Bears getting Sweaty (Trading for Montez Sweat from Commanders)

[nagahide13]

22 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

 

 

 

How many players picked in the 30s are franchise altering enough to move the needle? Unless it’s a QB almost none of them are. In fact it’s more of a guarantee that player will flop then it is that they’ll be a Great NFL player. 
 

so you hedge your bet, and target a PON with a guy you already know is good in this league. Granted that could also flop, but at least you know that player is good, and has been great before versus a complete unknown. 

If I only look at the Chiefs, George Karlaftis was pick 30. Nick Bolton was 58.

If I only look at the best DEs in the NFL, TJ Watt was pick 30. Danielle Hunter was 88th and Maxx Crosby was 106.

It seems to me that about half (or more) impact players in the NFL are taken after pick 30. Only 46% of all HOF players are 1st rounders.

If a team has so little confidence with it's ability to identify talent through the draft they need to make major changes at the top.

[SteelKing728]

3 hours ago, CWood21 said:

But at the end of the day, you're not going to be successful if you don't have a QB.  It's like buying a trailer, but not having a truck to pull it.

Using that logic, why did the Packers draft Jayden Reed and Luke Musgrave when they have a bottom 5 QB throwing them the ball?

[Chiefer]

35 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

If I only look at the Chiefs, George Karlaftis was pick 30. Nick Bolton was 58.

If I only look at the best DEs in the NFL, TJ Watt was pick 30. Danielle Hunter was 88th and Maxx Crosby was 106.

It seems to me that about half (or more) impact players in the NFL are taken after pick 30. Only 46% of all HOF players are 1st rounders.

If a team has so little confidence with it's ability to identify talent through the draft they need to make major changes at the top.

Georgie K is looking good but he’s not franchise altering lmao. Nick Bolton is great, but he’s not gaining us more wins all alone.

Again you mention all these players, but compare them to the field, the draft is an absolute crapshoot I can’t even believe I have to explain that to you. Yeah Chiefs hit on Nick Bolton and Georgie K, but for every one of those players, you’re gonna also find a Clyde Edwards Helaire or a Mecole Hardman or a Skyy Moore. 
 

For every TJ Watt there’s an LJ Collier. For every Danielle Hunter there’s a Henry Anderson, for every Maxx Crosby there’s an Anthony Nelson, etc. etc.
 

Actually thanks for proving my point! Just made me look back at past drafts and the amount of great players per round is so small that even if you have a great scouting department it’s still really unlikely you draft a good player. Like you gotta be lucky to hit on a guy in a 7 round draft, I’d much rather trade for a sure thing yeesh.

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Chiefer

[nagahide13]

7 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Georgie K is looking good but he’s not franchise altering lmao. Nick Bolton is great, but he’s not gaining us more wins all alone.

Again you mention all these players, but compare them to the field, the draft is an absolute crapshoot I can’t even believe I have to explain that to you. Yeah Chiefs hit on Nick Bolton and Georgie K, but for every one of those players, you’re gonna also find a Clyde Edwards Helaire or a Mecole Hardman or a Skyy Moore. 
 

For every TJ Watt there’s an LJ Collier. For every Danielle Hunter there’s a Henry Anderson, for every Maxx Crosby there’s an Anthony Nelson, etc. etc.
 

Actually thanks for proving my point! Just made me look back at past drafts and the amount of great players per round is minuscule at best. I’d much rather trade for a sure thing yeesh.

 

Okay, so you prefer paying for free agents as opposed to building through the draft. It isn't a successful philosophy. Even your own team doesn't do it.

You asked me how many players drafted in the 30s move the needle and I provided a bunch. There are a bunch. Those picks are valuable.

Saying that a late 1st/early 2nd round pick doesn't move the needle is just not a good viewpoint.

People cannot have this argument both ways. Either Sweat is a great player and he moves the needle or he wasn't worth the pick traded.

Edited November 1, 2023 by nagahide13

[Chiefer]

Just now, nagahide13 said:

Okay, so you prefer paying for free agents as opposed to building through the draft. It isn't a successful philosophy. Even your own team doesn't do it.

I never said that, and you have no idea how the Chiefs do business. You gotta have a good mix. You got a QB on a rookie deal, go out and buy a Frank Clark on a trade to upgrade the pass rush, go sign a Sammy Watkins to catch passes. Spend money on an Anthony Hitchens to fix the LB Corp(didn’t work), bring Tyrann Mathieu to fix the secondary.

Primarily you work from the draft, and Poles still has plenty of fire power to work with he didn’t trade the farm. But you’re ignorance is showing if you don’t think the Chiefs heavily utilized the free agency and trade market to upgrade their team when necessary.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

 

[nagahide13]

This website is not set up well for quote chains. It's infuriating. It's such a huge limitation. The old format was 10000% better.

Edited November 1, 2023 by nagahide13

[nagahide13]

49 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

I never said that, and you have no idea how the Chiefs do business. You gotta have a good mix. You got a QB on a rookie deal, go out and buy a Frank Clark on a trade to upgrade the pass rush, go sign a Sammy Watkins to catch passes. Spend money on an Anthony Hitchens to fix the LB Corp(didn’t work), bring Tyrann Mathieu to fix the secondary.

Primarily you work from the draft, and Poles still has plenty of fire power to work with he didn’t trade the farm. But you’re ignorance is showing if you don’t think the Chiefs heavily utilized the free agency and trade market to upgrade their team when necessary.

You've constantly stated that a pick in the 30s doesn't move the needle and that you'd prefer a proven player. I'm trying pretty hard not to make judgement statements here even though you're being pretty unpleasant, but that doesn't show an understanding of how important the draft is and it certainly implies a lack of acknowledgement of the contract Sweat is about to get because of the leverage he now has.

Edited November 1, 2023 by nagahide13

[TecmoSuperJoe]

52 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

This website is not set up well for quote chains. It's infuriating. It's such a huge limitation. The old format was 10000% better.

Whoa. You're not talking about the thing where one cherry picks sentence after sentence into separate spacings, and replying under each one right??? 

Or do you mean just quoting different folks entire post???

Edited November 1, 2023 by TecmoSuperJoe

[Soko]

1 hour ago, nagahide13 said:

People cannot have this argument both ways. Either Sweat is a great player and he moves the needle or he wasn't worth the pick traded.

JJ Watt was an All-Pro on a team that won 2 games and landed #1 overall.

[nagahide13]

15 minutes ago, TecmoSuperJoe said:

Whoa. You're not talking about the thing where one cherry picks sentence after sentence into separate spacings, and replying under each one right??? 

Or do you mean just quoting different folks entire post???

I checked it with some addons off. When I was trying to multiquote I wasn't getting the prompt to add the quotes. Fixed it! User error, of course.

[nagahide13]

2 minutes ago, Soko said:

JJ Watt was an All-Pro on a team that won 2 games and landed #1 overall.

I am under no impression that Sweat alone will win games for Chicago. I don't understand trading premium capital for a mid player. Especially when by doing so you have forced yourself to give him what will inevitably be an elite contract. Teams "should" build through the draft first and then start looking at moves like this. I am of the opinion that you make these moves to put you over the top (ala Frank Clark and Tyrann Mathieu.) You don't build by giving up draft capital to overpay someone when you don't have a clue where your franchise is currently or is headed.

[Soko]

2 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

I am under no impression that Sweat alone will win games for Chicago. I don't understand trading premium capital for a mid player. Especially when by doing so you have forced yourself to give him what will inevitably be an elite contract. Teams "should" build through the draft first and then start looking at moves like this. I am of the opinion that you make these moves to put you over the top (ala Frank Clark and Tyrann Mathieu.) You don't build by giving up draft capital to overpay someone when you don't have a clue where your franchise is currently or is headed.

That’s fine, and there’s merit to that stance. I agree, this is generally one of those moves that you’d think a contender makes to put themselves over the top. I get that.

But I very much disagree that Sweat either A) moves the needle enough for  Chicago to win games, or B) isn’t worth the pick. Good players play on crap teams every year. HOF level guys, at times. JJ Watt entered his prime and was an All-Pro. Houston still sucked and picked #1.

I think wanting to build through the draft as a young, re-building team and forcing anyone to say Sweat either wins them games or isn’t worth the pick, are two different arguments. 

[nagahide13]

2 minutes ago, Soko said:

I think wanting to build through the draft as a young, re-building team and forcing anyone to say Sweat either wins them games or isn’t worth the pick, are two different arguments. 

Totally. Sweat doesn't win them games alone, but trading for him subjectively hurts rebuilding. It also pretty clearly suggests that they aren't actually tanking whatsoever. "Hurting the tank" isn't really a thing here. They're just hurting the rebuild with these moves.

[General Tso]

I don't see why this is a bad move? They still have 2 firsts to get possibly Williams and MHJ. Plus cap space to resign Sweat and Jaylon Johnson. In theory that's a lot of talent they can acquire on the team in one offseason.