lavar703 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 9 minutes ago, RSkinGM said: I'd risk Jaylen Daniels over Maye w/ a gun to head to pick a Q B. I'm worried about the drama with Williams but if he' sitting there at #2 -he's in Washington next year. Otherwise I'd like to trade down and if the Bears take Williams, I'm going to see how cheap I can get Fields . I like him for our natural 3 this year . We'd probably get outbid . I don't see the point of moving on from Sam if you're doing it to go to Fields? What Sam showed in the first 10 weeks of the season is better than anything I think Fields has shown. If you aren't taking one of the top three I'm just rolling with Sam. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Land Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 11 minutes ago, Slappy Mc said: I disagree, but I understand people's fascination with what else is available. Caleb Williams is really the only "polished" prospect and his me-first personality/family dynamic is enough for me to hope he doesn't come here. To me, Maye is a taller version of Howell. Same hero-ball mentality, same bad decision making when pressured. Plus I hate that all these college teams are putting their QBs in shotgun 85+% of the time. I think Maye would be a solid 2nd round pick in a good QB year. I disagree, I think you're only saying that because he also went to UNC. Drake Maye is wildly similar to Justin Herbert. I'm not saying he will be as good as Herbert (but he has a similar ceiling), but the offenses they ran and college, their footwork, release, Maye is 2 inches shorter, but similar stature. I personally would not pass on a Herbert like talent (again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Mc Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 3 minutes ago, lavar703 said: Maybe at @e16bball could give better insight on Maye but there is no way he would ever be a 2nd round pick. I think there is a fascination every year with teams who don't have their QBotF feeling the pressure to find them. I think lots of QBs get over valued for this reason and ultimately overdrafted. It's the way of the NFL though. I fully anticipate Williams, Maye and Daniels to go in the top 10, but if this was a BPA prospect by prospect thing, I think only Williams cracks the top 15. I'm not knocking us picking a QB or Maye, just stating that if we truly were drafting BPA they wouldn't be drafted so high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Land Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Slappy Mc said: I think there is a fascination every year with teams who don't have their QBotF feeling the pressure to find them. I think lots of QBs get over valued for this reason and ultimately overdrafted. It's the way of the NFL though. I fully anticipate Williams, Maye and Daniels to go in the top 10, but if this was a BPA prospect by prospect thing, I think only Williams cracks the top 15. I'm not knocking us picking a QB or Maye, just stating that if we truly were drafting BPA they wouldn't be drafted so high. Go look at any of the draft analysts big boards. Almost every single one has Williams, Maye and Harrison JR as their top 3, and some have Daniels ahead of Maye. This is the same thing as people not wanting to draft CJ Stroud last year because "Ohio St QB's aren't good in the NFL". Well Stroud sure seems to have debunked that theory. Unless Washington trades back for an absolute HAUL of picks/players, it would be an absolute travesty to not draft one of these QB's. Edited January 10 by Scott Land Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Mc Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 4 minutes ago, Scott Land said: I disagree, I think you're only saying that because he also went to UNC. You are entitled to your opinion. 5 minutes ago, Scott Land said: Drake Maye is wildly similar to Justin Herbert. I'm not saying he will be as good as Herbert (but he has a similar ceiling), but the offenses they ran and college, their footwork, release, Maye is 2 inches shorter, but similar stature. I personally would not pass on a Herbert like talent (again). I want you to watch Maye again and tell me that he doesn't lock onto his first receiver too long. Tell me that when pressured he doesn't play hero-ball too often leading to sacks and turnovers. I think he throws a beautiful ball. His height and weight are prototypical and ideal. Also, and this isn't his fault, he played out of the Shotgun about 90% of the time. NFL average was roughly 60% last year. I am very concerned about QBs that never play under center. I think he could end up as a good NFL QB, but I have my reservations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Mc Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 minute ago, Scott Land said: Go look at any of the draft analysts big boards. Almost every single one has Williams, Maye and Harrison JR as their top 3, and some have Daniels ahead of Maye. This is the same thing as people not wanting to draft CJ Stroud last year because "Ohio St QB's aren't good in the NFL". Well Stroud sure seems to have debunked that theory. Unless Washington trades back for an absolute HAUL of picks/players, it would be an absolute travesty to not draft one of these QB's. I get it. I know there are going to be people that don't like what I'm saying, but I disagree with you and pretty much everyone claiming that Williams and Maye are top prospects. I would put Williams in the top 15, maybe even top 10, but Maye would be lucky to crack the top 30 IMO. I'm no talent evaluator and definitely not a draft analyst like all those you are speaking of, but I'm just really not impressed by this class. Just my opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 15 minutes ago, Scott Land said: I disagree, I think you're only saying that because he also went to UNC. Drake Maye is wildly similar to Justin Herbert. I'm not saying he will be as good as Herbert (but he has a similar ceiling), but the offenses they ran and college, their footwork, release, Maye is 2 inches shorter, but similar stature. I personally would not pass on a Herbert like talent (again). I've heard that comparison but Herbert is huge. I've always thought Maye was more like Matthew Stafford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 35 minutes ago, lavar703 said: Maye was great his freshman year and then lost Phil Longo to Wisconsin and his top receiver in Josh Downs. Without Maye I don't even see how that UNC team wins more than 4-5 games? They were a bad team with a really good QB. Maybe at @e16bball could give better insight on Maye but there is no way he would ever be a 2nd round pick. I mean, its not like he wasn't heavily recruited out of High School and just chose UNC because. He was recruited by all the heavy hitters and wanted to stay home. I love Sam but I don't think he and Maye are really all that similar. It could just be me but I think they're totally different QBs. 100%. A 21-years-old-on-draft-day kid who is a physical prototype like Maye is not dropping to the 2nd round in any draft. It’s impossible to imagine a scenario where he would ever drop out of the top 12-15, actually, because he’s precisely the type of talent that some good team would move up for if he did manage to sneak past all the garbage teams. He checks every box physically: height, weight, speed, arm strength, arm looseness. He absolutely rips the ball between the numbers, every bit the equal of Williams in terms of arm talent on those throws. Probably quite not as much on the throws to the perimeter. He’s better than Williams at stepping up in the pocket to buy time or change his window, though of course he (like virtually every other human being who has ever touched a football) does not have Caleb’s magic for extending plays. Very effective runner, not a home run threat like Daniels or even Williams probably, but he pulls it down more decisively than Caleb and it’s almost always a successful play when he does run. Again, the creativity pales a little bit because he’s unfortunate enough to be stuck in comparison to Caleb Williams, but he’s excellent while ad-libbing and he pulled some wild plays out of his hat. He struggles with pressure. No kidding, so does every young QB. The ones that look good are the one who don’t get consistently, relentlessly pressured. It’s not a coincidence that Daniels, Penix, Nix, and McCarthy played behind arguably 4 of the top 6-8 OLs in the country. It’s much easier to stay in rhythm and work comfortably through your professions when there’s not constantly someone teeing off on you. Maye was under siege all year, and you could see it get to him at times. But that happens with pretty much every young QB, it’s not some grand condemnation of Drake Maye because he couldn’t singlehandedly deter pressure (with one decent receiver for half the year) as a 21-year-old second-year starter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 50 minutes ago, Slappy Mc said: I think there is a fascination every year with teams who don't have their QBotF feeling the pressure to find them. I think lots of QBs get over valued for this reason and ultimately overdrafted. It's the way of the NFL though. I fully anticipate Williams, Maye and Daniels to go in the top 10, but if this was a BPA prospect by prospect thing, I think only Williams cracks the top 15. I'm not knocking us picking a QB or Maye, just stating that if we truly were drafting BPA they wouldn't be drafted so high. I get how you feel. In some sense I do agree with you but I don't agree about where they would be placed BPA. These are three very talented QBs although I tend to put Williams and Maye a bit higher than Daniels. The sad thing is we almost need to do this because of how bad next years class is and there's a very good chance whatever QB we pick is going to be a bust. Its just how the percentages tend to see it. Most of these QBs picked in every draft are going to suck. But you can't stop trying and if Maye, Williams or Daniels hits you're set for the next 10-15 years. You're competing for championships year in and year out. I think Maye or Williams would be going this high in any draft they came out in. They just have tools most QBs don't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT14 Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 Drake Maye is definitely much closer to Justin Herbert than Sam Howell, especially at 6'4" 230 lbs. I'm not sure how that's even a debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 I think there’s some “results” scouting going on at this point in the process. Who has more successful plays this season? Daniels, Penix, Nix. Who had more unsuccessful plays this season? Williams, Maye. I would probably agree with both of those points. It shows up in the stats/metrics and it shows up on the film. But leave that thought process for the Heisman voters — that’s whose job it is to determine who had the best 2023 season. If you’re trying to project them moving forward, then you have to look much more closely at physical attributes and the context of their performances. In terms of the context, I’ve mentioned all this before, but Maye is the youngest of the top 5 prospects (in my book, as I don’t really count McCarthy) by almost a year, he’s the least experienced, he had the worst OL play, and he had the worst receiver play. He did benefit from arguably the weakest schedule, but if we’re comparing ACC to Pac 12 on defense, I think that’s a wash at best for the west coasters. And it’s not like the SEC is close to what it used to be defensively, either. Pretty much all of that context has to be baked into how you see the game when you watch him. What he’s doing in the passing game is MUCH harder than what Daniels is doing, for example. Daniels consistently has time to throw, and he has elite receivers getting much more open than Maye’s guys, making the great (and often the easy) catches that Maye’s guys couldn’t, and making huge plays after the catch for him. The one thing I want to mention at the end here is what I really like about Maye: he plays like an athlete. Sort of hard to describe, but his movements are sort of loose and limber, his body is flexible and pliable in the sense of being able to get off throws from weird angles or bad platforms, he has the body control to be a little bit elusive on the run or in the pocket. A lot of these tall, big arm QBs seem to be very stiff, and if you can move them off their spot, they can’t do anything. Maye seems more like Herbert in the sense that he can do the necessary bending and contorting and adapting to make the athletic plays that make some of these top QBs special. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 14 minutes ago, lavar703 said: The sad thing is we almost need to do this because of how bad next years class is and there's a very good chance whatever QB we pick is going to be a bust. I think even beyond this, there’s no guarantee whatsoever that we’ll be back in this position next year. Even this year, it’s only by the grace of a few surprising late-season wins by other teams and a handful of SOS points that we have the opportunity to grab one of the top 2 QBs on our board without trading up. We had pick 2 in 2020, we decided to try to build out the team around a QB that many of us (and most moreso than me) already knew deep down didn’t have it. We missed on two pretty good QBs by doing that, and then we went through four more dreary and mostly pointless seasons in the wilderness with no QB we could possibly compete with on the roster. Chances like this don’t come around every year. I get the appeal of waiting, but eventually you have to strike. Get a gifted guy and build it up around him to give him the best chance to succeed. We know better than just about anyone that if you don’t have a QB, you have to have pretty much everything else in order to have even a chance to win meaningfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 8 minutes ago, e16bball said: I think there’s some “results” scouting going on at this point in the process. Who has more successful plays this season? Daniels, Penix, Nix. Who had more unsuccessful plays this season? Williams, Maye. I would probably agree with both of those points. It shows up in the stats/metrics and it shows up on the film. But leave that thought process for the Heisman voters — that’s whose job it is to determine who had the best 2023 season. If you’re trying to project them moving forward, then you have to look much more closely at physical attributes and the context of their performances. In terms of the context, I’ve mentioned all this before, but Maye is the youngest of the top 5 prospects (in my book, as I don’t really count McCarthy) by almost a year, he’s the least experienced, he had the worst OL play, and he had the worst receiver play. He did benefit from arguably the weakest schedule, but if we’re comparing ACC to Pac 12 on defense, I think that’s a wash at best for the west coasters. And it’s not like the SEC is close to what it used to be defensively, either. Pretty much all of that context has to be baked into how you see the game when you watch him. What he’s doing in the passing game is MUCH harder than what Daniels is doing, for example. Daniels consistently has time to throw, and he has elite receivers getting much more open than Maye’s guys, making the great (and often the easy) catches that Maye’s guys couldn’t, and making huge plays after the catch for him. The one thing I want to mention at the end here is what I really like about Maye: he plays like an athlete. Sort of hard to describe, but his movements are sort of loose and limber, his body is flexible and pliable in the sense of being able to get off throws from weird angles or bad platforms, he has the body control to be a little bit elusive on the run or in the pocket. A lot of these tall, big arm QBs seem to be very stiff, and if you can move them off their spot, they can’t do anything. Maye seems more like Herbert in the sense that he can do the necessary bending and contorting and adapting to make the athletic plays that make some of these top QBs special. I mean, before Tez Walker was finally allowed to play Bryson Nesbit was basically Maye's best receiver and he's their TE. I'm much higher on Nesbit than most of the draftniks see him and I think if he decides to come out he's going to be really good in the pros but that's all Maye had. There was nobody else lol. That team is terrible. Edited January 10 by lavar703 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 3 minutes ago, e16bball said: I think even beyond this, there’s no guarantee whatsoever that we’ll be back in this position next year. Even this year, it’s only by the grace of a few surprising late-season wins by other teams and a handful of SOS points that we have the opportunity to grab one of the top 2 QBs on our board without trading up. We had pick 2 in 2020, we decided to try to build out the team around a QB that many of us (and most moreso than me) already knew deep down didn’t have it. We missed on two pretty good QBs by doing that, and then we went through four more dreary and mostly pointless seasons in the wilderness with no QB we could possibly compete with on the roster. Chances like this don’t come around every year. I get the appeal of waiting, but eventually you have to strike. Get a gifted guy and build it up around him to give him the best chance to succeed. We know better than just about anyone that if you don’t have a QB, you have to have pretty much everything else in order to have even a chance to win meaningfully. It was almost impossible for us to end up with the 2nd pick at one point this season and very late in the season as well. The percentage to do so was insanely low and its like the football gods decided this had to happen lol. The breaks they got to end up with this pick just weren't normal and almost never happen. This pick is a gift. You can't keep looking the gift horse in the mouth. I also hate the Bears example of trading our pick and what we can get for it. The only thing that bailed them out of trading last years pick was that they ended up with the first pick this year. Every single Bears fan would trade all of those picks they got for CJ Stroud right now. There is no Caleb Williams or Drake Maye in next years draft and had the Panthers won some games and that pick ended up around 11 or 12 the Bears would be stuck with Fields. They were simply bailed out by how bad the Panthers were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 24 minutes ago, e16bball said: In terms of the context, I’ve mentioned all this before, but Maye is the youngest of the top 5 prospects (in my book, as I don’t really count McCarthy) by almost a year, he’s the least experienced I think he also missed an entire year of High School football because of covid too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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