Finale GDT - Bears/Packers

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

1 minute ago, Sugashane said:

Lol. Last time the Bears dominated GB Favre had a complete trash day and Orton threw for 104 yards - with a long of 33.

If there is one thing to hold against Poles, more than the Claypool trade or anything else IMO, is that he didn't force the Bears offense to really give a full Fields evaluation. Weak C, two years of relying on rookie mid-round WRs to be the WR3, and while Fields threw the ball about 28 times per game there were SO many throws that were either behind the LOS its hard to see how much he may have improved as a passer. I mean his completion percentage when up by 1% while his attempts jumped but Getsy's playcalling sure as hell made it hard to evaluate.

Warren and Poles need to do a deep eval (should have already started, or at least had someone compiling everything to) on Fields from the last two years to see what progress he made or where he did not progress as hoped.

Getsy needs tossed out immediately regardless of what else happens.

Agree completely,  while the team had a lot of needs they (aside from getting first pick) really wasted last year from an evaluation point of view.  A lot of people said the same thing: that the most important thing was to know whether you had a QB or not.  Somehow after two years there are equally vocal camps in either direction, both honestly making good points.  For all the love Poles gets for a very good trade the lack of urgency on offense has always been puzzling.  I would love to know what the plan was that they sold George on. Could it really be "we're going to suck for quite a while,  we'll flop around on offense until we have to make a decision on the QB, and then after 3 years or so we'll really start to cook?" 

Still hoping they clean house as I don't think Justin is good enough, and I don't see that this coaching staff has anything they do better than the rest of the division, but fully expecting them to do some halfway solutions like keep Flus, toss Getsy and Fields, and then hope they luck into a good rookie QB.  Third times the charm I guess?

[dll2000]

23 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Im not listening to it, so I dont know any specifics being said, but in general, anyone making any decision on yesterdays game is doing so purely on fan emotion. That is hyperfuled by Packer hate. 

Our defense was missing its (now) 2nd best player who has consistently shown that he completely changes that entire side of the ball. And regardless of your feelings on him, we were also missing the Starting Center, and it was a crazy drop in effectiveness (maybe not talent) to the backup.

This team has a bottom 10 roster and still got 7 wins. You play good and bad teams every year, so saying "we only beat the bad ones" is a hilarious complaint. And guess what, last year we didnt beat those Bad Teams. I still think we are closer to Bottom 5 roster than 10, but before we added Sweat (and our CB got a spark lit when no one wanted him at the deadline, plus a few other defenders finally clicked) we were for sure a Bottom 5 Roster.

Some of you hid it well for a while, but now that the offseason is here (and you are losing your minds over the Packers) you are back to thinking you can completely transform an entire roster in one offseason. Youre back in Madden Mode which is completely unrealistic.

I don’t think that was a bottom 10 roster.  

[AZBearsFan]

7 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

If there is one thing to hold against Poles, more than the Claypool trade or anything else IMO, is that he didn't force the Bears offense to really give a full Fields evaluation.

This is my single biggest complaint. You couldn’t come out of this year not knowing whether Justin can be the guy, but because of how Getsy called the offense I don’t think we can really know if Fields can do some of the things he wasn’t being asked to do more or if Getsy is even more incompetent than we think.

Today specific examples - I mean, we couldn’t block their pass rush in the 1st half and Getsy’s response was to just stop passing in the 3rd quarter. What the **** is that?  They’re beating your (3rd string) IOL almost immediately. Anything quick in your playbook?

All your talk all season about staying on schedule and there’s not a single 4-5 yard pass in your playbook on first down or on 2nd and long after your slammed run up the middle didn’t get much on 1st down? We were in 3rd and 6+ seven times and the only conversion was on the slant to Moore that was upheld on challenge. Wouldn’t want to try that concept again at any point though. We had 2nd and 9 or longer 5 times yesterday, and ran on 3 of them.

This was crazy to me: There were 9 occasions yesterday where we got 4+ yards on 1st down but didn’t get an immediate first down. On those 9 series, we eventually got a 1st down seven times. The two times we didn’t were the one with Trent Taylor blocking Gary 2nd down (which, LOL) before a 3rd down sack with immediate pressure up the middle, and then in the 4Q with a hold on 2nd down followed by a sack with immediate pressure up the middle making it 3rd and 22 (on which we ran an ineffective bubble screen which, again, LOL). When we weren’t behind the sticks we were pretty damn efficient on offense. So where are the slants? The stop routes? The quick hits that aren’t bubble screens? You wanna stay ahead of the chains then scheme to stay ahead of the chains. 

[StLunatic88]

19 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I don’t think that was a bottom 10 roster.  

Id love to see a list of who has a worse roster, 1-53 than us, because its hard to find 7 teams much less 10 of them

We have Maybe 3 players on Offense who would start on a Playoff team, possibly 2/3 more who would contribute. 

Defense is alittle better, Sweat and JJ for sure would start, and the LBs are good enough. I believe both Kyler and Brisker would be contributors, but other than those guys we have rotational guys at best on a Playoff defense (that includes Dexter who I love, but on a good Defense he would still be making his way into real PT)

This was pitched as a 3 year project for a reason. Because they were honest and realistic on how long it would take. They have told you from the beginning, most just dont want to listen (or arent serious about building a sustained roster)

Edited January 8 by StLunatic88

[Sugashane]

33 minutes ago, BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW said:

Agree completely,  while the team had a lot of needs they (aside from getting first pick) really wasted last year from an evaluation point of view.  A lot of people said the same thing: that the most important thing was to know whether you had a QB or not.  Somehow after two years there are equally vocal camps in either direction, both honestly making good points.  For all the love Poles gets for a very good trade the lack of urgency on offense has always been puzzling.  I would love to know what the plan was that they sold George on. Could it really be "we're going to suck for quite a while,  we'll flop around on offense until we have to make a decision on the QB, and then after 3 years or so we'll really start to cook?" 

Still hoping they clean house as I don't think Justin is good enough, and I don't see that this coaching staff has anything they do better than the rest of the division, but fully expecting them to do some halfway solutions like keep Flus, toss Getsy and Fields, and then hope they luck into a good rookie QB.  Third times the charm I guess?

Yep. The primary goal for me was to get a full evaluation for Fields, and I ended in the same exact freaking spot as I was last year, shrugging and saying whatever. I will toot my own depressing horn on being right about a few predictions though.

 

On 9/4/2023 at 4:28 PM, Sugashane said:

 

3. Chicago Bears  7-10 (3-3) (Likely the only record prediction I got right but whatever)

#1 Overall Draft Pick: Carolina Panthers (WOOT)

Most Valuable Player:QB Josh Allen  (Nope)

Offensive Player of the Year: QB Jalen Hurts (Had a shot and **** the bed the last quarter of the season)

Defensive Player of the Year: DL Chris Jones (Nope, def took a step back)

Offensive Rookie of the Year: QB CJ Stroud (Nailed it)

Defensive Rookie of the Year: EDGE Will Anderson (yep, HOU doubles down on ROTY awards) (I have Carter but Will definitely has closed the gap and will be 2nd in voting IMO)

Comeback Player of the Year: S Damar Havlin (Its Hamlin but I'd actually give it to Flacco)

Coach of the Year: HC Kyle Shanahan (Unlikely)

***Skipping Playoff Predictions since they haven't happened yet

 

 

I'll also say I think CHI doesn't get the ideal proof that Fields is or is not the franchise QB to back the Brinks truck up for. In typical Bears fashion there will likely be stretches of near-elite play followed by Tebow-like passing, and the running game again is the key factor for the offense to run. Fields definitely is more consistent than last year but the questions become more about if Fields was elevated by the supporting cast or holding the supporting cast back. (Definitely true on the first, he was more consistent overall)

Moore has a banger of a season,

Herbert leads the team in rushing and rushes for just over 1100 yards (he absolutely would have had he not hurt himself going after the short pass)

there are still questions whether Mooney or Claypool should get the extension, (Wrong!)

and Kmet makes me look like a fool for being a better receiver than I thought he could have been. (I take personal credit for jinxing his failures and making him a success).

Jenkins continues the injury woes, (Yup)

Jones shows spurts of elite play with getting manhandled in the same game, (He had some great reps and some terrible ones in the same drive, but was more consistent that I gave credit for here)

Whitehair is done, Patrick finds a way to get benched without injury. (Double yep)

Defense is competent but still has enough miscues that we wonder if Eberflus and Williams are as good on the defensive side as they were supposed to be, (I was right but with Williams out it improved a lot. At minimum a half yup here)

but Yannick has another really good season as a passrusher while being a liability vs the run (and one of the issues is that he plays way too many snaps while being such a liability), - (Wrong AF on the passrushing, was definitely trash vs the run. )

Edmunds is a beast, (Yep)

Edwards is solid but not as good has he has been recently without the ridiculous DL play he has had, (Debatable, he outplayed what I expected but did mostly after Sweat was added I believe)

Johnson plays 11 games causing more concerns for his durability and contract problem, (Did miss 3 games instead of 6, and does have injury concerns still - BUT played at an elite level too)

and Sanborn gets on the field more than a SAM normally would and has some of us clamoring for him to take Edwards' spot for 2024. (He did make the field for 39% of the defensive snaps but I'm still counting this as a miss)

Ejax plays well enough some want him to stay one more year and the others vehemently are against it. (Definitely did not, and I think almost all of us are vehemently against him coming back without a DRASTIC pay cut)

^^^ Sad cheers?

 

47 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

This is my single biggest complaint. You couldn’t come out of this year not knowing whether Justin can be the guy, but because of how Getsy called the offense I don’t think we can really know if Fields can do some of the things he wasn’t being asked to do more or if Getsy is even more incompetent than we think.

Today specific examples - I mean, we couldn’t block their pass rush in the 1st half and Getsy’s response was to just stop passing in the 3rd quarter. What the **** is that?  They’re beating your (3rd string) IOL almost immediately. Anything quick in your playbook?

All your talk all season about staying on schedule and there’s not a single 4-5 yard pass in your playbook on first down or on 2nd and long after your slammed run up the middle didn’t get much on 1st down? We were in 3rd and 6+ seven times and the only conversion was on the slant to Moore that was upheld on challenge. Wouldn’t want to try that concept again at any point though. We had 2nd and 9 or longer 5 times yesterday, and ran on 3 of them.

This was crazy to me: There were 9 occasions yesterday where we got 4+ yards on 1st down but didn’t get an immediate first down. On those 9 series, we eventually got a 1st down seven times. The two times we didn’t were the one with Trent Taylor blocking Gary 2nd down (which, LOL) before a 3rd down sack with immediate pressure up the middle, and then in the 4Q with a hold on 2nd down followed by a sack with immediate pressure up the middle making it 3rd and 22 (on which we ran an ineffective bubble screen which, again, LOL). When we weren’t behind the sticks we were pretty damn efficient on offense. So where are the slants? The stop routes? The quick hits that aren’t bubble screens? You wanna stay ahead of the chains then scheme to stay ahead of the chains. 

This is also something that confounds me. So why did nothing change? Even if going to Janocko wasn't an improvement if it potentially allowed for a better grasp of Fields' ability to be evaluated then why not make the move? Was Eberflus satisfied with what Getsy was doing? Was he wanting to make the change but Poles axed the move? Was evaluating Fields really a top concern for the staff at all or do they already believe they know enough from 2022 already? We won't get any clear answers to these questions but I just can't understand why. It's like Loggains. Could the Bears do worse? Absolutely. Does that mean anyone 'misses' the time with Loggains running the offense in a non-ironic manner? No. Just seemed like a waste.

Bears specialize in screens, then the game where they NEED to get the ball out as fast as possible they get away from it. lol.  Honestly I thought with how GB was loading the LOS there would be more attempts for Kmet or quick throws like usual. I don't think the passing was to the right that much either? With the IOL leaking like a sieve you would imagine there would have been more times where you double the EMLOS and get Fields on the outside as quick as possible too.

I can't even be mad at Taylor either, you know he was aware he was going to get blown up and stood no chance. Might as well have signed Gould to be a blocker if you're putting him up against Gary. lol.

[AZBearsFan]

50 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

This was pitched as a 3 year project for a reason. Because they were honest and realistic on how long it would take. They have told you from the beginning, most just dont want to listen (or arent serious about building a sustained roster)

Part of that 3 years is letting young guys play too. Dexter has played at a starter level most of the past 2 months because he’s been allowed to get the reps. Same for Stevenson. Same for Wright.

People in our fandom by and large expect drafted guys to all step in as dudes right away and that’s rarely the case, even with highly drafted guys. Hell, if we end up with MHJ (probably the cleanest WR prospect in the past 10 years) the expectation shouldn’t be that he’s a 1000-yard receiver as a rookie, but it would be without question. What will people expect from Williams if we go that route? Imagine he has Trevor Lawrence’s rookie year here in 2024. There will be torches out quickly, especially if JF plays well elsewhere in that scenario. 

[AZBearsFan]

5 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

This is also something that confounds me. So why did nothing change? Even if going to Janocko wasn't an improvement if it potentially allowed for a better grasp of Fields' ability to be evaluated then why not make the move? Was Eberflus satisfied with what Getsy was doing? Was he wanting to make the change but Poles axed the move? Was evaluating Fields really a top concern for the staff at all or do they already believe they know enough from 2022 already? We won't get any clear answers to these questions but I just can't understand why. It's like Loggains. Could the Bears do worse? Absolutely. Does that mean anyone 'misses' the time with Loggains running the offense in a non-ironic manner? No. Just seemed like a waste.

Bears specialize in screens, then the game where they NEED to get the ball out as fast as possible they get away from it. lol.  Honestly I thought with how GB was loading the LOS there would be more attempts for Kmet or quick throws like usual. I don't think the passing was to the right that much either? With the IOL leaking like a sieve you would imagine there would have been more times where you double the EMLOS and get Fields on the outside as quick as possible too.

I can't even be mad at Taylor either, you know he was aware he was going to get blown up and stood no chance. Might as well have signed Gould to be a blocker if you're putting him up against Gary. lol.

Exactly. Also, we have a track team at WR outside of ESB and also at QB. Any consideration of some misdirection? Why not use the tools you have to your advantage? 

[StLunatic88]

7 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

This is also something that confounds me. So why did nothing change? Even if going to Janocko wasn't an improvement if it potentially allowed for a better grasp of Fields' ability to be evaluated then why not make the move? Was Eberflus satisfied with what Getsy was doing? Was he wanting to make the change but Poles axed the move?

pssssst (they were told there were no more staff moves allowed in season after the non-football related stuff) 

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

pssssst (they were told there were no more staff moves allowed in season after the non-football related stuff) 

Pssssst.... it doesn't answer the question "why" though, which was what you quoted. lol

It seems the staff basically told Fields to "deal with it" with a known incompetent OC. Was it because it was Eberflus' staff hire and Poles told him to deal with it? Was it so Warren could evaluate what moves Poles made so he could see if Poles could be trusted with future hires? Etc.

[dll2000]

One thing that really, really pissed me off about game itself I forgot to mention.

When Packers had ball on their own goal line and we played a really soft zone defense and gave them an easy 8 yard uncontested TE pass to Musgrave it was I believe.  

That was inexcusable.  Especially with way game was going.   You needed to be aggressive there.

 That one had me fuming in real time.  

[beardown3231]

18 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Pssssst.... it doesn't answer the question "why" though, which was what you quoted. lol

It seems the staff basically told Fields to "deal with it" with a known incompetent OC. Was it because it was Eberflus' staff hire and Poles told him to deal with it? Was it so Warren could evaluate what moves Poles made so he could see if Poles could be trusted with future hires? Etc.

One more random termination and George would've flipped his **** because hE iS jEaLoUs oF tHe rOoNeYs' cOnTiNuIty

[dll2000]

13 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

One more random termination and George would've flipped his **** because hE iS jEaLoUs oF tHe rOoNeYs' cOnTiNuIty

He should be jealous.  The Steelers org. runs rings around Bears org.  

Honestly, I hate blasting George because by all accounts he is a genuinely nice guy.

But he (seems) comparable to a spoiled prince who spent his days riding horses and womanizing before he became king.

His lack of ability to know and do basic things and total reliance on other people to run his family business is astounding to me.

I wouldn't be shocked if one day people he hires rob him blind.  Like these football players who hire crooked agents.

You do want continuity.  A functioning machinelike program is the goal for any level of football including NFL.

But you in order to have continuity there has to be some success at some point.

 

Edited January 8 by dll2000

[beardown3231]

10 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

He should be jealous.  The Steelers org. runs rings around Bears org.  

Honestly, I hate blasting George because by all accounts he is a genuinely nice guy.

But he (seems) comparable to a spoiled prince who spent his days riding horses and womanizing before he became king.

His lack of ability to know and do basic things and total reliance on other people to run his family business is astounding to me.

I wouldn't be shocked if one day people he hires rob him blind.  Like these football players who hire crooked agents.

You do want continuity.  A functioning machinelike program is the goal for any level of football including NFL.

But you in order to have continuity there has to be some success at some point.

 

Born on 3rd base and hasn't even made it the 90 feet to home yet

[dll2000]

3 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Id love to see a list of who has a worse roster, 1-53 than us, because its hard to find 7 teams much less 10 of them

We have Maybe 3 players on Offense who would start on a Playoff team, possibly 2/3 more who would contribute. 

Defense is alittle better, Sweat and JJ for sure would start, and the LBs are good enough. I believe both Kyler and Brisker would be contributors, but other than those guys we have rotational guys at best on a Playoff defense (that includes Dexter who I love, but on a good Defense he would still be making his way into real PT)

This was pitched as a 3 year project for a reason. Because they were honest and realistic on how long it would take. They have told you from the beginning, most just dont want to listen (or arent serious about building a sustained roster)

Nobody here was saying we had worst roster in league this past offseason.   If you were saying that please show me. 

It got better (mostly on paper) when we signed Yannick and really took a step up when we traded for Sweat who uplifted play of every one.

Were we top 3rd pure roster?  No way.  

Were we bottom of league in player talent across board?  No way either.   In a parody driven league we were in middles with a lot of teams in 2023.   In 2022 we were awful.  Two different rosters.  

The offense (which is largely driven by QB position in NFL) underperformed.  Underachieved.   They had some good games and good quarters.

But overall results speak for themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sugashane]

23 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Nobody here was saying we had worst roster in league this past offseason.   If you were saying that please show me. 

It got better (mostly on paper) when we signed Yannick and really took a step up when we traded for Sweat who uplifted play of every one.

Were we top 3rd pure roster?  No way.  

Were we bottom of league in player talent across board?  No way either.   In a parody driven league we were in middles with a lot of teams in 2023.   In 2022 we were awful.  Two different rosters.  

The offense (which is largely driven by QB position in NFL) underperformed.  Underachieved.   They had some good games and good quarters.

But overall results speak for themselves.

 

Looking at it I don't see a bottom 10 roster for starters. No one here is actually looking at players 40-53 on a depth chart and cross evaluating them either, so it isn't even worth debating that.

 

QB - Is he a bottom 10 starter? If so why TF is there even a conversation about keeping him?

RB- Bears do a RBC and have Herbert/Johnson as the two primaries and Foreman as the RB3. There isn't a CMC or Henry but that isn't a bottom 10 group in the league at all. Hell you have two legitimate starters even if neither is a star.

FB - Do they count?

WR - Moore is a stud, Mooney hasn't been able to connect with Fields, WR3 is literally nothing but speed and perceived potential. I still don't think it equates to a bottom 10 WR corps but if so it would be right at the cusp. When Moore is out, that would be a major blow but taking WR1 away from any corps will do that.

TE- Kmet is one of the better TEs in the league. Tonyan sucked and was way worse than I had hoped. Again, I don't think a bottom 10 group.

LT - Jones isn't a bottom 10 starting LT. He isn't dominant by any means but is likely around league average as a starter.

LG - Jenkins is a stud usually. He will have some poor games but he played REALLY well against a number of really good DTs.

C- Ok, definitely bottom 10, hell bottom 4 with Whitehair and Patrick both potentially. Won't argue it at all.

RG - Davis is likely in the bottom 10 of starting RGs. Started late with personal stuff, hadf a streak where he looked solid, then fell right off. Looks like a big swing and a miss.

RT - Wright absolutely isn't a bottom 10 RT.

DE - Sweat is a stud. Ngakoue fell the hell off, sucks it had to happen with CHI but it is what it is. Walker was a ghost early but came on later. Prior to Sweat I'd say bottom 10 but post-Sweat no I wouldn't. Definitely want an upgrade opposite of Sweat though. Depth sucked for sure.

DT - Dexter came on strong, Jones started slow and improved, Billings does one thing well but generally does it REALLY well. Pickens needs time to develop (as most expected). I can't say this is a bottom 10 group. Hell the defense finished 1st/2nd in numerous metrics vs the run.

LBs- Edmunds, Edwards, and Sanborn is a damn solid trio. No one can sanely make the case they're a bottom 10 group.

CB - Johnson is lockdown and was basically all year, Godon and Stevenson both were up and down but improved when the passrush got there. Re-sign Johnson and you have a solid core to build around for the DBs.

S - EJax is done and Brisker is hot/cold like Jay was. I can see the argument for them being bottom 10 but if so again it is right at the cusp of being in the next category. Brisker annoys the **** out of me but when he is on he's on.

ST - Santos is a stud, Gill is probably a bottom 10 punter, there is never a LS issue, returners were pretty poor overall. Depending on how you value each your grades can vary, so if you want to argue a bottom 10 group here I won't argue but would disagree. I value kicker more than punters and LS, and PRs over KRs.