Justin Fields

[StLunatic88]

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

He didn't ignore it. He mentioned Addison.

What he did was dismiss it, just like you are trying to do. Has Williams had as much talent to throw to in college as Fields? No, no one said he did, it’s you guys trying to project what CW has around him as bums, which is FAR from the truth. Not to mention Lincoln Riley’s offensive system. 

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

Also, JSN > Addison as a prospect re: 2023's draft "best receiver"

did I say prospect? Or did I say receiver? Addison was always the most polished and NFL ready receiver, and to pretend otherwise is just you trying to place some imaginary point in Williams favor. 

[StLunatic88]

1 hour ago, Epyon said:

Fields had 4x top 15 pick WR in one receiver room in college.... with a top 3 offensive line. I wasn't kidding when I said it was literally a better WR room than any NFL team, and quite possibly any NFL team in history.

Frankly his college numbers are kind of a disappointment.  You put that much talent around caleb and he's putting up 70 points a game.

What are we doing here? This is just Twitter level meat riding going on from you guys.

You might prefer him as a prospect to Fields, but they are not on different levels. And losing his Pro-Level WR exposed Williams for that. He didn’t have a bad year, but you are pretending he looked as good without Addison this year as he did with him as last, and he just didn’t. That’s not counting numbers, that’s not some cherry picked highlights. That what I watched him do throughout this season, on the field, against not the greatest defenses. And thats before we get into projecting him to the NFL level as well as his intangibles.

When you want to have a serious conversation about Caleb Williams, and not this nonsense, let me know

[AZBearsFan]

2 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

I've seen every snap of Fields in the NFL. I've seen almost every snap of Williams for the last 2 years.

Those aren’t the same thing. One is professional football. The other isn’t. It’s not a perfect comparison to look at Fields’ passing 3 and 4 years ago but comparing one’s work as a pro against the other playing against a whole bunch of non-NFL talent is an even more flawed way to do it. Justin was a more accurate passer in college than Caleb was. That hasn’t translated completely over as yet to the NFL. It’s a blind assumption to declare that we know how it’s going to translate over for Williams. Bryce Young was an accurate passer in college (though not to the level of Fields or Williams), and for the most part he can’t touch his *** with both hands in year 1 against pro defenses. I’m not saying you’re wrong - what I’m saying is that we don’t yet know if your assumption is accurate either. 

[Epyon]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

When you want to have a serious conversation about Caleb Williams, and not this nonsense, let me know

The conversations regarding Williams need to start with a serious admission about what Fields is....... 75% of the fan base still thinks he's the next Tom Brady for god only knows what reason. When the reality is that the guy is basically Trubisky but more athletic.

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

You might prefer him as a prospect to Fields, but they are not on different levels

This is just delusional either way you are comparing it.... You have multiple years of evidence showing that Fields is a bottom tier NFL QB. To measure him against Caleb in future potential, Caleb hands down wins.... Hell Maye wins that too... Maybe Daniels as well if you believe in him.

But if you meant comparing them prospect to prospect in their respective draft classes, it was pretty obvious Fields wasn't particularly well thought of. Zach Wilson, Trey Lance, and T Law all went above him, and multiple teams that needed a qb looked at Fields and said "nah we good". Almost no one has had anyone but Williams at the top of this draft class, and those that have I suspect either didn't watch his 22 film, or only saw Drake Maye's highlights. This is also considered one of the stronger classes in memory, and Williams is being talked about as generational, in the same manner as Andrew Luck and Trevor Lawrence where as prospects.

41 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Bryce Young was an accurate passer in college (though not to the level of Fields or Williams), and for the most part he can’t touch his *** with both hands in year 1 against pro defenses.

Bryce Young is also built like high school kid....  He wouldn't be the first, and certainly won't be the last person to enter the NFL and be unable to handle the size/physicality of the game.

[StLunatic88]

34 minutes ago, Epyon said:

75% of the fan base still thinks he's the next Tom Brady for god only knows what reason. When the reality is that the guy is basically Trubisky but more athletic.

What in the world are you talking about? Please go find anyone EVER talking about Justin Fields as Tom Brady, much less in the last 6 months.

This is what I’m talking about when I say you aren’t ready/able to have a serious conversation, because you are starting in Banana Land just so you can think you’ve scored some imaginary point in your favor. 

34 minutes ago, Epyon said:

This is just delusional either way you are comparing it.... You have multiple years of evidence showing that Fields is a bottom tier NFL QB. To measure him against Caleb in future potential, Caleb hands down wins.... Hell Maye wins that too... Maybe Daniels as well if you believe in him.

Pospect, Prospect, PROSPECT. We are talking about them as Prospects because as has been pointed out multiple times now, that is the only equal footing you can compare them on at this point. Doing anything else is Apples to Oranges. 

34 minutes ago, Epyon said:

But if you meant comparing them prospect to prospect in their respective draft classes, it was pretty obvious Fields wasn't particularly well thought of. Zach Wilson, Trey Lance, and T Law all went above him, and multiple teams that needed a qb looked at Fields and said "nah we good".

He was thought of well enough that the Bears had to trade up to get him. This wasn’t a Kenny Pickett situation (we will get back to him in a minute) where no one was going to touch him. All Wilson and Lance prove is that NFL teams get it wrong all the time. And if you go by reality, not some revisionist history, the consensus in real time was that the Jets were being dumb, and the Niners couldn’t even actually agree on their pick, and most questioned it as well. The only prospect that Justin Fields was actually behind in that draft was Trevor Lawrence, someone who Caleb Williams would be just as far behind as a prospect if they were in the same class. 

34 minutes ago, Epyon said:

Almost no one has had anyone but Williams at the top of this draft class, and those that have I suspect either didn't watch his 22 film, or only saw Drake Maye's highlights.

You are seriously going to try and go with people “didn’t watch the Heisman Trophy Winners film”? And if you are living outside of the Caleb Williams bubble, you would know he is not some unquestioned top prospect, it’s actually the biggest question of this draft; who the best QB prospect is?

34 minutes ago, Epyon said:

This is also considered one of the stronger classes in memory,

That’s news to me, especially when you put qualifiers like “in memory” it’s flat out just not true

34 minutes ago, Epyon said:

Williams is being talked about as generational, in the same manner as Andrew Luck and Trevor Lawrence where as prospects.

No, he absolutely is not. And hasn’t been for nearly this entire season. He had that hype/hope as the Sophomore Heisman winner, but has fallen quite short of those overhyped expectations. There is only one sect of people who even think about using the word “generational” when it comes to Caleb Williams. And it’s a very small minority.

 

I wasn’t going to do this, but now I’m up at Midnight so here we go;

Caleb Williams had plenty of talent to throw to this year; a reliable Super Sr (who went for over 1000 yards), Jerry Rice’s kid (who will be an NFL receiver next year, because he’s good and not because of who his father is) and then a pair of 5 Star recruits (who barely combined for 60 catches on the year) so there was absolutely talent there. 

But should that even matter? Because every time that someone around here brings up the talent level of weapons around Fields, all I see from this side of the isle is smarmy remarks about how “everyone would be great with all the talent around him”. And that if we had a real Franchise QB that they would “elevate all the talent around them”… Since that’s the case, please point to me the weapons that Caleb Williams has Elevated in his career? Honestly, what player has he played with got/will get drafted higher than they were going to already?

Actually, the only real case study we do have is Jordan Addison himself, who actually LOST draft value when linking with CW. The guy was the Biletnikoff winner as a sophomore with Kenny Pickett (told you we’d be back here) throwing him the ball, a guy who almost everyone thinks is already a bust, and was only drafted as high as he was because a playoff team was desperate for a cheap QB. Then goes out to USC in the Lincoln Riley offense and regresses? Couldn’t be because there were more mouths to feed out there, because according to you guys Williams is throwing to bums this year.

(Do I actually believe it was only Williams fault? No. But these are real numbers, a real thing that happened, that no one on the Caleb Williams **** riding train will even engage on, much less be able to explain away)

 

Caleb Williams is a good prospect, but he is NO WHERE NEAR Generational, he isn’t even the clear cut top QB prospect in his own draft. And the fact that you guys can’t even admit those simple things, put you in the camp I pointed out earlier in this very thread, that apparently are so far gone that you can’t even have a reasonable discussion with, and you are doubling down on fairy tale nonsense. So again, when you want to come back to earth on this, I’ll gladly discuss him as a prospect, but this slob job you’re giving him is too much to even waste my time with anymore. 

[Epyon]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

he isn’t even the clear cut top QB prospect in his own draft. And the fact that you guys can’t even admit those simple thing

This is blatantly disingenuous at best.  The only reason anyone even paid attention to Maye as a potential top prospect is because he had good highlight reels (completely ignoring his lowlights), prospect fatigue, and media needing stories in order to generate clicks. It's not good for their business model if the QB1 is decided a full year in advance.  Watch his tape, it's going to be the same exact problems Mitch had coming out of UNC: the entire offense is half field, single read plays.  Maybe he can overcome that, maybe not..... but you literally have to teach the kid the single hardest aspect of playing NFL QB from scratch to get him there.   Unless maybe you meant Daniels? I'm  not personally hitching my wagon to another running qb... particularly when he's not that dynamic a runner, and has size concerns (in the respect that it brings up durability concerns). Fields is built better and still has pretty sizable durability concerns himself.

 

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

Since that’s the case, please point to me the weapons that Caleb Williams has Elevated in his career?

Jerry Rice's kid for starters.... If he wasn't Rices kid and/or hadn't been playing with Williams you wouldn't even know he existed. Maybe a 6th-UDFA talent wise.

 

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

What in the world are you talking about? Please go find anyone EVER talking about Justin Fields as Tom Brady, much less in the last 6 months.

This is what I’m talking about when I say you aren’t ready/able to have a serious conversation, because you are starting in Banana Land just so you can think you’ve scored some imaginary point in your favor. 

There's been a few polls done by podcasts, facebook, and reddit lately. 75% of the respondents want JF1 to be the QB next year, because they for some unknown reason think he is going to lead them to a Lombardi. That's a consistent response rate among those mediums.

You want to talk about people living Banana Land? What in the last 3 years has Fields done to warrant even the slightest indication he might become a top 15 QB, let alone an elite one? Let alone worth keeping instead of drafting a better prospect..... let alone paying a 5th year option to, let alone another contract? As far as I'm concerned, 75% of our fans want to bury this franchise like the Giants did resigning Daniel Jones.

EDIT: The newest NBC poll has us 57% taking MHJ at #1 overall. Which might actually be worse..... Christ I hate this city sometimes.

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

Actually, the only real case study we do have is Jordan Addison himself, who actually LOST draft value when linking with CW.

Addison's stock was lowered because Addison is an outlier for size at the position. The concern was always potential injuries and physicality vs stronger corners. He proved he can handle the latter.... but he's also at least somewhat validated the former.

 

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

That’s news to me, especially when you put qualifiers like “in memory” it’s flat out just not true

Watch/listen to more draft coverage then. People have been listing Caleb and Maye consistently above everyone in recent memory save TLaw and Burrow..... Caleb has been ahead of TLaw on many of those lists as well, and only behind Luck and Burrow.

 

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

You are seriously going to try and go with people “didn’t watch the Heisman Trophy Winners film”?

Yeah I don't believe for a second most people have actually watched the film before they run off to the internet to spout their opinions. 75% of the Bears fans want Fields back, ffs. It's hardly unique to this draft class either.... Hell, half the people who didn't like Fields in his draft class where immediately out on him because of "Ohio State QB". That sure as hell didn't stop them from jumping into the fray to declare he was a bust (and frankly a similar phenomenon, albeit with Fields also not doing well, combined to tank Stroud below Young). Now granted, in Fields' case, they have since been proven right, but their reasoning was entirely wrong.

 

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

And the fact that you guys can’t even admit those simple things, put you in the camp I pointed out earlier in this very thread, that apparently are so far gone that you can’t even have a reasonable discussion with, and you are doubling down on fairy tale nonsense. So again, when you want to come back to earth on this, I’ll gladly discuss him as a prospect, but this slob job you’re giving him is too much to even waste my time with anymore. 

I'm not the one acting delusional there, cupcake....  The boldest things I've said about Caleb Williams is that he's ALREADY a better NFL passer than Justin Fields (and it's not close, but hell, Jordan Love is a better QB than Fields, it's not exactly climbing Mount Everest), and that if he had the team around him in college that Fields did, he'd have put up way more points than Fields did. OTHER people have thrown the generational term around, though I do personally have him ~3rd or 4th on my recent QB prospects (Burrow >= Mahomes >> Williams/TLaw  being the top 4 I've scouted with Williams and TLaw being close as prospects (though I was a touch lower on TLaw.... The way he lost the Natty and then the next year lost to Ohio State both seemed a bit "off"....He wasn't used to losing and that was part of it, but also I guess I kinda felt like I kept waiting for him to "Aaron Rodgers" a team in a game I watched and he just never did  (hard to describe concept here.... but like I wanted to see him just take a game over and dominate it as a passer and it never happened in the games of his I saw.)

Had Caleb dominated this year like last year I'd have had him in the Burrow/Mahomes tier as "generational".

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Epyon

[beardown3231]

9 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

What he did was dismiss it, just like you are trying to do. Has Williams had as much talent to throw to in college as Fields? No, no one said he did, it’s you guys trying to project what CW has around him as bums, which is FAR from the truth. Not to mention Lincoln Riley’s offensive system. 

did I say prospect? Or did I say receiver? Addison was always the most polished and NFL ready receiver, and to pretend otherwise is just you trying to place some imaginary point in Williams favor. 

Right, he lost his ONLY good NFL prospect and his rating actually increased in 2023. The Riley system had no effect on Hurts or Mahomes- TT was using his ****

No, JSN was a better WR going into the draft and that's why he went earlier than Addison

 

9 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

What are we doing here? This is just Twitter level meat riding going on from you guys.

You might prefer him as a prospect to Fields, but they are not on different levels. And losing his Pro-Level WR exposed Williams for that. He didn’t have a bad year, but you are pretending he looked as good without Addison this year as he did with him as last, and he just didn’t. That’s not counting numbers, that’s not some cherry picked highlights. That what I watched him do throughout this season, on the field, against not the greatest defenses. And thats before we get into projecting him to the NFL level as well as his intangibles.

When you want to have a serious conversation about Caleb Williams, and not this nonsense, let me know

On one hand you want to have "serious Williams conversations" and another you're worried he's too Hollywood right now & compared him to Todd Marinovich which can be thought of as "meat riding" I guess (whatever that means). Why does your opinion matter, especially something straight out of the tabloids like that, constitute as "serious" but us comparing the talent around them in college is unserious?

 

8 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

Those aren’t the same thing. One is professional football. The other isn’t. It’s not a perfect comparison to look at Fields’ passing 3 and 4 years ago but comparing one’s work as a pro against the other playing against a whole bunch of non-NFL talent is an even more flawed way to do it. Justin was a more accurate passer in college than Caleb was. That hasn’t translated completely over as yet to the NFL. It’s a blind assumption to declare that we know how it’s going to translate over for Williams. Bryce Young was an accurate passer in college (though not to the level of Fields or Williams), and for the most part he can’t touch his *** with both hands in year 1 against pro defenses. I’m not saying you’re wrong - what I’m saying is that we don’t yet know if your assumption is accurate either. 

And Fields was accurate in college too yet many had his slow release and ability to scan the field as weaknesses. Nobody has that for Williams.

Edited December 29, 2023 by beardown3231

[beardown3231]

6 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

What in the world are you talking about? Please go find anyone EVER talking about Justin Fields as Tom Brady, much less in the last 6 months.

This is what I’m talking about when I say you aren’t ready/able to have a serious conversation, because you are starting in Banana Land just so you can think you’ve scored some imaginary point in your favor. 

Pospect, Prospect, PROSPECT. We are talking about them as Prospects because as has been pointed out multiple times now, that is the only equal footing you can compare them on at this point. Doing anything else is Apples to Oranges. 

He was thought of well enough that the Bears had to trade up to get him. This wasn’t a Kenny Pickett situation (we will get back to him in a minute) where no one was going to touch him. All Wilson and Lance prove is that NFL teams get it wrong all the time. And if you go by reality, not some revisionist history, the consensus in real time was that the Jets were being dumb, and the Niners couldn’t even actually agree on their pick, and most questioned it as well. The only prospect that Justin Fields was actually behind in that draft was Trevor Lawrence, someone who Caleb Williams would be just as far behind as a prospect if they were in the same class. 

You are seriously going to try and go with people “didn’t watch the Heisman Trophy Winners film”? And if you are living outside of the Caleb Williams bubble, you would know he is not some unquestioned top prospect, it’s actually the biggest question of this draft; who the best QB prospect is?

That’s news to me, especially when you put qualifiers like “in memory” it’s flat out just not true

No, he absolutely is not. And hasn’t been for nearly this entire season. He had that hype/hope as the Sophomore Heisman winner, but has fallen quite short of those overhyped expectations. There is only one sect of people who even think about using the word “generational” when it comes to Caleb Williams. And it’s a very small minority.

 

I wasn’t going to do this, but now I’m up at Midnight so here we go;

Caleb Williams had plenty of talent to throw to this year; a reliable Super Sr (who went for over 1000 yards), Jerry Rice’s kid (who will be an NFL receiver next year, because he’s good and not because of who his father is) and then a pair of 5 Star recruits (who barely combined for 60 catches on the year) so there was absolutely talent there. 

But should that even matter? Because every time that someone around here brings up the talent level of weapons around Fields, all I see from this side of the isle is smarmy remarks about how “everyone would be great with all the talent around him”. And that if we had a real Franchise QB that they would “elevate all the talent around them”… Since that’s the case, please point to me the weapons that Caleb Williams has Elevated in his career? Honestly, what player has he played with got/will get drafted higher than they were going to already?

You do know just because they're guys related to Jerry Rice doesn't mean he should light up the football world, right? Who cares who's son it is. Rice isn't going high in the draft. He's not any good. Mario Williams WAS good and I'm only using this stupid excuse because everyone uses it for Mooney. Mooney was good and now apparently isn't because reasons, so yeah Mario Williams isn't good anymore either. Tahj Washington is absolutely a good example of someone who Williams made better

And again, you're referring to two 5* guys as talent around him. How come when we mentioned JSN and Jameson Williams we were crushed because they did nothing for Fields? But they count against Caleb Williams?

Actually, the only real case study we do have is Jordan Addison himself, who actually LOST draft value when linking with CW. The guy was the Biletnikoff winner as a sophomore with Kenny Pickett (told you we’d be back here) throwing him the ball, a guy who almost everyone thinks is already a bust, and was only drafted as high as he was because a playoff team was desperate for a cheap QB. Then goes out to USC in the Lincoln Riley offense and regresses? Couldn’t be because there were more mouths to feed out there, because according to you guys Williams is throwing to bums this year.

(Do I actually believe it was only Williams fault? No. But these are real numbers, a real thing that happened, that no one on the Caleb Williams **** riding train will even engage on, much less be able to explain away)

 

Caleb Williams is a good prospect, but he is NO WHERE NEAR Generational, he isn’t even the clear cut top QB prospect in his own draft. And the fact that you guys can’t even admit those simple things, put you in the camp I pointed out earlier in this very thread, that apparently are so far gone that you can’t even have a reasonable discussion with, and you are doubling down on fairy tale nonsense. So again, when you want to come back to earth on this, I’ll gladly discuss him as a prospect, but this slob job you’re giving him is too much to even waste my time with anymore. 

 

[G08]

12 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

I said he was there. He literally had 4 first round picks on the roster at WR. Did Epyon or I say anything wrong?

Hell, take JSN and Williams out. Either Olave or Wilson would be the best WR Williams ever threw to

Do you think Williams, JSN, Olave and Wilson is worse than what Williams had? Or Maye? Or Daniels?

Name calling. Cute. You really would go to any extent to defend this guy, wouldn't you?

Oh he was THERE! That's awesome!! Let's ignore the fact they hardly played together just to make a cockamamie comment like "he had 4 first round picks on the roster at WR".

My goodness 🤣

[beardown3231]

26 minutes ago, G08 said:

Oh he was THERE! That's awesome!! Let's ignore the fact they hardly played together just to make a cockamamie comment like "he had 4 first round picks on the roster at WR".

My goodness 🤣

Maybe they would've had more of an impact on the field had the QB been able to see the entire thing?

Once again, the argument was Williams and Fields had similar college careers statistically so perhaps Williams will also struggle with accuracy in the NFL, whereas my argument is not one person is claiming accuracy issues, slow release and ability to read defenses as weaknesses for Williams while everyone was saying that for Fields AND Fields had *much* better players AROUND HIM than Williams ever did

Edited December 29, 2023 by beardown3231

[G08]

46 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Maybe they would've had more of an impact on the field had the QB been able to see the entire thing?

This is gold, thank you.

 

2019: Justin Fields played 918 snaps

The top 3 WRs in snaps in 2019 were: KJ Hill (677), Chris Olave (508), Binjimin Victor (504) 

JSN was still in high school 😂

 

2020: Justin Fields played 578 snaps

The top 3 WRs in snaps in 2020 were: Chris Olave (444), Garrett Wilson (472), Jameson Williams (308)

 

You need to stop -- you're embarrassing yourself.

Edited December 29, 2023 by G08

[beardown3231]

19 minutes ago, G08 said:

This is gold, thank you.

 

2019: Justin Fields played 918 snaps

The top 3 WRs in snaps in 2019 were: KJ Hill (677), Chris Olave (508), Binjimin Victor (504) 

JSN was still in high school 😂

 

2020: Justin Fields played 578 snaps

The top 3 WRs in snaps in 2020 were: Chris Olave (444), Garrett Wilson (472), Jameson Williams (308)

 

You need to stop -- you're embarrassing yourself.

Huh? I'm embarrassing myself? What is your point here?

JSN was a freshman in 2020

Williams was a sophomore in 2020

Olave was a junior in 2020

Wilson was a sophomore in 2020

THEY WERE QUITE LITERALLY ALL IN THE SAME ROOM IN 2020. How dense and obtuse can one person be?

Yeah, Williams played 308 snaps. He had 9 catches in those 308 snaps. He left because the QB was only throwing to 2 guys. Drrrrr

Edited December 29, 2023 by beardown3231

[G08]

23 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Huh? I'm embarrassing myself? What is your point here?

JSN was a freshman in 2020

Williams was a sophomore in 2020

Olave was a junior in 2020

Wilson was a sophomore in 2020

THEY WERE QUITE LITERALLY ALL IN THE SAME ROOM IN 2020. How dense and obtuse can one person be?

Yeah, Williams played 308 snaps. He had 9 catches in those 308 snaps. He left because the QB was only throwing to 2 guys. Drrrrr

[G08]

This made my day, thank you. Enjoy the rest of the season!

[refundmytickets]

A few thoughts:

Fields has the highest top-end potential of any NFL QB. He's not just a running QB. He's an elite rusher who makes extremely difficult throws. There is no QB in the NFL or college with his combination of traits.

But he's not without flaws. He's not a natural processor. He operates very mechanically despite his athleticism. Compared to good QBs, he looks downright slow playing the position. Fields can make impossible plays look easy. But he too often makes easy plays look impossible.

There's absolutely a superstar outcome in Fields' range of possibilities. But the needle hasn't moved much since his draft year. He still gets the ball out late. He's still playing with the same clunky footwork and prolonged release. Unless his development really takes off, it's unlikely he reaches that top-end.

It's clear Getsy doesn't trust him. And if a coach don't trust his QB, adding another WR or OL isn't going to change the offense. The Bears already added a top WR and several OL starters. Yet Fields is having about the same success as last season. That should give pause to those advocating for more pieces around him.

Can you build a successful offense around what Fields is right now? That's the question Bears brass must answer. And given Justin's limitations as a QB, I'm not sure he'll ever operate an elite offense. I think too many factors are working against him.

For me, this is another example of "Potential doesn't win games, potential gets you fired."

Edited December 29, 2023 by refundmytickets