DoleINGout Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 43 minutes ago, MaddHatter said: Disagree completely- he won’t sniff the HOF at any point in the next 40 years I disagree with your disagreement 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddHatter Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 4 minutes ago, DoleINGout said: I disagree with your disagreement Beyond playing nearly 20yrs and accumulating bulk stats in a pass happy era, what’s his case? He was a pro bowler 50% of his career but never made an AP All Pro team or an MVP and I would argue was never a Top 5 QB and in the playoffs he was 5-6 with a 14:10 TD:INT ratio and an 84.2 PSR. His best playoff run came in one of his worst years as a starter. Typically when you have a guy who gets in with bulk stats (Emmitt Smith), you have a guy who was elite for a decent chunk of his career as well. Smith led the league in yards and TDs most of the early 90s when they won 3 super bowls and was a crucial factor in that run. He had the “fame”, the elite years, and the bulk stats. Rivers only has the bulk stats 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 14 minutes ago, MaddHatter said: Beyond playing nearly 20yrs and accumulating bulk stats in a pass happy era, what’s his case? He was a pro bowler 50% of his career but never made an AP All Pro team or an MVP and I would argue was never a Top 5 QB and in the playoffs he was 5-6 with a 14:10 TD:INT ratio and an 84.2 PSR. His best playoff run came in one of his worst years as a starter. Typically when you have a guy who gets in with bulk stats (Emmitt Smith), you have a guy who was elite for a decent chunk of his career as well. Smith led the league in yards and TDs most of the early 90s when they won 3 super bowls and was a crucial factor in that run. He had the “fame”, the elite years, and the bulk stats. Rivers only has the bulk stats Early in Rivers career he was a pedestrian QB surrounded by great talent on a team that underachieved. After about three or four years as the starter Rivers got better and better each year and was one of the elite quarterbacks. The Chargers lost in the playoffs annually I believe because they were cheaply managed, injury riddled, cursed to be in the more competitive conference with Pats/Colts/Steelers/Ravens, and rarely were they constructed to have a balanced, complementary team despite some talented individuals that put up eye popping stats any given year, such as Igor Olshansky, Jamal Williams, Antonio Cromartie, Shawne Merriman, Shaun Phillips, Quenten Jammer, Luis Castilo, Antonio Gates, Vincent Jackson, and Eric Weddle. The team relied heavily on the passing offense after LaDainian Tomlinson’s peak which was early in Rivers’ career. Despite the ChargIRs being one dimensional and flawed, Rivers emerge for a majority of his career as a fairly clutch and prolific passer, team leader, and if nothing else a consistent regular season winner. As an individual at the QB position Rivers is one of the greats historically, as well. The imbalance between the offense and defense was stark in the twilight of his career before the team relocated. Edited February 4 by DoleINGout 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelersfan43 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 4 minutes ago, DoleINGout said: Early in Rivers career he was a pedestrian QB surrounded by great talent on a team that underachieved. After about three or four years as the starter Rivers got better and better each year and was one of the elite quarterbacks. The Chargers lost in the playoffs annually I believe because they were cheaply managed, injury riddled, cursed to be in the more competitive conference with Pats/Colts/Steelers/Ravens, and rarely were they constructed to have a balanced, complementary team despite some talented individuals that put up eye popping stats any given year, such as Antonio Cromartie, Shawne Merriman, Shaun Phillips, Quenten Jammer, Luis Castilo, Antonio Gates, Vincent Jackson, and Eric Weddle. The team relied heavily on the passing offense after LaDainian Tomlinson’s peak which was early in Rivers’ career. Despite the ChargIRs being one dimensional and flawed, Rivers emerge for a majority of his career as a fairly clutch and prolific passer, leader, and if nothing else regular season winner. As an individual at the QB position Rivers is one of the greats historically as well. The chargers make the playoffs only twice in the last 10 years with Rivers...I don't said this is his fault but he was not a regular season winner.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 minutes ago, Steelersfan43 said: The chargers make the playoffs only twice in the last 10 years with Rivers...I don't said this is his fault but he was not a regular season winner.... Ehh, he was apart of four losing seasons totals from 2006 to 2020. And one of those four losing seasons was 7-9. He went to the Colts his final year playing and the team went 11-5. Pretty consistent winner is you ask me. Of the rest of his years, the Chargers went 8-8 twice and 9-7 four times. They really only competed in Rivers second half of his career because he was their QB angrily throwing them into wins where possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddHatter Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 2 minutes ago, DoleINGout said: Early in Rivers career he was a pedestrian QB surrounded by great talent on a team that underachieved. After about three or four years as the starter Rivers got better and better each year and was one of the elite quarterbacks. The Chargers lost in the playoffs annually I believe because they were cheaply managed, injury riddled, cursed to be in the more competitive conference with Pats/Colts/Steelers/Ravens, and rarely were they constructed to have a balanced, complementary team despite some talented individuals that put up eye popping stats any given year, such as Antonio Cromartie, Shawne Merriman, Shaun Phillips, Quenten Jammer, Luis Castilo, and Eric Weddle. The team relied heavily on the passing offense after LaDainian Tomlinson’s peak which was early in Rivers’ career. Despite the ChargIRs being one dimensional and flawed, Rivers emerge for a majority of his career as a fairly clutch and prolific passer, leader, and if nothing else regular season winner. As an individual at the QB position Rivers is one of the greats historically as well. His regular season win:loss is like 1.2:1 - not exactly a great record even in the regular season. Define elite, because I think he was always in that top 10 but never top 5 category. Efficiency wise he was a 7.8y/a 5.2TD% 2.6INT% 65Comp% guy with a 95PSR. He averaged roughly 2 4QC and 2 GWD per 16 games for his career. For comparison- Romo was a 7.9y/a 5.7TD% 2.7INT% 65Comp% guy with a 97.1 PSR. He averaged 3 4QC and 3 GWD per 16 games for his career. Other than playing 20 years, there’s really no difference in Rivers and Romo as QBs go. They were both never elite but in that very good category (5-10), Rivers just did it longer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 3 minutes ago, MaddHatter said: Other than playing 20 years, there’s really no difference in Rivers and Romo as QBs go. Romo years were my favorite years of the NFL and I liked Romo but he only played like eight true seasons. Discounting longevity and sustained success like Rivers had despite the lack of playoff success and functional organization around him is a huge oversight in my opinion and where I think our disagreement/evaluation is primarily. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 7 minutes ago, MaddHatter said: Define elite, because I think he was always in that top 10 but never top 5 category. Played as well as the best in at least a few of his seasons without the same accolades or fanfare and national media attention. Always hovered around the top and firmly inside the top 10 for definite majority of career. Played as integral a part in his teams chances of winning as the other elite QB’s did for their teams and was a leader for the Chargers franchise that was rudderless and as we know relocated during his playing career which is exceptionally unique and he hardly missed a beat. Didn’t regularly struggle with turnovers or dumb football plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddHatter Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 5 minutes ago, DoleINGout said: Romo years were my favorite years of the NFL and I liked Romo but he only played like eight true seasons. Discounting longevity and sustained success like Rivers had despite the lack of playoff success and functional organization around him is a huge oversight in my opinion and where I think our disagreement/evaluation is primarily. That’s fair - his longevity is impressive - second to Favre if I recall correctly. He was just always a “Very good” QB, never Elite or Top 5 to me. If it was HoVG, he would be a sure thing. And trust me, I hate that Eli and Ben are going to be in the HoF over the “better” QBs in Rivers and Romo, but the rings make the “fame” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, Xmad said: Rivers will simply because of legacy. What legacy? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoleINGout Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 18 minutes ago, MaddHatter said: That’s fair - his longevity is impressive - second to Favre if I recall correctly. He was just always a “Very good” QB, never Elite or Top 5 to me. If it was HoVG, he would be a sure thing. And trust me, I hate that Eli and Ben are going to be in the HoF over the “better” QBs in Rivers and Romo, but the rings make the “fame” I think Eli is maybe in hall of fame for the fame aspect of the games he was apart of that are memorable and for the fact that he was traded at the draft and just always seemed surrounded by drama. He is actually a hall of very good category player though on hid own merit I agree, because at worst he was a turnover machine without the elite ceiling or sustained or even stacked back to back seasons of borderline elite production/winning. Romo never won in playoffs and sort of had some late game mistakes that haunted his career plus it was short. Roethlisberger and Rivers are slept on by you I feel but at least you stated why for Rivers you thought that. Big Ben like Rivers began his career an average guy surrounded by talent and took a little longer to develop into a consistently top 10 guy but at his peak he was elite for a handful of years too with the added accomplishments and threat of being a winner in the playoffs and elite historically late in games in comeback efforts. He was also in a system that emphasized the run for over half his career and rarely if ever played behind even a decent pass blocking offensive line. His size and scrambling to extend plays are under-celebrated aspects of his game that by today’s standards would be definitively elite should he be reincarnated and supported by these pass game rules and offenses today. Edited February 4 by DoleINGout 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 21 minutes ago, seminoles1 said: What legacy? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmad Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, MaddHatter said: Disagree completely- he won’t sniff the HOF at any point in the next 40 years He'll likely get in within 2-3 years of the 2004 QB class after Ben and Eli get in. 2 hours ago, seminoles1 said: What legacy? He is very much the Dan Fouts of his era and we all know Fouts got in. Plus finishing top 10 in most career categories puts you in "top 10 of all time" and while he definitely ain't that good he's very much a top 25 QB all time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagahide13 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Russel Wilson will have had 2 different coaches jettison him even when he was playing pretty well. I'm not sure what to make of it. His recent statistics are also WAY better than his reputation. He's not "the guy" but is incredibly effective. He just makes decisions coaches hate and often misses open reads. Russel Wilson feels like a guy that is constantly in a good spot but doesn't live up to expectations. (Stafford feels like someone put into bad situations that elevates himself and his teammates. Gimme Stafford.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, Xmad said: He is very much the Dan Fouts of his era and we all know Fouts got in. Plus finishing top 10 in most career categories puts you in "top 10 of all time" and while he definitely ain't that good he's very much a top 25 QB all time. Fouts blows Rivers away on paper. Context would be Rivers was stuck in a crazy good QB era, but I don't think Rivers ends up getting in. His legacy is that he was like the 6th best QB in the league for the majority of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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