Rank the 32 Starters at QB

[NoFlyZone]

10 hours ago, El Ramster said:

Get well brother.. Get well.. See you later I have a whole as melt down to deal with rn. 

This actually made me laugh out loud. Yesterday sucked. 

[NoFlyZone]

1 hour ago, Soggust said:

True, but that's why he's in the convo in the first place. We could make the argument that, sans-playoff performance Dak was statistically more impressive, just this year.

Now, I understand it's kind of a "besides that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?" take after today, but if Lamar poops the bed am I really going to take him out purely based on playoff performance? I don't think I am.

In fact, what if Josh Allen goes out and throws a few picks today and they lose to the Steelers? Am I going to pretend he's just not good anymore because we know he's hot and cold? Nah, he would still be in that tier for me.

So, if I'm not punishing others for being terrible in the playoffs, why punish Dak?

Why can’t we all just watch football this way. Why. Everything is sooo sensationalized and overreacted to. 

[stl4life07]

I dont want to hear anyone say Dak is a top 10 QB and Goff isnt a top 10 QB.

Goff shows up in the playoffs and Dak shrinks. Now Im not putting everything on Dak but how do you go from having a career year to immediately kickoff of a playoff game you act like you cant play ball? 

So I hope these playoffs make a few things clear. Dak isnt a top 10 QB, Goff is a top 10 QB and so is Stafford. Stafford played the type of game that Dak shouldve played. Even in a loss you cant blame Stafford. He played better or at worse equal to Goff in a hostile environment while he was getting beat up. Dak was at home even though he had the weight of the world to win that game. He just couldnt thrive under real pressure. 

So again moving forward no more Dak top 10 QB talk until he proves it in the playoffs. Goff is a top 10 QB and so is Stafford.

 

[El Ramster]

On 1/11/2024 at 3:41 PM, Soggust said:

But what do playoff wins matter if you don’t win the chip? I thought the goal was a Lombardi. 

Why would we dismiss entire years of great play just because someone simply failed a game further in the playoffs? 

Because I have a hard time naming 11 active SB winning QBs better than Lamar and Dak lol. 

Coward. The time is now. Play for regular season or play for what matters. Stand before me and beg for mercy. 

[Soggust]

1 hour ago, El Ramster said:

Coward. The time is now. Play for regular season or play for what matters. Stand before me and beg for mercy. 

Fine, you convinced me.

Russ > Stafford because I'm a playoff wins guy now.

[HerbertGOAT]

21 hours ago, Soggust said:

True, but that's why he's in the convo in the first place. We could make the argument that, sans-playoff performance Dak was statistically more impressive, just this year.

Now, I understand it's kind of a "besides that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?" take after today, but if Lamar poops the bed am I really going to take him out purely based on playoff performance? I don't think I am.

In fact, what if Josh Allen goes out and throws a few picks today and they lose to the Steelers? Am I going to pretend he's just not good anymore because we know he's hot and cold? Nah, he would still be in that tier for me.

So, if I'm not punishing others for being terrible in the playoffs, why punish Dak?

If you're just going off of this year, that makes sense, but then it also doesn't make sense for Burrow to be in that elite tier either. The bottom line is, all things considered Lamar, Mahomes, that tier of guys have MVPs, All-Pros, rings, o are inhibited by their supporting cast enough to where they don't get those accolades. Dak has managed to get none of them with a high quality supporting cast. Dak is a 5-10 guy right now. He just hasn't ever had NEXT LEVEL type of production. If he never got hurt in 2020, then yeah that was on pace to be an MVP type season and he'd be in that class. But he's just not. At this point, I think the Cowboys and Dak both need a fresh start. One thing in Dak's favor is he's always had terrible HCs. McCarthy is okay at best and Garrett was a lolcow. 

[HerbertGOAT]

Updated rankings for me:

1. Mahomes

2. Lamar

3. Josh Allen

4. Burrow

5. Herbert

6. Stroud

7. Stafford

8. Purdy

9. Dak

10. Goff

 

This is just gut feeling.

[Soggust]

2 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said:

If you're just going off of this year, that makes sense, but then it also doesn't make sense for Burrow to be in that elite tier either. 

You're making a good point, but I don't think it's the one you think it is lol.

I'm closer to moving Burrow out then Dak tbh.

 

2 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said:

The bottom line is, all things considered Lamar, Mahomes, that tier of guys have MVPs, All-Pros, rings, o are inhibited by their supporting cast enough to where they don't get those accolades. Dak has managed to get none of them with a high quality supporting cast.

I don't have Lamar in the Mahomes tier though, I have him with Allen + Burrow due to stats and lack of SBs.

But let's put him ahead of the rest of the group, because I think I can agree with Lamar firmly at #2.

Dak was an all-pro THIS YEAR, so it seems like he fits into the next category, according to your criteria.

 

2 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said:

Dak is a 5-10 guy right now. He just hasn't ever had NEXT LEVEL type of production. If he never got hurt in 2020, then yeah that was on pace to be an MVP type season and he'd be in that class. But he's just not. At this point, I think the Cowboys and Dak both need a fresh start. One thing in Dak's favor is he's always had terrible HCs. McCarthy is okay at best and Garrett was a lolcow. 

I don't understand how you can say this.

He had quite literally the best production in football this year.

Yards per game aside, I think Dak's 2023 is better than any year of Herbert's career.

I mean, if Baltimore's defense was #22 instead of #1, Dak is your MVP right now. 

I don't see why you hate his season that much, this year.

[Billy86]

I get your point, but just pointing out Dallas' defense was no.5 both in points (315 allowed vs BAL's 280) and DVOA. BAL however is no. 1 in each.

[HerbertGOAT]

1 hour ago, Soggust said:

You're making a good point, but I don't think it's the one you think it is lol.

I'm closer to moving Burrow out then Dak tbh.

Definitely based off of this year, but IMO (and many others) Burrow was already in the elite tier going into this year. Dak wasn't. That's why, though Burrow fell a bit, he's still above Dak IMO because Dak still was climbing in the rankings.

1 hour ago, Soggust said:

Dak was an all-pro THIS YEAR, so it seems like he fits into the next category, according to your criteria.

He was, but quality of year matters. It was a very down QB year, with injuries to Herbert, Burrow, and Rodgers, as well as Mahomes being off his game due to WRs. It matters.

1 hour ago, Soggust said:

I don't understand how you can say this.

He had quite literally the best production in football this year

Because this was the first year his production was truly elite. This was the first year since his rookie year he was top 5 in ANY/A, he only has 3 4000 yard seasons, only 3 30 TD seasons, and it was against a relatively weak SOS. And as previously mentioned, it was a down league year in general. 

2 hours ago, Soggust said:

Yards per game aside, I think Dak's 2023 is better than any year of Herbert's career.

I think that's a fair take. I think Herbert's 2021 and 2020 are better than any of Dak's other years.

2 hours ago, Soggust said:

I don't see why you hate his season that much, this year.

I don't hate it, at all. It was a very good season and at face value it was probably the best QB season this year. But Dak has been a 5-10 guy for pretty much his entire career for me, and off the heels of his poor showing last year he had climbing to do. If he puts up another season that's 90% of this year and either Burrow, Herbert, or Allen have a similarly mediocre year to what they did this year (Allen had a pretty good year, I was referring to a 2023 Burrow/Herbert type of year) then I have no problem with Dak in the elite tier at the cost of one of those guys. But he has to maintain that high level play, which he very well might.

[Soggust]

1 hour ago, Billy86 said:

I get your point, but just pointing out Dallas' defense was no.5 both in points (315 allowed vs BAL's 280) and DVOA. BAL however is no. 1 in each.

Haha yeah, sorry don't want to frame it like poor Dak had a tough defense, was just saying that Lamar's MVP argument is "best player on best team" and I don't know that his case is as strong if the Ravens and Cowboys have the same record/seed.

 

22 minutes ago, HerbertGOAT said:

He was, but quality of year matters. It was a very down QB year, with injuries to Herbert, Burrow, and Rodgers, as well as Mahomes being off his game due to WRs. It matters.

That makes sense, but I mean I kind of feel like if the entire league is down and he's not, there is value to him performing compared to his peers.

But I think the better take is that Dak's year - 4750totYards 38:11 td:to 105.9 rtg is an Allen / Burrow level statline imo, so regardless of others doing poorly this year, I think his year would contend in other years (even if it wouldn't necessarily win MVP as it didn't this year).

 

25 minutes ago, HerbertGOAT said:

Because this was the first year his production was truly elite. This was the first year since his rookie year he was top 5 in ANY/A, he only has 3 4000 yard seasons, only 3 30 TD seasons, and it was against a relatively weak SOS. And as previously mentioned, it was a down league year in general. 

See, this is where I'm not sure I agree. I'm just gonna do passing stats bc i'm lazy but Dak did have 6 fumbles lost in 21 which I think is I think the only obviously relevant criticism and I'm not trying to disguise stats or w/e

23: 4516yd 36td 9int 105.9rtg
21: 4449yd 37td 10int 104.2rtg (16 games)
19: 4902yd 30td 11int 99.7rtg (16 games)

These are all in the ballpark of really similar years. So, I feel like he has produced like this before. He hasn't been extremely consistent throughout his career, but neither has anyone not named Mahomes and arguably Allen depending on how you interpret his stats and if he wins this year lol.

 

32 minutes ago, HerbertGOAT said:

I don't hate it, at all. It was a very good season and at face value it was probably the best QB season this year. But Dak has been a 5-10 guy for pretty much his entire career for me, and off the heels of his poor showing last year he had climbing to do. If he puts up another season that's 90% of this year and either Burrow, Herbert, or Allen have a similarly mediocre year to what they did this year (Allen had a pretty good year, I was referring to a 2023 Burrow/Herbert type of year) then I have no problem with Dak in the elite tier at the cost of one of those guys. But he has to maintain that high level play, which he very well might.

See I think this is where we fairly disagree. I feel like you have perhaps committed an idea of Dak (based legitimately upon a body of evidence) and are a bit more judicious about committing him higher, given your perception of him. I get it and completely respect and understand your position because I feel like that's how normal people view these lists.

I'm much more fluid. Mine is basically what's your body of work to date with an emphasis on recency. The best QBs will have the best resumes, imo. Like, some people will look at it like "Burrow is clearly better than Dak at his best", but I look at it like "Right now, Dak is playing peak ball (sans playoffs) and Burrow has two great years and two bad years and really no hardware or extensive resume to fall back on other than making a SB, but I'll kinda keep them in the same tier simply because we obviously know Burrow is really good when he's healthy lol". He's basically got the Mahomes argument in my mind, but perhaps he shouldn't tbh. You might have talked me into moving him down lol.

Now, this method probably unfairly punishes guys we think are talented but just in bad spots (Trevor, Herbert, Burrow injuries etc) and probably overrates new guys who overperform (Purdy, Stroud, Love etc), but by staying fluid, over time they will move themselves in/out of contention and it will self-correct. Like, you're saying another great year from Dak and you'll move him up, but I'm thinking a bad year from Dak and I'll move him down. Because right now, he's clearly doing it better than those below him, so he deserves his flowers until he poops the bed again next season. 

Doesn't mean I'm right or you're wrong just diff ways of looking at it, imo. 

[El Ramster]

All that to write Dak sucks. That’s crazy. 

[HerbertGOAT]

11 hours ago, Soggust said:

That makes sense, but I mean I kind of feel like if the entire league is down and he's not, there is value to him performing compared to his peers.

But I think the better take is that Dak's year - 4750totYards 38:11 td:to 105.9 rtg is an Allen / Burrow level statline imo, so regardless of others doing poorly this year, I think his year would contend in other years (even if it wouldn't necessarily win MVP as it didn't this year).

I understand your point, and yes, it was a generally similar statline to that elite tier of guys.

11 hours ago, Soggust said:

See, this is where I'm not sure I agree. I'm just gonna do passing stats bc i'm lazy but Dak did have 6 fumbles lost in 21 which I think is I think the only obviously relevant criticism and I'm not trying to disguise stats or w/e

23: 4516yd 36td 9int 105.9rtg
21: 4449yd 37td 10int 104.2rtg (16 games)
19: 4902yd 30td 11int 99.7rtg (16 games)

These are all in the ballpark of really similar years. So, I feel like he has produced like this before. He hasn't been extremely consistent throughout his career, but neither has anyone not named Mahomes and arguably Allen depending on how you interpret his stats and if he wins this year lol.

The thing about 2021 is that same season, 2 QBs reached 5000 yards. 2 other QBs reached 40 TDs. Dak had a very good year, but that season other guys had GREAT years. 2019, Dak had bulk stats but was outside the top 10 in TD%, INT %, and just barely made the top 10 in passer rating.

11 hours ago, Soggust said:

See I think this is where we fairly disagree. I feel like you have perhaps committed an idea of Dak (based legitimately upon a body of evidence) and are a bit more judicious about committing him higher, given your perception of him. I get it and completely respect and understand your position because I feel like that's how normal people view these lists.

I'm much more fluid. Mine is basically what's your body of work to date with an emphasis on recency. The best QBs will have the best resumes, imo. Like, some people will look at it like "Burrow is clearly better than Dak at his best", but I look at it like "Right now, Dak is playing peak ball (sans playoffs) and Burrow has two great years and two bad years and really no hardware or extensive resume to fall back on other than making a SB, but I'll kinda keep them in the same tier simply because we obviously know Burrow is really good when he's healthy lol". He's basically got the Mahomes argument in my mind, but perhaps he shouldn't tbh. You might have talked me into moving him down lol.

Now, this method probably unfairly punishes guys we think are talented but just in bad spots (Trevor, Herbert, Burrow injuries etc) and probably overrates new guys who overperform (Purdy, Stroud, Love etc), but by staying fluid, over time they will move themselves in/out of contention and it will self-correct. Like, you're saying another great year from Dak and you'll move him up, but I'm thinking a bad year from Dak and I'll move him down. Because right now, he's clearly doing it better than those below him, so he deserves his flowers until he poops the bed again next season. 

Doesn't mean I'm right or you're wrong just diff ways of looking at it, imo. 

So you kinda have more of a "Power Rankings" way of ranking QBs, which is perfectly understandable and has merit. I'm more of a "can you keep proving it before I'm sold?" kinda guy. I feel like one good or bad year doesn't make or break a guy, so my rankings are more rigid. However, 10-15ish can be pretty fluid.

[Mdpackfan22]

18 hours ago, HerbertGOAT said:

Updated rankings for me:

1. Mahomes

2. Lamar

3. Josh Allen

4. Burrow

5. Herbert

6. Stroud

7. Stafford

8. Purdy

9. Dak

10. Goff

 

This is just gut feeling.

Herbert, Dak, Purdy and Goff over Love is quite a statement.

Herbert has played on stacked offenses and doesn't have a playoff win yet.

Dak has had an elite supporting cast his entire career and never made it past the 2nd round.

Purdy has been incredible, especially for the last pick in the draft but he's arguably the 6th best player on his own offense(Trent, Aiyuk, Deebo, CMC, Kittle)

Goff is a game manager. The second pressure gets to him he crumbles. 

 

Love in his 1st year starting is putting up better numbers than any QB in the league throwing to all rookies and 2nd year players.

[jonnguy2015]

18 minutes ago, Mdpackfan22 said:

Herbert, Dak, Purdy and Goff over Love is quite a statement.

Herbert has played on stacked offenses and doesn't have a playoff win yet.

Dak has had an elite supporting cast his entire career and never made it past the 2nd round.

Purdy has been incredible, especially for the last pick in the draft but he's arguably the 6th best player on his own offense(Trent, Aiyuk, Deebo, CMC, Kittle)

Goff is a game manager. The second pressure gets to him he crumbles. 

 

Love in his 1st year starting is putting up better numbers than any QB in the league throwing to all rookies and 2nd year players.

All of them have more to go off of to put them over Love at the moment. Herbert has put up elite numbers despite poor defense and incompetent coaching his entire career, while Love has a coach who's taken the team to multiple playoff appearances and first round byes. Dak's had a great year last Sunday aside and is a proven veteran, not elite but consistently a solidly above average QB his entire career. 

As for Purdy, how are we defining "best" between different positions? How good they are relative to their peers at their position? While CMC, Trent, and Kittle are all solidly among the best if not the best at their positions, I'd argue Purdy ranks higher among QBs than Deebo and Aiyuk do among WRs. How irreplaceable they are to their team? Aside from maybe(and that's a big maybe) Williams Purdy's probably the one player we can least afford to lose on offense. Like Love Purdy has less of a track record as "evidence" he can play at the level he has long term, but he's been better over the course of the entire season and has last year's run to the NFCCG as well.

Goff's been to a Super Bowl, and is leading one of the best offenses in the league. Love's looked amazing for most of the second half of the year, but let's not forget he looked mediocre at best for a good chunk of the season. If he keeps playing like this next year or makes a deep run this year, he'll get his flowers, and even if they get blown out by the Niners on Saturday I fully expect him to be given a huge extension this offseason. But for now let's not get caught up in the moment- we've seen plenty of QBs even this year play out of their minds for a stretch before regressing to the mean. 

Edited January 17 by jonnguy2015