QB controversey

[Rtnldave]

Okay, I've been on here with what many would call preposterous notions about many things in football. 

I've always maintained that I was saying what many were thinking but didn't want the scrutiny. So, it stands to reason that I will say what I'm sure many are thinking now.

I don't know much about Trey Lance, but just watching some of his highlights, can you honestly sit there with a straight face and claim you wouldn't want to see  Cee Dee Lamb, Cooks or Gallup downfield making plays like these guys?

https://youtu.be/6Ybn5ovIjbo?si=jGicrqIFjSrVoJ22

 

[DaBoys]

Was never a fan of Lance coming out. I do think he’s more mobile than Dak and he has an absolute cannon, but that might be it. Is he more aware than Dak? Accurate? Poised? Durable? Knowledgeable of the offense? Because if he’s not, then being more mobile and being able to throw the ball harder won’t help him. Like I said from the beginning, I wasn’t a fan of Lance coming out. At least not a fan of him being a first rounder, much less top 10. So I’m not looking to him as a savior and wouldn’t expect him to do well.

It would be nice to see what we have with him before the year is up being that Daks entering the last year of his contract. Trey Lance balling out in a few games might give us the leverage(and balls) to not extend Dak and stop the bleeding. I wouldn’t expect that to happen unless we are eliminated from the playoffs, so to me there is no controversy. 

Trey Lance rejuvenating his career in Dallas may be the best way to get back at SF though. Can you imagine a Trey Lance vs Brock Purdy NFC Championship Game? 

Edited October 11, 2023 by DaBoys

[DaBoys]

I will also add that I don’t think our offensive scheme and strategy this year is “too complex” for a young guy to handle. We are trying to play ball control offense, and protect the QB with slants, crossers, quick throws, and a strong running game. It’s just not working. But schematically it does appear we are already running an offense that limits the QB. 14th in attempts, 17th in yards, 24th in YPA, 25th in AYPA, 19th in NYPA, and 20th in ANYPA. There are only about 5 QBs in the league that are throwing the ball for less yards per attempt than ours. So yeah, I think Trey could come right in and at least do just as bad. 

[The_Slamman]

I don't see a QB "controversy."  Hell, I wish there was a QB controversy.  It's not like Lance had this Romoesque offseason where he was clearly outplaying the starting in training camp and preseason and there was reason to believe that he could play better than the starter.  I haven't seen anything from Lance that would lead me to believe that he'd be better than Dak.  Although, I have good reason to believe that Cooper Rush would not be worse than Dak.  I firmly believe that we could insert Cooper Rush in over Dak and we'd have the exact same record.  Maybe we would have had a better chance of beating AZ with Rush... tough call. 

 

I'll just say this... Jerry is a delusional POS.  Things will have to get really bad before he will be ready to move on from Dak.  Jerry sees Dak's cap hit next year and immediately thinks that the only way to get this under control is to extend Dak long term for a lot of money.  I see Dak's cap hit next year and think the only way to get this under control is to make Dak a June 1 cut.    

[Rtnldave]

11 minutes ago, The_Slamman said:

I don't see a QB "controversy."  Hell, I wish there was a QB controversy.  It's not like Lance had this Romoesque offseason where he was clearly outplaying the starting in training camp and preseason and there was reason to believe that he could play better than the starter.  I haven't seen anything from Lance that would lead me to believe that he'd be better than Dak.  Although, I have good reason to believe that Cooper Rush would not be worse than Dak.  I firmly believe that we could insert Cooper Rush in over Dak and we'd have the exact same record.  Maybe we would have had a better chance of beating AZ with Rush... tough call. 

 

I'll just say this... Jerry is a delusional POS.  Things will have to get really bad before he will be ready to move on from Dak.  Jerry sees Dak's cap hit next year and immediately thinks that the only way to get this under control is to extend Dak long term for a lot of money.  I see Dak's cap hit next year and think the only way to get this under control is to make Dak a June 1 cut.    

Well, the point to the title is that I am, or will be the first on here, to begin a QB controversy. Like I said, I know as little about Lance as you do. But after watching some film of him and the touch and accuracy I've seen on that tape, I'm willing to role the dice now.

I posted on another thread that this now "Texas Coast offense" is simply proof that Prescott is inadequate. It's designed to protect him from making mistakes! 

It only encourages a defense to be more aggressive. They dont fear him. They know he's the one thats scared. And that's how they play him. If you take away his short to middle passing game, do you think defenses fear him going deep???

Of course not, that's the entire premise of this new offense!

That makes Dak Prescott more a liability than an asset.

Do you really believe if we are lucky enough to play SF again that he will come out slinging it all over the place?

So, if we know what our starting QB isn't, and we dont know what we have in Lance, what are talking about here?

Winning enough games to make the playoffs and then getting trucked again?

[Dallas94Ware]

Lance is not ready. The guy has played too little football in his career. One season in nearly the lowest college division, and a few drives on regular season NFL.football where most of his playcalls were read option runs or a power run from the QB position?

I, like @DaBoys, was not a fan of Lance coming out of college. Too little evidence to suggest he can be a pro QB.

However, unlike my friend above, I absolutely love all of the "extras" you get with Lance. When I look for a star passer to develop, I want special traits to groom or take advantage of. Sure, you might get some damn good QBs grooming up some bland prospect who can just see things so well, process it so fast, has perfect mechanics, makes great decisions and learns to anticipate an accurate release. It happens all the time, actually. Some of the best, even.

But with guys like Lance, or Richardson last year, or Willis the year before, or Mahomes a couple years back, or going back to 2003 where I loved Ben Roethlisberger. You get these "extras" to their game that CAN make them special.

And it isn't always about the mobility or scramble factor either, though that can be part of it for sure 

Lance has the cannon and a fast, overhanded release that you can certainly put to use in a short drop back under pressure. His athletic ability is well above average for most QBs which makes him a tough sack, and he has the extra step to his game where he can definitely pick up a fair share of yardage on the ground.

He has the size that enables throwing lanes you don't have access to from the pocket with a smaller QB, and the throwing style to take advantage of them.

All of the special traits are there. And you can work with those things to make something special. Reid did it with Mahomes, who was very sloppy in college and prone to dumb mistakes, but had all of those special traits - mobility, a bigarm, fast release, gutsy play, nerves of steel - that were able to be groomed and honed into one of the best.

For my money, I see Lance potentially more like a more athletic but potentially less accurate Ben Roethlisberger. The size, the escapability, the arm, the release ... all those traits are there. Plus, Lance seems to me like he can get up the field a bit faster and make more yardage by foot, where as Ben came into the league with a huge leg up in ball placement. But that's to be expected considering the competitive levels each played at.

Will Lance be great? No clue. But he has the traits that could make him special if he's given time to work on being a QB. In SF, due to injury, he didn't get enough of that time to work and learn. And once Purdy emerged, it made no sense to keep investing time into such a project and that's how he loses a backup job to Sam Darnold. 

If he wasn't far enough along to beat out Darnold, he isn't far enough along to deserve sitting Dak for him. I'd rather Dak throw 35 picks this year and Lance learns from every pick he sees thrown, than be pushed out there and throw only 20 picks himself, but have all the bad habits develop that create a first round bust.

Fyi those bad habits? Lack of confidence, staring down the rush, holding onto the ball/gun shyness from throwing picks, rushing throws afraid to take a sack, misreading easy defenses because you're always confused and beaten by the complex ones that you start to see ghosts in the secondary that aren't there. Relying on check downs because your confidence is shot or the easy dump off takes the stress off of you. Etc these are just some of what happens that turns a great talent into a bust. And these habits are hard as hell to overcome.

So please,.no controversy.

[Dallas94Ware]

2 hours ago, DaBoys said:

I will also add that I don’t think our offensive scheme and strategy this year is “too complex” for a young guy to handle. We are trying to play ball control offense, and protect the QB with slants, crossers, quick throws, and a strong running game. It’s just not working. But schematically it does appear we are already running an offense that limits the QB. 14th in attempts, 17th in yards, 24th in YPA, 25th in AYPA, 19th in NYPA, and 20th in ANYPA. There are only about 5 QBs in the league that are throwing the ball for less yards per attempt than ours. So yeah, I think Trey could come right in and at least do just as bad. 

The system run here, at one time, was one of the most complex the sport had ever seen. Man times have changed Lol

But yes, this watered down micro-dose of a three receiver spread offense comprised of varieties of crossing patterns designed to limit the amount of reads and the amount of field a QB has to work with is actually the ideal system for young passers. It's what most systems turn themselves into when a high draft pick takes the field early on.

Then they slowly add in more route combinations, more reads, and expand the width and depth of the field as the passer gets more and more comfortable.

This simplicity was meant to help Dak and is similar to what he ran in 2016. The problem is that it requires a stout running game so that play action is a factor, else a defense can key in easily on the limited width of the field and limited combinations of route variety without fear of being caught out of position. The problem also is that Dak is no freaking rookie and this team has far from mastered the simple stuff to make this viable long term 

But yes, it does make it more plausible for a guy like Lance to catch on quick and step in if he needs to.

But I don't believe fixing this offense (and the problems were since week 1, not just the Niners game that highlighted them)lay in continuing to limit the complexity, but rather in expanding it.

I think MM over compensated quite a bit. When he wanted to tone down the over complex vertical scheme of Kellen Moore, I don't think he should have done so by running a system more suited for Bryce Young's rookie year than Dak Prescott s 7th year.

[Rtnldave]

After reading the last 2 posts, you guys aren't doing much to convince me otherwise. You all agree Dak is struggling in a way watered down offense designed for rookies. I get it's predicated on a stout running game but c'mon!

From what im reading it really comes down to this:

Is staying with Dak, knowing this is his highmark and it only goes downhill from here, less damaging than chancing playing a guy that has more athletic ability, a better arm, better accuracy, and younger but may end up shellshocked from being thrown into the mix too soon?

Well, I remind you that Aikman was thrown into, what ended up being a 1-15 team?

Got injured 3 years in a row before he completed his 1st full season, which was a SB title.

Im not saying Trey Lance is Troy Aikman, but you learn more from playing than watching.

And if we know Dak isn't getting any better, im willing to take that chance.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Rtnldave

[The_Slamman]

Dave, I’m only going to take exception to one thing… this is not Dak’s high mark.  He’s already in decline.  Other than that, you’ve convinced me.  Let’s bench Dak’s arse.  

[Rtnldave]

It begins:

 

[textaz03]

2 hours ago, Rtnldave said:

It begins:

 

He is still a cut candidate regardless of that 61 mil cap hit! DESIGNATE POST JUNE 1st CUT!! That’s a 35 mil CAP savings next year and 40 mil cap savings in 2025 I believe. There is no way I would re-sign him at this point in time, and especially if the Boys don’t make the playoffs or are an early exit with an embarrassing loss again. 

[Tony7188]

I don’t think Lance is ready yet. He’s injury prone and needs this whole year to work on his craft (instead of rehabbing ). His accuracy, poise and awareness needs fixing. If there’s anyone who could possibly come in for Dak right now, it should be Cooper Rush.

Rush has had a whole offseason to learn this system.If we are out of the playoffs later in Nov.-Dec., then I can understand starting Lance imo.
 

Next year is the year where Lance can be the starter. Dak should be cut/traded for picks. Then we can go into the draft looking for a new QB.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Tony7188

[Rtnldave]

16 minutes ago, Tony7188 said:

I don’t think Lance is ready yet. He’s injury prone and needs this whole year to work on his craft (instead of rehabbing ). His accuracy, poise and awareness needs fixing. If there’s anyone who could possibly come in for Dak right now, it should be Cooper Rush.

Rush has had a whole offseason to learn this system.If we are out of the playoffs later in Nov.-Dec., then I can understand starting Lance imo.
 

Next year is the year where Lance can be the starter. Dak should be cut/traded for picks. Then we can go into the draft looking for a new QB.

Why look for a new QB if Lance works out? Don't forget, he does of NFL game experience. Maybe the game was just too fast for him when he started. Remember Hurts? That was painful. But look at him now. 

I dont know why people are so quick to dismiss Lance based on his limited opportunities. He may come in and outclass Mehomes! (Not likely) but who can say with any certainty?

Have you seen enough from him to know? 

Tell you what, what little I did see looked a helluva lot better than what I'm seeing now.

[quiller]

Just some general true false statements

1.  We would be be 5-0 with Purdy as QB1

2.  Dak is playing at a top ten level QB in the NFL

if you said true to either of the above I have a bridge some where to sell you.

To me the main question to ask is what changed from the years 2019 -2021 to what we see against SF….  Or what we saw Dec game against Philly or playoff game against TB….    That is the question.  How do we get that offense back on the field versus what we saw against the Jets or SF

[TVScout]

8 hours ago, Rtnldave said:

It begins:

 

Video unavailable.