Who's the second greatest QB of all time behind Brady?

[Soggust]

12 hours ago, El Ramster said:

It’s Manning. I’ll argue putting manning at 1. He would have thrived anywhere. He was the system. Of course he didn’t have the rings. But he’s the best pure cerebral QB of all time. There was no ruining Manning.. Imagine if Brady and Manning would have swap roles? Maybe there is no Brady. Who knows. P manning all day erry day. 

I swear to god every post you make is either a 0/10 or a 15/10 (I'm on a 0-6/10 scale, so not talking trash).

I'm not sure if I'm ready to ignore 7 rings and jump 100% on board with you, but I really love the spicyness of this take.

IMO MVPs are the best award you can win legacy-wise and 5 MVPs is not only a really strong case for #2, but I think Peyton over Brady is an underrated take that usually gets laughed out of the room because of team success, but probably has more validity than we are willing to admit.

[minutemancl]

It's already Mahomes, IMO. 

[MaddHatter]

14 hours ago, El Ramster said:

Boy you weren’t even alive to see him play. Outta here with that. Guy wouldn’t even start in a HS team at this moment. Only goats in this era. 

Bruh... GTFOH with that sheet.  This isn't about who the best QB is today - it's the greatest of all-time... ALL-TIME... meaning we have to take what they accomplished and how they played in the context of their time period against their peers.  Has the game evolved? absolutely! Have humans become bigger/faster/stronger? absolutely!  If we're looking at who the best is in the latest/greatest stats then it'll always be a case of who played most recently (and I'm sure you'd be arguing for Patty Mahomie).

Otto played for 10 years, went to 10 championship games, won 7 championships, led the league in yards 5 times, completion percentage 4 times, TD% two times, Y/A 4 times, AY/A 4 times, Y/C 4 times, Y/G 5 times, PSR 5 times, Y/A+ 5 times, AY/A+ 5 times, Rate+ 5 times, and was a 3x League MVP and 8x All-Pro.

We don't set limits on dates when discussing "All-Time" - if you wanna discuss who the greatest QB in the last 30 years was, start a new thread

[lancerman]

3 hours ago, rob_shadows said:

Right now it's Payton but Mahomes is almost certainly going to surpass him and may even challenge Brady before it's all said and done.

PEYTON NOT PAYTON 

AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

[El Ramster]

3 hours ago, MaddHatter said:

Bruh... GTFOH with that sheet.  This isn't about who the best QB is today - it's the greatest of all-time... ALL-TIME... meaning we have to take what they accomplished and how they played in the context of their time period against their peers.  Has the game evolved? absolutely! Have humans become bigger/faster/stronger? absolutely!  If we're looking at who the best is in the latest/greatest stats then it'll always be a case of who played most recently (and I'm sure you'd be arguing for Patty Mahomie).

Otto played for 10 years, went to 10 championship games, won 7 championships, led the league in yards 5 times, completion percentage 4 times, TD% two times, Y/A 4 times, AY/A 4 times, Y/C 4 times, Y/G 5 times, PSR 5 times, Y/A+ 5 times, AY/A+ 5 times, Rate+ 5 times, and was a 3x League MVP and 8x All-Pro.

We don't set limits on dates when discussing "All-Time" - if you wanna discuss who the greatest QB in the last 30 years was, start a new thread

The game was so as back then it doesn’t count. Playing against plumbers does not impress me. Founding fathers cool, GOAT means they can translate and plate in any era. Now be a good boy! 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 hours ago, MaddHatter said:

Bruh... GTFOH with that sheet.  This isn't about who the best QB is today - it's the greatest of all-time... ALL-TIME... meaning we have to take what they accomplished and how they played in the context of their time period against their peers.  Has the game evolved? absolutely! Have humans become bigger/faster/stronger? absolutely!  If we're looking at who the best is in the latest/greatest stats then it'll always be a case of who played most recently (and I'm sure you'd be arguing for Patty Mahomie).

Otto played for 10 years, went to 10 championship games, won 7 championships, led the league in yards 5 times, completion percentage 4 times, TD% two times, Y/A 4 times, AY/A 4 times, Y/C 4 times, Y/G 5 times, PSR 5 times, Y/A+ 5 times, AY/A+ 5 times, Rate+ 5 times, and was a 3x League MVP and 8x All-Pro.

We don't set limits on dates when discussing "All-Time" - if you wanna discuss who the greatest QB in the last 30 years was, start a new thread

This is why I really hate all-time arguments. Is his accomplishments more impressive than what Mahomes is doing or Manning did, relative to who they're playing against?

Otto Graham playing against Jimmy the carpenter is more impressive than what Mahomes is doing against the best athletes we've ever seen? I don't believe so for a second, but this is why I hate all-time arguments. There's no realistic way to compare guys who play now to guys in the 1940's or whatever it is.

[MaddHatter]

7 minutes ago, El Ramster said:

The game was so as back then it doesn’t count. Playing against plumbers does not impress me. Founding fathers cool, GOAT means they can translate and plate in any era. Now be a good boy! 

Then just set your memory on a 10-yr loop and ignore anything older than the last decade.  Joe, Jordan, Ruth - all garbage compared to Mahomes, Bron, Ohtani

[El Ramster]

6 hours ago, Soggust said:

I swear to god every post you make is either a 0/10 or a 15/10 (I'm on a 0-6/10 scale, so not talking trash).

I'm not sure if I'm ready to ignore 7 rings and jump 100% on board with you, but I really love the spicyness of this take.

IMO MVPs are the best award you can win legacy-wise and 5 MVPs is not only a really strong case for #2, but I think Peyton over Brady is an underrated take that usually gets laughed out of the room because of team success, but probably has more validity than we are willing to admit.

So we either got that fire or we don’t. I’m basically a sports host. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 minutes ago, MaddHatter said:

Then just set your memory on a 10-yr loop and ignore anything older than the last decade.  Joe, Jordan, Ruth - all garbage compared to Mahomes, Bron, Ohtani

There is a common argument in baseball that Ohtani and guys like Mike Trout are better than Babe Ruth. Certainly Ohtani is. And there's also a lot of people who think LeBron is better than Jordan, but atleast Jordan played in a modern era unlike guys like Otto Graham.

[El Ramster]

2 minutes ago, MaddHatter said:

Then just set your memory on a 10-yr loop and ignore anything older than the last decade.  Joe, Jordan, Ruth - all garbage compared to Mahomes, Bron, Ohtani

Jordan could play in any era. I doubt Babe could play in this era. He was a fat drunk smashing 50-60 MPH fast balls right down the middle. Yeah, You drop Otahni off in the 40s my man is avg 200 HRs a season. 

[MaddHatter]

5 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

There is a common argument in baseball that Ohtani and guys like Mike Trout are better than Babe Ruth. Certainly Ohtani is. And there's also a lot of people who think LeBron is better than Jordan, but atleast Jordan played in a modern era unlike guys like Otto Graham.

It's still an argument.... and that's my point.  Otto doesn't even get mentioned in the poll and people immediately want to discount him because they never "saw him play".   You don't throw the players of the past out completely because it was a different era.  If you put Bron in Jordan's time, he'd cry about all the fouls he wasn't getting called.  If you put Brady in Otto's time, he doesn't last 5 years b/c of the hits he'd endure (same with the 70's).  Graham was the Mahomes/Brady/Montana of his era and threw to receivers who were getting manhandled through the route/catch but because the competition wasn't "as talented" his accomplishments don't count.  News flash - he played at the highest level against the greatest competition the world could produce.  

Edited January 26 by MaddHatter

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, MaddHatter said:

It's still an argument.... and that's my point.  Otto doesn't even get mentioned in the poll and people immediately want to discount him because they never "saw him play".   You don't throw the players of the past out completely because it was a different era.  If you put Bron in Jordan's time, he'd cry about all the fouls he wasn't getting called.  If you put Brady in Otto's time, he doesn't last 5 years b/c of the hits he'd endure (same with the 70's).  Graham was the Lamar Jackson of his era and threw to receivers who were getting manhandled through the route/catch but because the competition wasn't "as talented" his accomplishments don't count.  News flash - he played at the highest level against the greatest competition the world could produce.  

That's fine and all, but there's still validity to the other side of it where if Otto Graham was the Lamar Jackson of his time playing against dudes smoking 3 packs of cigs per day then the Lamar Jackson of today's age doing it against the highest performing athletes doing it full-time should be even more impressive, which then diminishes Graham's accomplishments.

I think ultimately it's just better to weigh guys in their own eras, or at least within 30 year timeframe. No sense in comparing Lamar Jackson to Otto Graham, or LeBron James to Kareem or Jerry West.

[MaddHatter]

25 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

That's fine and all, but there's still validity to the other side of it where if Otto Graham was the Lamar Jackson of his time playing against dudes smoking 3 packs of cigs per day then the Lamar Jackson of today's age doing it against the highest performing athletes doing it full-time should be even more impressive, which then diminishes Graham's accomplishments.

I think ultimately it's just better to weigh guys in their own eras, or at least within 30 year timeframe. No sense in comparing Lamar Jackson to Otto Graham, or LeBron James to Kareem or Jerry West.

If we are incapable of comparing across generations then we shouldn't participate in All-Time polls - but I at least appreciate people acknowledging their bias and calling it what it is.  In 50 years when kids are calling Mahomes and Brady scrubs, I'll be having the same debate, haha

[El Ramster]

2 minutes ago, MaddHatter said:

If we are incapable of comparing across generations then we shouldn't participate in All-Time polls - but I at least appreciate people acknowledging their bias and calling it what it is.  In 50 years when kids are calling Mahomes and Brady scrubs, I'll be having the same debate, haha

I was watching an old video the other day. bill Russell was garbage defending wilt. He never jumped, he tried to steal passes. Like it was ugly man. But he’s touted as an elite defender because it’s what we’ve been fed. Look at the fluidity, handling and the speed in today’s NBA. I’m all about praising and cherishing legends! Without them modern sports wouldn’t be anything the beast it is today. But let’s not act like these guys were crucified on the cross and made sacrifices. They were paid well, they earned roles and were legit famous people. They were admired and loved and at that time hated.. But yeah, I can’t imagine dropping off Ja Morant in that era. He’ll be destroying those guys. The skill gap is so huge. Joakim Noah would be spoken like a god in that era. 
 

 

just so different… 

[MaddHatter]

You talk about "dropping guys off in that era" but seem to be ignoring the coaching, nutrition, training, and support they would be receiving.  When Otto came back for his 10th year, he unretired b/c the Browns made him the highest player in the league at $25k a year.  Even with inflation and everything else, that's still ONLY $250k in today's money.  He set records that stood for 40+ years despite being a "part-time player".  He was also a great enough athlete that he is one of only two people in US History to win a championship in 2 of the 4 major US Sports (basketball and football).  You can call Brady the GOAT all you want, and I'm happy to have a legit debate even if I don't necessarily disagree (I have him as #1 also) but to not even list Graham as an option in a poll of 10+ people is asinine.  You really think a career backup who couldn't beat out Griese or Drew Henson was going to even be in the Pros, let alone be a 7x Champion in a 10yr span and make the Championship ever year of his career 80 years ago?  Nah, Brady would have been slinging beers or driving nails like most adult males during that post-war Era.  

Edited January 26 by MaddHatter