down. I'd have given my left nut just to have Boyd in the slot last year. McKenzie was the polar opposite of what you want in a slot guy. Hands of stone and blah route running. I'm straying off topic, but kudos to the front offices of the Bengals and Chiefs for surrounding their QB with outstanding supporting casts. Its put both teams on a higher tier than Buffalo, though Buffalo is very, very close and can close the gap. Switching their concept on offense to run more 12 personnel with Kincaid and Knox could be the change they need to help close that gap. Yeah, without Doyle that hurts their backup situation and his development no question. That kid could be out of the league he only has what a year left on his rookie deal considering this year is lost to injury. Sucks, I thought he had tons of potential. The loss of Shell hurts and his retirement, because they might need him. So Spencer Brown is awful? That is disappointing, he is still young and I would think he can continue to develop. Is such a fine athlete. They really need Torrence to hit, and bringing in Ifedi helps their depth situation I feel which is nice. But yeah a lot of guys have to step up especially those two guards and Spencer Brown. I agree they do need to run more and play more two TE sets potentially, odd thing is they were 7th in the NFL in rushing yards a game last year. I would have never thought that, maybe it was just in the biggest games they totally sucked at rushing. And really it is deceptive because Josh Allen had 762 yards rushing and 7 TDs, but they need to start to depend on the backs and not have Allen keep getting hit. Damien Harris is tough and physical but he does get hurt a ton as well. Would be nice to have a goal line power back and he could maybe be that. I do feel in next years draft they will be addressing the WR situation early, they need another one that is for sure. Their depth at WR is pretty weak, and Kincaid could be great but that is if he can stay on the field healthy. Technically they already have a guy in Knox who can do most the things Kincaid can do, would have been nice to get a little more powerful TE and not basically the same guy unless they plan to move on and not resign Knox. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizeGuy Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 24 minutes ago, Ozzy said: Yeah, without Doyle that hurts their backup situation and his development no question. That kid could be out of the league he only has what a year left on his rookie deal considering this year is lost to injury. Sucks, I thought he had tons of potential. The loss of Shell hurts and his retirement, because they might need him. So Spencer Brown is awful? That is disappointing, he is still young and I would think he can continue to develop. Is such a fine athlete. They really need Torrence to hit, and bringing in Ifedi helps their depth situation I feel which is nice. But yeah a lot of guys have to step up especially those two guards and Spencer Brown. I agree they do need to run more and play more two TE sets potentially, odd thing is they were 7th in the NFL in rushing yards a game last year. I would have never thought that, maybe it was just in the biggest games they totally sucked at rushing. And really it is deceptive because Josh Allen had 762 yards rushing and 7 TDs, but they need to start to depend on the backs and not have Allen keep getting hit. Damien Harris is tough and physical but he does get hurt a ton as well. Would be nice to have a goal line power back and he could maybe be that. I do feel in next years draft they will be addressing the WR situation early, they need another one that is for sure. Their depth at WR is pretty weak, and Kincaid could be great but that is if he can stay on the field healthy. Technically they already have a guy in Knox who can do most the things Kincaid can do, would have been nice to get a little more powerful TE and not basically the same guy unless they plan to move on and not resign Knox. Yeah. Brown is off the charts athletic, but he had a back injury that likely hindered him a lot last year. He was really, really bad, though. Hopefully, he can become a solid starter now that he's apparently healthy. I don't know enough about Ifedi, but he seems like a decent backup. Very few teams have a backup tackle who can play meaningful snaps at a solid level, so my expectations certainly aren't very high for him. Doyle's, unfortunately, been dealing with injuries dating back to last year. He tore his ACL against the Dolphins last year, so I'm thinking this maybe it for him. I hope I'm wrong, obviously. The running game was pretty hit or miss. Cook has shown flashes of being a solid #1 option. They were incredibly inconsistent, though, and a lot of that was due to poor blocking up front + our offensive coordinator neglecting to get the running game going, which has plagued the run game for years now. Allen definitely ups those rushing stats. I ❤️ the Harris signing. Just have to hope he stays healthy. As for Knox and Kincaid, they're actually quite a bit different. Kincaid isn't a good blocker by any means while Knox is a good blocker. Knox doesn't touch Kincaid in route running or hands, though Knox isn't a slouch in either category; he's actually made big strides in catching the ball. Kincaid is going to play A LOT in the slot, and that's an aspect of the offense that has been lacking since Beasley fell off a cliff in 2021. I was a big fan of Buffalo's first two picks in the draft this year. They've been whiffing on big hits during the draft. They draft and develop solid players for the most part but haven't hit big in the draft since Allen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkwdw13 Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 Number 4 is way off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 Eagles Lions Packers Browns Chiefs Ravens 49ers Cowboys Saints Texans 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted September 20, 2023 Author Share Posted September 20, 2023 On 9/12/2023 at 5:14 AM, Hunter2_1 said: Eagles Lions Packers Browns Chiefs Ravens 49ers Cowboys Saints Texans Easy to say now, but the Lions could be in trouble with potentially two starters out and no great replacement behind them. If Vaitai and Decker are out they will be in trouble but sure starting five if healthy are rock solid. Also especially with the Bears best OL talent in Braxton Jones is hurt and so is Teven Jenkins not to mention their center but at least they brought in Dan Feeney. Not to mention the Texans who have massive injury issues but is great Patterson is getting a chance to get legit playing time. Not clue who their starting OT will be if both Fant and Tunsil are out and Howard already out. Josh Jones maybe but who is the other... Giants have struggled but again you take Andrew Thomas out you can some massive problems along with Bredeson out as well. In terms of pure depth the Green Bay Packers are as good as any OL and I would say with that depth they get the nod over the Lions possibly. And Cleveland who knows with Conklin now out for the year, good they have depth with Dawand Jones. And once Cam Robinson comes back the Jaguars will be pretty solid. 1 Philadelphia Eagles: OT Jordan Mailata/ Fred Johnson/ Roderick Johnson OG Landon Dickerson/ Sua Opeta C Jason Kelce OG Cam Jurgens/ Tyler Steen OT Lane Johnson/ Jack Driscoll 2 Kansas City Chiefs: OT Donovan Smith/ Prince Tega Wanogho/ Wanya Morris OG Joe Thuney/ Nick Allegretti C Creed Humphrey OG Trey Smith/ OT Jawaan Taylor/ Lucas Niang 3 Green Bay Packers: OT David Bakhtiari/ Rasheed Walker OG Elgton Jenkins/ Sean Rhyan C Josh Myers/ OG Jon Runyan/ Royce Newman OT Zach Tom/ Yosh Nijman/ Caleb Jones 4 Detroit Lions: OT Taylor Decker/ Matt Nelson OG Jonah Jackson C Frank Ragnow OG Halapoulivaati Vaitai/ Graham Glasgow OT Penei Sewell/ 5 Cincinnati Bengals: OT Orlando Brown Jr OG Cordell Volson/ Max Scharping/ C Ted Karras/ Trey Hill OG Alex Cappa/ Jackson Carman/ Cody Ford OT Jonah Williams/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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